New Sola Teflon coating

[LO1007]

Just curious if anyone has heard about the new coating from Sola, the Teflon, is it available, are you using it and what does it cost?

[Chris Ryser]

LO1007 said:
Just curious if anyone has heard about the new coating from Sola, the Teflon, is it available, are you using it and what does it cost?

It is one of the newest fashionable slick coats that are put on top of the AR coating.

They can also be applied in the office , lab, or store by yourself and the cost this way is aboiut $ .40

Some of them are available with anti-fog and anti-fog and anti-stat properties.

[Refractingoptician.com]

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[Chris Ryser]

Gary said:
Hi Chris:
Do you sell this coating? What are the drawbacks of it ?
Gary

I was the first one to develop it. I do not promote any products on Optiboard but if you send me an e-mail I will give you the details.

[Jim G]

Just to build a little on what Chris said re: AR coatings.

The general term used for these coatings is "hydrophobic," or water hating. These coatings have done as much as improved ARC application techniques to improve the breed over the years.

These coatings typically are applied to the AR coated lens as a liquid, a fog in a light vacuum or actually in the AR chamber as the last step. I believe the Teflon process uses the in-chamber process. Many manufacturers add the hydophobic layer when counting the number of layers to their coating giving a 6 (or 12 on both sides) layer AR coating.

These coatings fill the spaces in the AR coating making the surface smoother--remember all those shredded tissues in the early days? They also help the lens resist smudging and make the lenses much easier to clean. All people pleasing traits.

There are also tests defined by the AR Council to determine the usefulness of the various hydrophobic coatings.

[Chris Ryser]

Jim G said:
Just to build a little on what Chris said re: AR coatings.

The general term used for these coatings is "hydrophobic," or water hating. These coatings have done as much as improved ARC application techniques to improve the breed over the years.

The latest is in addition to the product described by Jim. It is a coating on top of the Ar coating with the Hydrophobic included that had been appl;ied in the AR coating process.

This coating is of the higly slippery type and can contain ANTI-FOG and ANTI-STAT properties. It is already widely used in Europe amd Asia and recently it is becoming big fashion in Japan.

[Darryl Meister]

Since I am an employee of SOLA, I do not usually respond to product threads. However, I couldn't help myself with this one, since a rather sophisticated product of ours is being reduced to nothing more than an in-office lens treatment, which is far from the case. First of all, the Teflon(r) coating system comprises several components layers that employ advanced, proprietary technologies.

In essence, "Teflon(r) EasyCare" is an integrated coating system that delivers three very important, consumer-driven benefits relative to traditional coatings: clearer, cleaner, and tougher. SOLA's Teflon(r) EasyCare coating is an advanced, proprietary system comprising multiple unique component layers, which have been specifically engineered to deliver maximum performance, convenience, and protection. This integrated system includes an extremely tough hard coating that delivers exceptional scratch and abrasion resistance; a unique antistatic system that prevents the electrostatic attraction of particulates; a multilayer antireflection stack that achieves the lowest reflectance available; and an extremely slick top coating that is both hydrophobic (water-repelling) and oleophobic (oil-repelling).

Sorry if that sounds a bit like marketing jargon. The ultra-tough hard coating technology incorporated in the Teflon(r) EasyCare system is a thermally cured organosiloxane based system with colloidal silica (the chief ingredient in glass) dispersed throughout its matrix. The antistatic system comprises an electrically conductive oxide layer, which dissipates electrostatic charge, encapsulated between two layers of silica. The antistatic system and antireflection stack are applied using a high-energy, ion-assisted deposition process for maximum durability and adhesion. Additionally, the reflectance of the antireflection stack has been optimized to deliver a pleasing reflex color with an exceptionally low luminous reflectance. A high quality top-coating made from fluorinated polysilazane with low surface energy completes the system by delivering hydrophobic and oleophobic properties. Patents are currently pending for these new technologies, where applicable.

Best regards,
Darryl
(SOLA Technical Marketing)

[Chris Ryser]

Darryl Meister said:
Since I am an employee of SOLA, I do not usually respond to product threads....................

by delivering hydrophobic and oleophobic properties...........

