Sales rep relations

[varmint]

I wonder what makes a sales rep think it is ok to offer free product &/or perks to employees without first consulting with the person responsible for the account? This again happened with a new rep in my office, while at the same time I was being told, "sorry no more discounts on our products for you without a higher volume"!!!
So here we go off to a bad start with a new rep who's product I like. If I want to give my employee free products it is my decision only, after all I pay the bills!!!!
Why don't manufacturers recognize this & teach the reps when they hire them, especially if they are new to the optical field?
Ok enough venting for today.
Jim:finger:

[Johns]

I agree totally ! Is this a "new/new" rep, or just new to the area? Maybe they just have no idea. Call him and air it out, they might appreciate the education.

[Mikef]

This is a tough one!


I often get asked by accounts for personal frames. Some owners could care less and some tell me not to do it! When they tell me not to: it is more than not because the employee is asking every rep for something!

My company is giving mostly free frames with orders! When I send the free frames they are usually for the board!

I would tell you employees that they need to clear all perks with you first! I would also tell the reps and if the try to sneak one past you "make them pay!"

Michael

[Robert Wagner]

Varment,

This is a subject that gets my full attention!

I couldn't agree with you more in this matter!

What if, lets say lens company was "giving away" a fun-filled trip to wherever if you (an employee) sell enough of this new product in a timely fashion.

Now that employee has met the requirements and has "won" the big prize. Could that person have won if he/she didn't work for you? I mean you and you only as the owner/bill payer must know about any "special offers" made to your practice and if YOU THE OWNER/BILL PAYER deems it O.K. to give one of your employees that "winning prize" that is up to you and you only!

Sorry I'm so hot about this issue, but in my years of practice it is getting worse and worse and it seems to me to be undermining the owner/bill payer almost like cheating the system.

Why don't the company's that give away things offer to the owner/bill payer a discount on there billing or reduce the price of their goods for all the "selling" your office has done?
:o


Well enough of my venting (thank you)

Robert

[Cindy Hamlin]

varmint said:
I wonder what makes a sales rep think it is ok to offer free product &/or perks to employees without first consulting with the person responsible for the account? This again happened with a new rep in my office, while at the same time I was being told, "sorry no more discounts on our products for you without a higher volume"!!!
So here we go off to a bad start with a new rep who's product I like. If I want to give my employee free products it is my decision only, after all I pay the bills!!!!
Why don't manufacturers recognize this & teach the reps when they hire them, especially if they are new to the optical field?
Ok enough venting for today.
Jim:finger:

Varmint,
Let's look at it from the perspective of the frame rep:

1. He want you to buy more product.
2. He wants the customers to see his product.
3. Customers see the people that sell them glasses' glasses.
4. He sells more glasses.

I sold many a frame because someone said "I want what you are wearing." True, the rep should come to you and say I want to give each associate glasses, but isn't it a win-win situation? They get glasses, he sells more glasses and you get more money!

[varmint]

Cindy, I have considered the perspective of the rep. The bottom line is I, as business owner/ bill payer/ employer, make the decision as to whose & what product I want to offer my customers, right?
I also believe it is my choice as to which reps product my employee wears, and which employee I want to give free product and/or perks to.
I have had in the past a somewhat less than honest employee who took advantage of a reps offer and sold the product to a neighbor. The rep even went as far as to deliver the product to the employee's home & let her pay for it directly. This was a frame company who required me to purchase a minimum order before I could even open an account!!! So I guess my point is I agree with employee's wearing the product that you want to sell, but i disagree the rep should be the one to decide who gets what free in my office.
As personnel manager in a large company I doubt you let employees see reps, but if you did, how would you feel if an employee placed an order for a dozen frames from the rep so they got a gift from them, you had to pay for the frames, and you were not aware of it?

[Diane]

In my office, as owner, I made a point to meet with each representative, personally, and explain my policy to them. They were introduced to the frame/lens buyer, then. That sets the tone with each one and they seemed to appreciate it as well. Any frames, lenses that were given, discounted, I HAD to know about. Any other spiffs had to be given to the office. In my policy manual, it was made clear what were employee benefits, and what was not. Failure to follow the office policy were grounds for dismissal. I never had a problem, because all employees knew the rules.

