Its time to put up or shut up!

[hcjilson]

At the suggestion of ioconnell I am attempting to switch a thread from another forum.Since I lack moderator tools in these 2 forums, I am doing it this way!

In "Education and Professional Organizations" forum, Judy Canty posted:

OAA/SEOC Cutoff dates..

Ok, ladies and gentlemen, you've now waited until the last minute. There are 400 of us registered at the hotel and
that's just not enough.

The cutoff for the convention rate at the hotel is Sunday, June 16 and the cutoff for early registration for the
convention is Saturday, June 22.

Our national organization needs us right now, whether we approve of it's past behavior or not. If you want to be a
part of the new OAA, please register and join us. Sitting back and waiting for someone to come to our rescue just
won't work any more.

I'd like to believe that as OptiBoarders, we have the best interestes of our profession at heart and are committed
to raising our professional standards to the highest levels. What better place to begin to make our voices heard
than at what has been the traditional source of leadership in Opticianry, the OAA convention and Delegate
Assembly.

[hcjilson]

Many of us, myself included, have taken potshots at OAA over the years.Our critisism albeit well founded was anything BUT constructive.The organization has suffered as a result.Its time to put our talents to work to bring OAA to a place we want it to be.

This will not happen if we, collectively, don't do it.If you call yourself an optician......pay your dues!( Its only $65 and you can do it online). If you want a voice in OAA, plan to attend the annual meeting in July.

While the stalwarts have hung in and kept it alive, we've been sitting back riding on their coat tails.
Woe to the Optiborder who complains about OAA and remains outside its membership.Get with the program and meet me in Atlanta.We can make some history there!

hj

[MVEYES]

I paid my dues in April. Normally the convention is in June but ended up smack dab in the middle of a family vacation. Chip Lothes (President of Optician Association of Ohio) will be there to represent our board along with Tom Hicks, Doug Burkhart , John Lynch and Mike Hall. We had a chat about the goals we are looking for with the new leadership and they are going in with some positive ideas. By the way criticism of an organization should be a constructive way to bring ideas for betterment. If those ideas are ignored then the critics have their right to voice their discontent. This media (internet) has created a great arena for those who are unable to physically attend meetings. I have attended OAA conventions in the past and will in the future. I will not stop being critical of the organization until I stop caring about it.





Jerry

[Judy Canty]

All right now, you've missed the hotel deadline. You still have time to pre-register before the convention deadline this weekend. How could you all miss out attending classes given by our own Diane Drake, Karlen Lamperelli, Warren McDonald and Ed DeGennaro!

Register on-line at www.oaa.org

[hcjilson]

I think the Hotel still has rooms and I once read in a book, that you can negotiate ANYTHING!
HJ

[Diane]

hcjilson said:
I think the Hotel still has rooms and I once read in a book, that you can negotiate ANYTHING!
HJ

Harry,

I believe that you are correct. The block is completely gone for Thursday night, but I understand that the hotel has some rooms at a different rate. They MAY still allow block rate for Friday and Saturday. People will just have to call and see what they can do.

Diane

[Darris Chambless]

Hello to all,

This is just a little information that may come in handy for those that wish to attend such conventions. On the surface it may appear that I'm being negative but it is quite the contrary. If the OAA wants more attendees sometimes they have to look at a broader picture for those that may not be able to afford to attend do to finacial deficit.

When Chad and I attended the OAA convention in New Orleans we found out (through prebooking) what happens in some cases with block rates. Block rates do more for the organization than for the attendees. If the blocked alotment is met the organization can get special discounts or other perks for the "dignitaries" of the organization. They can also get special rates on airfair in some cases, convention rooms at reduced rates or free or whatever from the hotels providing space. This can help the organization planners attend these functions more readily and that's a good thing to keep these things going. However, in New Orleans we found out that when organizations set up a block of rooms the price of the room is artificially inflated and then discounted (or at least it is said they are discounted)

In short we could get a better rate if we said we weren't associated with the convention than if we did because room rates could be negotiated outside the convention but were preset for the convention goers. What we ended up doing was calling the hotel across the street and saved $80.00 a night which made it possible for us to attend the convention.