Patents are currently pending for these new technologies, where applicable.

Best regards,
Darryl
(SOLA Technical Marketing)

Question..........................

This basic idea of treatment has been around on the market in various form and shapes and names over the last 12 years since my company came first came out with a product that is doing everything you claim in your statement, (first advertising in 1991), sold and used worldwide from Europe to Asia

It has become a generic type treatment with of course a superb "Trade name" in your case.

So, what is patent pending, and where? ....................That is the question.

Edited 2 hours later

PS:

I just looked a SOLAS full page ad in Vision Monday and besides all statements about protected trade names, there is nothing i can see that Teflon coating is patent pending, which would be the proper thing to do.

[Darryl Meister]

This basic idea of treatment has been around on the market in various form and shapes and names over the last 12 years since my company came first came out with a product that is doing everything you claim in your statement...

Again, you are mistakenly comparing the entire Teflon(r) system to a simple hydrophobic coating. Teflon(r) comprises several component layers, not just a hyrdrophobic coating. Teflon(r) is a complete system, including a hard coating, an antistatic layer, an antireflection layer, and -- finally -- a top coating. To the best of my knowledge, no $0.40 spray-on coating provides "ultra-tough" scratch resistance (i.e., several times the abrasion resistance of hard resin), permanent antistatic properties, and almost no reflectance, in addition to hydrophobic and oleophobic properties.

Moreover, the antistatic properties of the Teflon(r) system are both effective and permanent, since they are provided by actual oxide layers in the thin film stack. Spray-on coatings that provide some antistatic benefits by virture of their slippery nature (that is, reduced triboelectric static caused by friction) will eventually wear off.

I just looked a SOLAS full page ad in Vision Monday and besides all statements about protected trade names, there is nothing i can see that Teflon coating is patent pending, which would be the proper thing to do

Again, Teflon(r) compromises several technologies. We obviously could not "patent" Teflon since it is brandname for several different product types. However, we have applied for a patent for the antistatic technology in question. The choice of using "patented" in an advertisement is a marketing decision, and nothing more. Further, we often prefer to wait until a patent has been fully granted for a technology, so that we may refer to it as "patented," rather than using "patent pending," which is less compelling.

[Chris Ryser]

Darryl Meister said:
Again, you are mistakenly comparing the entire Teflon(r) system to a simple hydrophobic coating. Teflon(r) comprises several component layers, not just a hyrdrophobic coating. Teflon(r) is a complete system, including a hard coating, an antistatic layer, an antireflection layer, and -- finally -- a top coating. To the best of my knowledge, no $0.40 spray-on coating provides "ultra-tough" scratch resistance (i.e., several times the abrasion resistance of hard resin), permanent antistatic properties, and almost no reflectance, in addition to hydrophobic and oleophobic properties.

QUESTION.................... Who ever mentioned a 40 cent spray coating?

Darryl Meister said:
Moreover, the antistatic properties of the Teflon(r) system are both effective and permanent, since they are provided by actual oxide layers in the thin film stack. Spray-on coatings that provide some antistatic benefits by virture of their slippery nature (that is, reduced triboelectric static caused by friction) will eventually wear off.

QUESTION..................Again who mentioned a spray coating?

Darryl Meister said:
Again, Teflon(r) compromises several technologies. We obviously could not "patent" Teflon since it is brandname for several different product types. However, we have applied for a patent for the antistatic technology in question. The choice of using "patented" in an advertisement is a marketing decision, and nothing more. Further, we often prefer to wait until a patent has been fully granted for a technology, so that we may refer to it as "patented," rather than using "patent pending," which is less compelling.

REMARK....................Permanent Antistatic and ANTIFOG features do not exist. The chemical reaction to do the job weakens with time.

(In Japan fire department employees who have to wear this type of lenses, have to change glasses every 9 month because the anti fog prperties are exhausted. They all loose their efficiency between 6 to 12 month.)

FURTHERMORE...........The other coating you belittle is made of the same material as you described in your earlier posting.