Any other freebies definitely belonged to the office. I could then use them as gifts to my employees for excellent performance, etc. Sometimes they were used as door prizes for open houses, etc. I got a trip once, and gave it to an employee and she never went...duh. I allowed employees to receive tee shirts and small items, but probably should have made them the property of the office as well.

In reality, I have always wished that NO gifts or spiffs were given. Just reduce the bottom line...but that is part of the business.

Diane

[Pete Hanlin]

First, let me say that as a Practice Manager I have been burnt in the past by reps who- for lack of a better term- conspire with employees.

That said, I could not disagree more regarding personal frames from reps to employees. I would be hard pressed to think of a better way to unmotivate your Opticians than to disallow the receipt of perks from a rep. As has been mentioned, the owner pays the bills. The staff makes or breaks the practice, however.

I found that Diane's approach works well with reps. Meet with them up front, and respectfully inform them that- while I don't mind if they give the occasional frame or shirt to a staff member- I do require that they consult with me before offering any kind of cash promotion, prize, etc. Also, it really helps if you distribute "freebies" among the entire staff (we collected them over a year and would raffle them off at the last staff meeting of the year).

If you want to turn over your staff in the course of a year or two, go ahead and scarf up any incentives your employees earn from companies and keep them for yourselves. Yep, you'll get to keep the $100 or so in merchandise- but you'll probably spend more than that in "Help Wanted" ads and patient comments like "Gee, it seems as if there's always someone different working here every time I visit."

What is the worst abuse of this policy I've ever seen? I went to an outing with the employee who was my frame buyer one weekend, and noticed her entire family sporting new frames from the same vendor. When I commented on this, she explained that the company had a "buy a dozen, get six free" special going on- so she had dispensed the six "free" pairs to her family. This breech of ethics (I mean, really) resulted in a new frame buyer for the practice!

[Johns]

"Conspire" sums it up.

It becomes good guy (your employee)/bad guy (you) & the rep.

[varmint]

Diane, your idea would work well except in the case of a new rep who pops in to "intoduce themself" without an appointment. I don't think I have more than 2 -3 reps who have been the same in the past 5 years. Having employee guidelines works as well, but not all employees will 100% adhere, especially when they believe they were reponsible for "earning" the reward offered.

Pete, if an employee leaves because they can't have all the "perks" the reps offer to the office, I wouldn't consider them a very valued employee. My example of the employee who sold product to a neighbor was one who I trusted & rewarded for her performance and one year I even gave her a used car I planned on trading in. After letting her go, I learned she had even kept all the small x-mas gifts dropped off from my landlord, MD's offices, & labs.

As Johns said "conspire" sums it up. It is very hard to find & keep good employees, so we don't need this kind of temtation to turn a good employee bad.

I guess my feelings are, if a rep thinks it's ok to bypass me when offering employee perks, then it is a rep I won't do business with.

I'm done ranting on this , as you can tell it rubs a raw nerve.

[Pete Hanlin]

Actually, I was the one who suggested the term "conspire," and Johns was agreeing- so I understand what you're saying.

You're right, it is extremely hard to find good employees. I heard a very useful phrase at a management seminar once-
"You never expect an employee to steal from you- if you did, you wouldn't have hired him or her in the first place. Therefore, it stands to reason it will always come as a surprise when you find an employee stealing from you."

No doubt most people will screw you given the chance, but I'm also an advocate of really taking care of the ones who don't- which I'm sure you do. Apparently, this rep thing just really does rub you the wrong way.

[varmint]

Pete,
I guess the reason this annoys me so much is I have not seen a rep for over 5 years that really did a good job for the best interest of my office. I remember when reps would come out & hold training classes for employees, then give each one a free frame for attending, go out with us to events & demo and show product, held in store trunk shows & donate frames for free drawings, did an honest inventory of the product you had used & helped you decide what may work in your market based on their companies tracking all without trying to make you feel like you owed them a purchase. The best rep I ever had, worked for Tura, therefore I used more of their product than any other company. Since she left about 6-7 years ago, I bet haven't seen her replacement three times. Boy I sure do miss using the Tura product!!!
I did see you had suggested the term conspired, but I mentioned Johns cause I liked the way he summed it up, although your point was good also.