If you have the money to stay in the assigned hotel by all means do so since it helps with future conventions, but if you have to watch your dollars do some research and you'd be surprised at what you can get for your dollar. The reason I throw this in here is because if this information is available the attendance just might increase a little. Not everyone can afford $140.00 a night to go to a convention plus the cost of the convention as well.

Those that teach classes or are directly involved with the organizations get special breaks and some things are paid for through the organization to get them to go. This in and of itself makes it easy for the promoters to shout from the hill tops "Everybody needs to attend!" because it does not cost them as much as it does the "common man."

So to get the "common man" to go you gotta give out some of this information to make it feasible for more to attend. I'm not trying to take anything away from the OAA but if they want better attendance they might want to consider giving people some of this inside information so that the attendees have a few other options to consider. Maybe this will help a little.

Take care,

Darris C.

[Judy Canty]

I'll admit that this is pretty much out of my area of expertise, however I have been marginally involved with convention planning in the past, primarily at the state level. This is what I know. When an organization books a convention it also has to "guarantee" a given number of room reservations. The hotel "blocks" these rooms at a given rate for a given amount of time for convention attendees. IF the room block is filled, the hotel generally discounts, in whole or part, the cost of meeting room space. While this may not be apparent to the attendees up front, imagine what the registration costs would be if the organization had to also foot the bill for extra meeting space. The OAA convention in Dallas, for instance, would have cost OAA an additional $30,000 because the room block was not met. We agreed to have the Leadership Conference there the next year in exchange for the money shortfall. I'm not exactly a dignitary but I am on the OAA Board of Directors and have been for 3 years. They don't pick up any of my expenses, nor do they for any of us. We attend, at our own expense, from a sense of committment to a profession that has been very good to us. I agree that the room rates in the past have been high because we were meeting in some pretty pricey places. This will change. The room rate for Atlanta is quite reasonable, $119 per night, and if you like to share it's even more reasonable. We are additionally honored that the Southeastern Opticians Conference invited OAA to join them at their annual convention in Atlanta. Combining exhibit hall and meeting room spaces has helped both organizations keep expenses to a minimum. Additionally, many of the speakers do so at no charge or have their expenses covered by an industry sponsor. That's about all I know about conventions and convention planning.

[hcjilson]

Darris, I think you made a good point about the financial constraints placed on the individual members to attend one annual meeting.I also think OAA has missed the boat somewhat in not providing regional organizations.The original idea was to have the state societies function in that capacity, and I think that perhaps that has fallen by the wayside, and it may indeed be time to resurect that philosophy.

In order to do that, however, you will need Members and their commitment to work to better the organization.The fact that one cannot attend the annual meeting is no reason not to send in the dues for that year.We don't belong to this organization to attend its meetings, we belong to protect the future of our profession.

Darris, If you can get to Atlanta, you can crash with Ian and I ( if you can stand the snoring!!)
Best from harry

[Darris Chambless]

Hello Harry,

And thanks for the invite. It would thrill me to death to meet you and Ian in person, but unfortunately I have matters to tend to here that will conflict with the Atlanta meeting so I'm afraid I won't be attending this time.

I hope that no one takes offense to this (but this is Me we're talking about so...:) I was a dues paying member of the OAA but after following it for a while I became very concerned. Did I sit back and stay silent about my concerns? You know me, how could I keep my mouth shut? ;) I e-mailed, I called and on rare occasions actually got to speak with the person I was attempting to contact. I expressed my concerns which fell on deaf ears. I got a really bad taste in my mouth for the OAA and then all hell broke loose and people were being indicted, fired, brought up on other charges and the whole house was basically emptied and fresh new faces arrived.