AND..........It is not a spray coating as you say, it is a dip coating as most probably is yours.

AND............It has similar features as yours INLUDING your oleophobic plus one you dont even have, the rayophobic

AND............ it has been around for years.

AND...........It can be applied very easily as an after market product (BUT NOT SPRAYED ON AS YOU SAY)

AND.......... therefore the optical retailer can apply it himself

[Darryl Meister]

QUESTION.................... Who ever mentioned a 40 cent spray coating?

Sorry, I probably should have assumed that the 40 cent coating described in your first post was a dip coating in the first place. That was an oversight on my part. Nevertheless, the method of application of your top coating was never really the issue, whether it is sprayed on, dipped on, or smeared on.

Permanent Antistatic and ANTIFOG features do not exist. The chemical reaction to do the job weakens with time.

The Teflon(r) antistatic system does not rely on the chemical reaction of a top coating, which may eventually degrade or wear off, but rather the electrically conductive nature of one of the oxide layers in the AR stack. For the remainder of your questions and remarks, I will refer you back to my earlier posts, which I believe have already addressed them.

Best regards,
Darryl

[Chris Ryser]

Here is the rundown on Antistatic properties out of my own kitchen as well as yours BECAUSE THATS THE OFFICAL EXPLANATION OF ANTISTATIC PROPERTIES:


Electric nonconductivity is one of the various advantages that plastics possess generally. However, there are cases where this advantage turns to be a defect that static electric charge accumulates on the surface of plastics. Static electricity gives troubles such as electric shock, dust attraction and sticking of films.


Antistatic agents are used to solve the problems as related above by giving antistatic properties to plastics without altering the general mechanical properties of the plastics.


Antistatic agents have in their molecules both hydrophobic and hydrophilic radicals. Practically, the hydrophobic radicals turn to the surface of plastics, while the hydrophilic radicals turn to the air attracting the moisture in the atmosphere.


The static charge accumulation in plastics is dissipated, through the conductivity of water absorbed by antistatic agents.


At the same time, antistatic agents show the action of reducing the accumulation of frictional static charge. Thus, antistatic effect is obtained.
:hammer:



It does not matter if the coating is called "TEFLON" and is made of a siloxane as you stated above on an earlier posting,.........

or

if the coating is called "EASY CLEAN" or "SIMPLY EASY CLEAN) or any other name under the sun and is ALSO made of a siloxane................

Therefore we can conclude that these products are made with the same materials and both have the same resulting end effect............with one difference......................

PRICE.............is always higher when you have two identical frames made in the same factory in China and one of them is sold under a designer name like ARMANI or DIOR or CHANEL ect. and the other frame is sold under some generic name or model number. Both frames do the same service , look the same, last the same time and probably dye the same time under normal use.

[Darryl Meister]

Chris Ryser said:
...Therefore we can conclude that these products are made with the same materials and both have the same resulting end effect...

That is completely incorrect, and a rather uninformed assertion to make in light of my earlier explanation of the various materials, features, and technologies that the Teflon(r) system employs. We don't seem to be communicating with each other clearly here, so I will simply refer you back to my earlier responses that describe the exact nature of Teflon(r), rather than confuse this thread further with redundant content. If you still feel that I have not satisfactorily addressed your questions or concerns, please feel free to e-mail me directly.

Best regards,
Darryl

[Chris Ryser]

siloxane
SYLLABICATION: si·lox·ane
PRONUNCIATION: AUDIO: s-lksn, s- KEY
NOUN: Any of a class of organic or inorganic chemical compounds of silicon, oxygen, and usually carbon and hydrogen, based on the structural unit R2SiO, where R is an alkyl group, usually methyl.
ETYMOLOGY: sil(icon) + ox(ygen) + (meth)ane.




:finger:

[LO1007]

I would really like to refer back to my original question about whether anyone was using and the cost of the lenses??

I really didn't think this thread would go in this direction!! good info but not what I wanted.

Thanks All!!

[Joann Raytar]

So far, none of our labs or distributors are either carrying the product or marketing it to us yet.