[John R]

As a employee who never gets to see reps (thank god) nothing irks the other staff more than seeing ONE person get all the freebies. Diane's has the right approach make sure everybody knows the rules. Everybody in the company works to the same aim so its only fair that everybody gets a fair share.
We all know you get nothing for free in this world so that rep offering a free pair of frames to the buyer knows he stands a better chance of sales later on..Dont they call it bribery in other walks of life.....

[Chris Ryser]

Same problem in other ereas. Being a manufacturer some of my emplyees suddenly started to get tickets to prime hockey games with top seats from a air-freight forwarder.

I put a sudden stop to it. Called the company and told them if the practice would continue, that day's shipment would be the last they would ever do for my company. The tickets could come to the company officially and the would be given to whom we decided.

The practice stopped as fast as it started.

[Texas Ranger]

I suppose we all have to deal with "outside spiff" issues; that said, I don't believe in sales "spiffs" at all; our staff, including me is paid to do their jobs, if they don't do their job well, it's likely the job won't be able to afford their position. in regard to rep spiffs, I do not like it for reps to tell staff that they will comp them $xx for each frame they sell; I don't even do that! like I said, it's their job. I don't won't it to be a concern when frame stying, recommending lens designs, etc. If someone, say Essilor wants to have overall sales spiff programs, fine, we'd likely use their lenses like we always have, but we have greatly benefited by some of their programs. but it's a STAFF deal. Of course, when I won the trip to Paris, I went....

[EyeManFla]

I've banned reps who have come into my office and have done end runs around me.
NOBODY in my office gets a free anything without asking me first...that even encludes the doctor.......
Most of my reps wised up and make appointments. and when they show up...they bring donuts.....and nothing else.
I want discounts of my product, not freebies for myself and my staff. But if properly approached, I will let staffers receive frames and such. It should be everybody or nobody.

[Pete Hanlin]

Having come across as an advocate of reps, let me say that nothing was more exasperating to me than having to deal with them. This is why I usually tried to find an employee to handle this task under some guidelines.

One way to "bring them into line" regarding how many frames you end up with is to keep a detailed monthly inventory. In one shop, I was able to track monthly sales against both total sales and board space. So, when the rep came in I was well-prepared for the dance. I can't stand confrontation, so for me it was really easy to simply point out that the rep currently had 24% of my board space- but had only accounted for 18% of my monthly sales over the past 3 months. Therefore, they could swap out stuff, but I wouldn't be buying anything this visit.

I think this approach is called "Board Management," and it always worked best for me.

One of MY pet peeves with reps was when they would sell out of their bag to my patients. I remember one time when a rep sold a frame to a female patient... The patient left before the rep, and as the rep was leaving, I double-checked to make sure the patient's frame was included in my order. "Oh, that frame won't be in for about three weeks- its on backorder," was the reply. Well, suffice it to say the rep left sans her sample frame.

The other line that used to really burn me was "I drove an hour out of my way to see your account." Well, since this statement was usually made by a rep who had stopped in without an appointment, it was fairly easy to say "Well, you can save yourself an hour next time by calling ahead!"

Oh well, I suppose everyone has to make a living somehow.

[aaron]

One of the first things that companies want to know before they hire you to represent them is how well you take rejection. There is a reason for this.

I used to rep for Charmant and before that I dispensed and purchased inventory. This gave me a kind of heads up on what to do, and not to do. What I found out is that many rep's come from other industries where such behavior is not frowned upon. What I also found out is that there are alot of shady cats out there that are not very honest and will take a calculated risk in order to pad an order.

So I would say there is no avoiding the occational run-in. Bad experiances can be minimized by making sure your staff is taken care of so that they don't feel the need to accept the reps behind the back offers. And making sure the reps understand your policies. You should never put up with dishonesty from a rep no matter what they carry. I did well because I was always up front and respectful. Business is business....:bbg:



ad

[rep]

Hi Everyone:

I understand both sides of this issue because I have been there and would like some input from everyone as to how you as a sales rep would deal with accounts that allow sales associates to receive spiffs ( sometimes with the knowledge of the the owner, sometimes without the knowledge of the owner) on products sold.

Pete this completely distorts the sell through numbers on items on board space management.

I have seen every kind of kickback you can imagine and if you are not personally buying your product and services you may be unaware of what is actually being passed under the table from not only frame reps, but lab reps, contact lens reps and anyone selling products and services to your business.