I didn't renew my membership with OAA after that, but have still kind of kept abreast of what's being done and so forth. I don't see any changes not to mention (and no offense) but I know of some of the OAA controlling board mebers and I'm not impressed at all. It is almost as if the same old attitudes exist within and are not likely to change. So what I see is the same old same old but with new names, faces and without all the illegal activities.

Perhaps it's just that I had the experience that I did to begin with and it wasn't a good one. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I just don't think I am on this one. I don't want the demise of the OAA in anyway, shape or form but I fear it will meet it's own end by its own hand.

Sorry to be such a pesimist as it is not out of anger but out of observation.

Take care to all and I hope you all have a good time and a safe trip to Atlanta.

Darris C.

[Judy Canty]

I do believe that almost 50% of the Board members will change with the elections held at the Delegate Assembly. I do know that the attitudes have changed significantly. With that being said, remember that the available pool of Opticians willing to spend the money and the time to help OAA function shrinks along with the membership roster. So when membership gets down to just a handful of Opticians, just a handful will be running it.

I am reminded of a friend who commented that she just couldn't justify bringing children into such a dangerous world, so she elected to remain childless. I remarked that it was fortunate that HER mother didn't feel that way.

What we do as OAA members has less to do with today's issues than it does with our impact on future issues. We've got to start somewhere and it may as well be in Atlanta.

Judy "less than impressive" Canty

[hcjilson]

Darris wrote:

Perhaps it's just that I had the experience that I did to begin with and it wasn't a good one. Perhaps I'm wrong,
but I just don't think I am on this one. I don't want the demise of the OAA in anyway, shape or form but I fear it
will meet it's own end by its own hand.

My answer is, only if WE let it! This is the time to rejoin, and rebuild.If I didn't believe that I never would have sent my dues in. I am told on good authority, there will be many changes for the positive, one of them being a membership drive.I don't think anyone wants a return to the "old days", but the only way to insure that doesn't happen is to pitch in with your ideas,your actions, and your dues.(not necessarily in that order).OAA will be looking for all three in equal measure.

With the "professor" aboard no one could derail the train!

[Darris Chambless]

I gave a forboding to Harry with regard to offending, but not for offending an individual but rather the organization as a whole.

My dearest Judy,

"Judy "less than impressive" Canty"

Eh hum!

"I don't see any changes not to mention (and no offense) but I know of some of the OAA controlling board mebers and I'm not impressed at all.

If you will draw your attention to the words "know OF" and the word "some." I don't know OF you, I know you (as well as lots of stuff about you.) So I never singled you out in anyway. Again my concern was for those being offend for the organization and not individuals.

As to the attitudes changing drastically, it may have more to do with whether one is an objective or subjective view. I calls em like I sees em and I'd be willing to bet that (although probably the only one to come out and verbalize it) I'm not alone in these views. This isn't an attack on the OAA nor is it an attack on those running it. What it is is an observation based on a few years of watching and listening and reading.

When I let my membership lapse with OAA it is as if they ceased to be. Meaning other than what I see on the board, unless I go looking for the information the OAA has little or nothing to do with me or any other optician in this town as well as many others in the state of Texas. I became a member through what I read on this board years ago. Until then I didn't even know there was a National Organization for opticians, but I knew about the ABO and NAO. Now that I'm no longer a member I'm right back where I was before becoming a member unless I go looking for the information (and I do)

If you felt my comment was a slight against you, you're wrong. If you are trying to defend the OAA it isn't necessary. People can draw their own conclusions as to how things are going with the OAA and I was making observations of my own. Heck, when I have the time and or money I'll attend the OAA conventions and contribute my dollars in continuing education and festivities, see old friends and make new ones. I think that gives me the best bang for the buck (in my opinion)

Anyway, I stand by what I said in that "I know OF" "SOME" of the OAA controlling board members and I'm not impressed at all (I'd even be willing to bet that there are one or two that even you, Judy, could live without ;). One question I would ask of anyone willing to answer this question: What successes has the OAA had recently or in the past to advance opticianry? I'm not asking what the organization or sitting members "intend" to do or what the agenda is, I would like to know what they have done to advance opticianry. Maybe I've missed something.