[Chris Ryser]

Jo said:
So far, none of our labs or distributors are either carrying the product or marketing it to us yet.

Labs will only carrry materials or do special operations if there is a demand for such.

Just ask the lab to do it and tghey scamble to find out where to get the stuff and how to use it.

Old story, demand and supply. If the retailer does not know about new techniques, neither will the lab. One of them has to be first.

[Jeff Trail]

Jo,

Darryl might be able to answer this but I think that the Teflon coating is going to be an in-house thing, where you use SOLA's labs and have it coated..they make the lens as well...they just made the move here in the U.S. getting into the wholesale market and this is a way to get you to use a SOLA lab :-) That is probably the reason you have not heard anything from your existing lab..
I know it makes it tough to get something used on a wide basis when you hold people over a barrel like this.. better have a great marketing department.. I also see it is in "association with DuPont" I would be interested how much of the diamex formula is in the mix :-)
Darryl, I wouldn't let it bother me to much being compared to something they are doing in Japan and or "over sea's" ... let someone send a lens over there and getting it coated and use the after market dip coating that costs .40 ..shoot you might even get it done cheaper there...just wait till you have to pay $45 or $50 for shipping..than compare the price :-) oh and wait 10 days or longer for it :-)
Also would be interested in some other information that you guys have not been posting when comparing the "over sea's" stuff to ours... I know, having a few "pen pals" in the Asian rim (boy we lowly lab rats get around) that the base compound components in the matrix of material is not the same as we use here so the reflectance and index of the coatings should be shifted more so..
Any way, you have shown great composure in my book Darryl.. :-)

Jeff "grind'em if you can afford'em"Trail

[BobV]

Well, now that all the hubbub has seemed to stop, here's an answer to your original answer. The lenses ARE farmed out to a SOLA lab just as Crizal is farmed out. We are being charged $10 more than what Crizal costs. I have 2 jobs ordered with Teflon, but they have not come back yet. I'm eagerly awaiting their return.

It seems the only drawback is the 1 year, 1 time replacement warranty placed on Teflon A/R. If it really is as good as the ad says, back it up like Crizal. You may have better sales.

Bob V.

[Chris Ryser]

Jeff Trail said:
doing in Japan and or "over sea's" ... let someone send a lens over there and getting it coated

No need to send to Japan, they use the same coating machines

Jeff Trail said:
and use the after market dip coating that costs .40 ..shoot you might even get it done cheaper there...just wait till you have to pay $45 or $50 for shipping..than compare the price :-) oh and wait 10 days or longer for it :-)

The aftermarket "stuff" works. Dont cost much and can be applied by anybody. Its just that the big companies want it all.

Jeff Trail said:
Also would be interested in some other information that you guys have not been posting when comparing the "over sea's" stuff to ours...

The overseas "stuff" is mainly the same "stuff" that you could get here but dont.......... because you dont know about it .........and have not researched the market.
Another reason is that the trade magazines are withholding news releases that originate from small guys that dont have the big dvertising.dollar.

THE BEST SEARCH ENGINE for technical questions, specially optical is:

http://ask.com

Jusr ask normal questions...like "AR Stripper" , "optical lens treatments" and so forth. You will have a maze of answers
coming up.

You will find it all there.


:finger:

[Jeff Trail]

Chris,

First, before making me sound like a complete idiot :-) with those nice little polite jabs

"The overseas "stuff" is mainly the same "stuff" that YOU could get here but DON"T.......... because YOU DON"T KNOW about it .........and HAVE NOT researched the market. "

YOU might be surprised by exactly WHAT I know and use, none of those things you listed I have NOT done some extensive research on, including stripper and coats as well as micro-tints (which I would have thought you would have mentioned) WHICH by the way I posted on here about a year or two ago BEFORE you started coming here :-) As well as posted on AR strippers and other coats..
Sounds like you got a raw deal or think you got a raw deal or whatever from the optical market, and might as well get used to the big boys pushing the market BTW, regardless of that, you wanting to make a point by trying to make someone sound like they are "stupid" and uninformed is not going to be of much help to you...I know I don't appreciate being talked to as some rookie who got sent off to find the box of optical centers back in the stock room
I just asked some questions...sheesh...which you went back to telling me about it is the same process don't need to send it over sea's...DUH.. I know the application is no different (you don't have that many choices in application if you want good adhesion and blend etc. etc..)
I was TALKING about the actual material and the matrix of the coats, and indexes of the coats.. which you achieve by chemicals and change the spectrum of the coating..