Do you control which lab the order is ordered from as well as what frames are being ordered from which companies? In a past life I had one new employee quit because he could not order product from the local lab of his choice? I have no doubt that there was a kickback involved if he could move my account with the local lab.

Where do you draw the line on gifts? If food is acceptable in the office: is lunch, dinner, baseball tickets, concert tickets, shirts, coupons, perfume, jewelry ? Some offices encourage and expect all of the above and more or you simply don't get a chance to make a sale. Many of the buyers have no vested interest in the company they don't care if the purchase is in the best interest of the practice or office. They only care what they can get out of the deal themselves.

Getting an andience with the owner or doctor is next to impossible in some offices. Varmint if the sales rep had asked to see you would you have taken the time to see him or her?

Our company discounts frames to office personnel - but we always try and persuade the buyer to put in two because usually they will have a patient/customer who will want one like it. Is it the groups consensus that this is wrong?

Finally, there are a number of accounts that constantly ask for personaly frames to wear and they simply sell them to their customers, never intending to wear the product. What is even more offensive is when they ask for product for personal use they refuse to carry in their stores. Sunglasses are particularly a problem area with this type of abuse.

Just a few other things to consider in the overall picture.

[varmint]

rep said:


Getting an andience with the owner or doctor is next to impossible in some offices. Varmint if the sales rep had asked to see you would you have taken the time to see him or her?

In this case I made the appointment with the rep so I could help a patient & replace some product needed, and I also wanted to meet the new rep, however an issue arised preventing me from being able to stay for the appointment and the rep was not available to get my message nor did she answer her cell phone or return my calls so we could reschedule. I had to have the patient return a third time to accommodate her needs since I couldn't get the rep to reschedule. Ever notice once you let a rep schedule an appointment they seem to fall off the face of the earth until that appointment?

I think times have changed in business, and as an independent we are becoming more & more the minority in our field, so I think the frame mfg & labs (& owners) need to wake up & realize that all these so called perks are not what keeps us in business. I do all my lab work through a lab who doesn't use reps, doesn't give perks, doesn't offer discounts to the owner/doctor/employee, but gives me the best service/ quality/price on all the products. Now if I could find a frame mfg to do this.
I & my employees do our own board management.
I often wonder how long it will be before the only reps needed are one for each company to deal strictly with the corporate frame buyer, or how long will it be before they send there own frame buyers to the frame mfg to get the lowest price on the product eliminating a need for reps. I know some do it already, so with changing times & economy whatever owner/doctor is not watching & controlling his bottom line & allowing his/her employees & reps to play this game that has no value to the bottom line, it may be sooner than later.
I know the argument "wear what you sell", but give me the best price on ALL my product & I will pay for & wear the product I want to sell.

[paw]

I wear contacts, but I make a point to wear glasses in the office because it does generate interest. Any frame I wear, I've had patients say they like it and want one too. So we always carry on the board whatever the staff is wearing. Same goes for sunglasses.

Our Lux rep recently offered free sunglasses to each of the staff (presumably the Dr too!). The benefit to him is it helps to sell his frames, and the benefit to us is it makes the staff happy. The Dr doesn't mind if the staff enjoys a freebie because it is a perk of the job.

We NEVER ask for freebies. We are very strict about that. But we accept what is offered, which has been frames (occasionally) and candy (every rep visit).

[varmint]

I can't believe this rep. I hashed my feeling over with this rep and she said she understood & appreciated knowing my policies, that this would help her making her calls as she was just new to the optical industry. So I was kind & invited her to a fashion show/open house promoted by our whole shopping center. She offers to donate a frame so we can hold a drawing for our customers, however when I ask her she tells me she will do 40% off of two frames instead. One for my own use & one for the promotion. I agree, but not too happy, then she not only bills me full price for ALL products, but again offers free product to my employee behind my back during the show!!! She also comes to the fashion show dressed like a bum, all frumpy & blouse not even tucked in!!! So now it's time to go to the mfg & complain. If they don't care, all their product is going back.
Thanks for the opportunity to vent here on this one...I needed that.
Jim

[karen]

Lots of food for thought here...not much feedback from the rep side so I thought I would chime in. I personally think this whole spiff thing has reached a point of ridiculousness that has made it difficult for anyone who doesn't have some sort of incentive to get their product used. Many of the major manufacturers have some sort of offer going and I have had many accounts switch from lens to lens just based on how much they were making on the spiffs. It does not foster product loyalty (unless you are just loyal to $$) You should use a product because it is well made, because you have fit it successfully, because you know the company will back you up if there are issues, because since you have used it you have had little or no non-adapts...
As much as the reps should NEVER sign someone up for a spiff without going through the decision maker, the staff should stop holding their hands out and saying "what's in it for me". I don't think any manufacturer-frame, lens, solution, whatever-should have to pay someone to try their product. It has created a monster!!!