Take care,

Darris C.

[Judy Canty]

I'm not personally offended, I'm offended as an OAA board member who, with other board members and concerned non-board members, has kept the faith knowing that restructuring was not only inevitable but long overdue. It will begin with the Delegate Assembly in Atlanta and I will be a part of it, even though it means closing my store for 3 days.

Darris, you're not an OAA member so, in my mind at least, your "potshots" at the organization have no validity. They have no effect either positively or negatively on it's future. They do, however, diminish you, and for that reason I am sad.

I was concerned that Harry's title for this thread was a little strong...perhaps not.

[Darris Chambless]

Hi Judy,

Weep not for me or my soul, for I am now and always will be. :)

"Darris, you're not an OAA member so, in my mind at least, your "potshots" at the organization have no validity.
They have no effect either positively or negatively on it's future."

Funny thing. When I was a member they had the same effect. It is amazing what happened to the organization shortly after I started asking a lot of my questions and brought up my concerns. Had they listened, a positive effect may have insued but they did not and a negative effect is what transpired. But the negative did not transpire by my hand; it was inevitable.

"They do, however, diminish you, and for that reason I am sad."

My "potshots" as you call them are nothing of the sort, Judy. They are observations, some from a distance while others are much closer. I've never changed my position on national organizations in that turning the success of a profession over to a group will never advance it. Who advances the proffesion of Opticianry? We all do, but on a more personal and individual basis than some wish to believe. Why will national organizations fail in their endeavors? Because some say Toe-May-Toe and some say Toe-mah-toe. I'll represent myself and have been quite successful in doing so for many years.

As to my statements "diminishing" me; while I appreciate your concern I've never been very popular amongst some of my peers, especially when I'm right. But I'm not here to win a popularity contest so I guess that is the cross I will have to bare. I'm sorry if I've upset you or anyone else but what's done is done and what's said is said.

Now with all that behind us lets get back to a question I posed earlier:

What successes has the OAA had recently or in the past to advance opticianry? I'm not asking what the organization or sitting members "intend" to do or what the agenda is, I would like to know what they have done to advance opticianry. Maybe I've missed something.

Thanks in advance to all that answer the question.

Darris C.

[Joann Raytar]

Darris Chambless said:

I've never changed my position on national organizations in that turning the success of a profession over to a group will never advance it. Who advances the proffesion of Opticianry? We all do, but on a more personal and individual basis than some wish to believe. Why will national organizations fail in their endeavors? Because some say Toe-May-Toe and some say Toe-mah-toe. I'll represent myself and have been quite successful in doing so for many years.

Darris,
Why don't you believe any national organization will work? I understand that we each can do something to make a difference in strengthening Opticianry but doesn't the "some say Toe-May-Toe and some say Toe-mah-toe" problem afflict us all even as individuals? Wouldn't one strong national organization have better chances of achieving goals when it comes to dealing with federal and local governments?

hcjilson said:
...I think you made a good point about the financial constraints placed on the individual members to attend one annual meeting.I also think OAA has missed the boat somewhat in not providing regional organizations.The original idea was to have the state societies function in that capacity, and I think that perhaps that has fallen by the wayside, and it may indeed be time to resurect that philosophy...

Judy,

Are there any plans for the OAA to hold a type of e-"town meeting" via either live chat or video conference on the OAA website? This would be a great way for the OAA to reach Opticians who cannot attend the conferences but still want to be involved and hear what the OAA has to say directly from the organization itself.

[Judy Canty]

Jo,
That is something we will be considering for the future. Our immediate task is to build our membership and thereby our financial base so that these kinds of things can happen. The OAA of the past has been kept viable primarily through Firm Member dues. That base is shrinking rapidly and OAA recognizes that it must appeal to the Individual Member for support. My term on the Board of Directors ends with elections at the Delegate Assembly but I've been asked to serve on the Membership Committee which I will do gladly. I'm sure we will spend a great deal of time developing an OAA "package" that will appeal to the individual Optician.