Thanks any ways..I think I'll go play in some other thread, I'm done with this one :-) unless Darryl wants to answer my questions, BUT if you have a wild hair Darryl and feel like giving me an "optical spanking" as well save your time and don't ..LOL...

Regardless...still hope you have a great holiday..

Jeff "oh I feel so dumb" Trail :-)

[Chris Ryser]

Jeff

For sure had no intentions of making anybody feel bad, insulted, nor do I want to start a war.

I do not get a raw deal from the optical market or at least think that I dont. Actually the optical market at whatever end I have worked, and I have been in all of them, from retail to wholesale, from lab to manufacturing, has been pretty good to me for many years.

When I post a notice on the Optiboard I am of the opinion that there are no personal attacks on anybody and specially not yourself, and if you felt that way, it was never meant to be.

Having been active in lens surface treatments for over 22 years I did accumulate some experience and knowhow and feel tickled for a response now and then.

Have a great holiday too........

[Joann Raytar]

Jeff Trail said:

Darryl might be able to answer this but I think that the Teflon coating is going to be an in-house thing, where you use SOLA's labs and have it coated..they make the lens as well...they just made the move here in the U.S. getting into the wholesale market and this is a way to get you to use a SOLA lab :-) That is probably the reason you have not heard anything from your existing lab..

So Teflon won't have the same type of availability as UTMC? The lab we use doesn't do in-house AR coating so we are used to either getting stock SV or ordering non-stock lenses through our lab who either orders from vendors, Essilor in the case of Crizal for example, or sends their lenses out to be coated if that may be the case.

Our lab treats us very well and we have developed a strong loyalty to them. We've shopped for prices and turn-around times in the past and got burned by quality that didn't match their's. Unfortunately, if we can't get Teflon AR from the surfacing lab we use then we won't be using Teflon AR. We will stick with Crizal.

[igirl]

Labs are required to order Teflon AR directly from Sola, we will have no control over the processing of the lenses. Jeff hit the nail on the head about why no one has really heard much from their lab's about the product, labs generally prefer to do their own surfacing. Additionally, there is no "easy"way to price the product as they are charging differently for each lens material and style and there is no real pattern for us to set one price. Lastly, after repeatedly asking for a sample, I still do not have one and am uncomfortable promoting any product I have not actually seen.

[Pete Hanlin]

Well, now that all the hubbub has seemed to stop, here's an answer to your original answer. The lenses ARE farmed out to a SOLA lab just as Crizal is farmed out. We are being charged $10 more than what Crizal costs. I have 2 jobs ordered with Teflon, but they have not come back yet. I'm eagerly awaiting their return.
It seems the only drawback is the 1 year, 1 time replacement warranty placed on Teflon A/R. If it really is as good as the ad says, back it up like Crizal. You may have better sales.
Concerning Crizal(r) lenses being "farmed out." Crizal is currently available through your authorized Varilux(r)/Crizal laboratory. Currently, there are four Essilor-owned Crizal processing centers that supply your authorized lab with their Crizal lenses. Additionally, Essilor has begun to contract with additional independent labs who wish to install the Crizal equipment necessary to produce Crizal. Two are already in place.

As Crizal has proved, the key to a superior AR stack is control of the substrate, the process, and the environment in which the process is carried out. Considering Crizal's success, it is not surprising that other manufacturers are following a similar blueprint.

BTW, Zirconium oxide is the material that gives Crizal its diamond-like toughness. Zirconium is the same material that is used in cubic zirconium (man-made diamonds), and it is nearly as tough as a diamond itself.