Me personally, I would appreciate if everyone had Diane's approach. I always prefer to know what policies and procedures in the office are right up front. I try hard to keep my intergrity in place, it is really all I have to offer considering everyone else out there is essentially selling the same thing for close to the same price. It is all that separates me from the competition (along with customer service)

jumping down off my sopbox now...;)

[mitchellvision]

varmint said:
In this case I made the appointment with the rep so I could help a patient & replace some product needed, and I also wanted to meet the new rep, however an issue arised preventing me from being able to stay for the appointment and the rep was not available to get my message nor did she answer her cell phone or return my calls so we could reschedule. I had to have the patient return a third time to accommodate her needs since I couldn't get the rep to reschedule. Ever notice once you let a rep schedule an appointment they seem to fall off the face of the earth until that appointment?

I think times have changed in business, and as an independent we are becoming more & more the minority in our field, so I think the frame mfg & labs (& owners) need to wake up & realize that all these so called perks are not what keeps us in business. I do all my lab work through a lab who doesn't use reps, doesn't give perks, doesn't offer discounts to the owner/doctor/employee, but gives me the best service/ quality/price on all the products. Now if I could find a frame mfg to do this.
I & my employees do our own board management.
I often wonder how long it will be before the only reps needed are one for each company to deal strictly with the corporate frame buyer, or how long will it be before they send there own frame buyers to the frame mfg to get the lowest price on the product eliminating a need for reps. I know some do it already, so with changing times & economy whatever owner/doctor is not watching & controlling his bottom line & allowing his/her employees & reps to play this game that has no value to the bottom line, it may be sooner than later.
I know the argument "wear what you sell", but give me the best price on ALL my product & I will pay for & wear the product I want to sell.

Unfortunately, this is not a one size fits all business. Every major company hires reps to help increase their business and try to add a personal touch. In a perfect world this person would be someone who tries to know you and your business and partner with you to increase sales for both of you. There are as many different personalities, buying habits, needs, wants, desires, etc. to deal with. Sales reps are not no less flawed than for a majority of people who work in other industries including opticians. I have been in offices and watched unprofessional, uniformed "opticians" that have no clue what they are doing. I think the most positive approach is remember that this a people business. Take time for you to know the rep and let the rep get to know you. Most all of my accounts are not just sales they are also friends. Friends that I wouldn't do anything to hurt them or their business. I visit offices that have never purchased any product for me and I don't try to sell. They know what I do and to reach me if they want something. I to offices that haven't purchased anything from in 3 years. They are friends and I like to visit with them. There is no guarantee on anything in life; however, if you take the time to establish a relationship there is greater chance that things will go right and no wrong.

[Lisa Lingard]

I, too, see both sides of the picture. To those of you with office policies prohibiting any spiffs to staff...my question to you is are you available when the rep calls to schedule an appointment? Is the spiff offered as a last resort to get past your sentry? Could it be that your staff is to blame for asking for free or heavily discounted product behind your back? This happens ALL the time. Is it a reps job to police your staff if you havent laid out the rules for them? There have been some mentions about punishing a sales rep for spiffing the staff by dropping their lines. This seems fair to me. What are you prepared to do when the staff "sneaks" a frame or a pair of lenses?

In the many years I spent on the road as a lab rep, I cant begin to tell you the amazing "requests" I have received from staff. This even includes being asked to pay for a wedding cake as the optician decided that her wedding was to be completely "sponsored" by those companies that she did business with. I refused...lost a big chunk of business...even after alerting the Boss. Ive also been witness to greedy owners that provide a mere 20% discount off full retail price to staff for their personal eyewear.

I firmly believe that spiffs should be presented to and approved by the business owner. I found it very helpful when an account verbally gave (preferrably with staff present) or sent me his "rules" as it then ensures good communication and working relationship. Just my two cents worth.