I indend to ask a lot of questions on this forum about what Opticians want from their national organization. I cannot guarantee that everyone gets everything they want, but I can guarantee that we will be responsive to the needs of our members. I won't apologize or defend the old OAA. I will do what I can to ensure that the new OAA will be stronger and better than ever.

[Darris Chambless]

Jo said:
Darris,
Why don't you believe any national organization will work? I understand that we each can do something to make a difference in strengthening Opticianry but doesn't the "some say Toe-May-Toe and some say Toe-mah-toe" problem afflict us all even as individuals? Wouldn't one strong national organization have better chances of achieving goals when it comes to dealing with federal and local governments?

Jo,

That is an excellent set of questions so I'll answer them :)

"Why don't you believe any national organization will work?"

I'm speaking for myself here sos not to confuse anyone else. When you turn progress over to a select group there will be no more unity or advancement than if it's done on an individual basis (as you pointed out) There will be opposing views (which is a good thing albeit a wall for progress) some will compromise while others will not and a roadblock will ensue. So it's back to the drawing board where more time and money will be necessary. Not to mention each time votes for board members comes around you never know who you're gonna get running the show and that can be unnerving sometimes.

"I understand that we each can do something to make a difference in strengthening Opticianry but doesn't the "some say Toe-May-Toe and some say Toe-mah-toe" problem afflict us all even as individuals?"

Jo, we as individuals do more for strengthening opticianry than any organization ever will. A national organization looks good on paper. Not much more I can add to that sentence ;) Are national organization unnecessary? It is strictly up to the individuals view on it. If you want one and it makes you feel better then by all means do whatever you can to help it to advance BUT MAKE SURE YOU HOLD THE ORGANIZATION ACCOUNTABLE FOR ITS ACTIONS AND GET FINACIAL DISCLOSURERS SO YOU CAN SEE WHERE YOUR DUES MONEY IS GOING! :) Make sure that they have an agenda as well as a definitive plan to begin executing that agenda otherwise they will spend an inardenant amount of time in "meetings." Meetings are those things that keep us from doing actual work and thus slow down progress :) As to tomoatoe thing, the answer is, Yup.

"Wouldn't one strong national organization have better chances of achieving goals when it comes to dealing with federal and local governments?"

That is entirely too dependant on a very narrow set of parameters. Basically, if you have the right people and the right chemstry as well as the right mix of intellect, you bet it can. Therein lies the problem. If you don't have all these things a national organization will spend more time in meetings than they will moving forward with an agenda (unless of course spending a lot of times in meetings IS the agenda :), it will have to in order to try to meet common ground with all the board members as well as state organizations. Again this is the process and protocol, but progress it isn't. You can have a board of brilliant people, but if their views are diametrically opposed (and it happens more often than not) these brilliant people will do no more than anyone past group.

So how to solve the problem? You may be asking yourself. You do it at home. You do the best that you can. Become what you so deprerately want the organizations to get for you. You create your own niche in life and thus can garner your own better treatment, better pay, set the standard for all other opticians in your area which in turn will make the other doctors in your area take notice. We all need education but as to licensure? The jury is still out on that one for me, but if you want nation wide licensure then nation wide education will have to come first. Education then legislation.

That's my take on things, but in a nutshell I tend to equate Organizations more with Unions and I'm not fond of Unions.

Take care and thanks for asking,

Darris C.

[Judy Canty]

[QUOTE]Darris Chambless said:



"Wouldn't one strong national organization have better chances of achieving goals when it comes to dealing with federal and local governments?"

That is entirely too dependant on a very narrow set of parameters. Basically, if you have the right people and the right chemstry as well as the right mix of intellect, you bet it can. Therein lies the problem. If you don't have all these things a national organization will spend more time in meetings than they will moving forward with an agenda (unless of course spending a lot of times in meetings IS the agenda :), it will have to in order to try to meet common ground with all the board members as well as state organizations. Again this is the process and protocol, but progress it isn't. You can have a board of brilliant people, but if their views are diametrically opposed (and it happens more often than not) these brilliant people will do no more than anyone past group."

Interesting logic, but how does that explain organized Optometry's successful 20+ year pursuit of TPA legislation? The chances of having a completely homogeneous Board of Directors for any organization over that many years is quite small. What it took were Optometrists who were willing and able to look at the bigger picture, set aside differences and work toward a common goal. Something that Opticians have yet to understand.

[Darris Chambless]

[b][i]Judy Canty said:
Interesting logic, but how does that explain organized Optometry's successful 20+ year pursuit of TPA legislation? The chances of having a completely homogeneous Board of Directors for any organization over that many years is quite small. What it took were Optometrists who were willing and able to look at the bigger picture, set aside differences and work toward a common goal. Something that Opticians have yet to understand.

Hi Judy,

The AOA is no more than a lobbiest group and OD's had the funds available to hire lobbiests, lawyers and were able to get people sympathetic to their cause (e.g. bought them off) to vote for what OD's wanted. Opticians (or at least the National organizations) are trying to get things passed on merrit and it won't work. You have to own someone that will do your bidding in the legislature and that is how things get done. It can't be just anyone either, it has to be someone with clout.

The Optometry organization was and is narrow of purpose and in my opinion is more of a front than anything else to aid in funneling money to congressmen and congresswomen. This is what opticianry has infront of them as a roadblock. Optometry has it pretty well sewn up because of the squandering by the former OAA boards. I fear that the OAA has lost so much ground that regaining it may be an impossible task unless the right group of people are running the show. Perhaps that is on the horizon and if so you can count me in, but I'm gonna have to see a little something to make me change my mind first.

Please don't throw in the "Without the dues the OAA won't have the money to go forward on their agenda so it's a catch 22." My situation is a little different. When I was sending in my dues it was being squandered and when I asked what was going on I was told it was none of my business. When I started rattling cages to get a response I was primarily met with silence, but those that did respond basically told me I was less of an optician for doing it and how dare I make requests of the nature that I did and (in essence) if I were really behind opticianry I'd just keep supporting the OAA blindly. So please try to understand my position and attitude toward it is not without warrant.

I trust that there are good people on the board now but as I've said there are a few that I know of and am not impressed by. I also realize that one bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch but when you're dealing with collective ideologies one bad apple can definitely spoil the whole bunch.

These are my views on the subject and no one elses so to all who read, draw your own conclusions based on what you know, what you've experienced and what your needs are in the profession.

And finally Judy,

"Something that Opticians have yet to understand." If you're directing that at me then direct it at Me and leave others out of it. If you're directing it at a faction of opticians that aren't supporting the organization you might be surprised at what they understand.

Darris C.

[Judy Canty]

Darris Chambless said:

"The AOA is no more than a lobbiest group and OD's had the funds available to hire lobbiests, lawyers and were able to get people sympathetic to their cause (e.g. bought them off) to vote for what OD's wanted."

That pretty much describes what many national trade associations are and OAA is no exception. We're an organization whose main concentration is legislative activity.

"Please don't throw in the "Without the dues the OAA won't have the money to go forward on their agenda so it's a catch 22." My situation is a little different. When I was sending in my dues it was being squandered and when I asked what was going on I was told it was none of my business. When I started rattling cages to get a response I was primarily met with silence, but those that did respond basically told me I was less of an optician for doing it and how dare I make requests of the nature that I did and (in essence) if I were really behind opticianry I'd just keep supporting the OAA blindly. So please try to understand my position and attitude toward it is not without warrant."

My situation as well, I just choose to react differently because my view is different than yours. I was screamed at by important (at least in their own minds) people and ignored by others. But I knew that they would be gone in time and the organization still had to function, so I continued to send in my firm and Guild dues.


"And finally Judy,

"Something that Opticians have yet to understand." If you're directing that at me then direct it at Me and leave others out of it. If you're directing it at a faction of opticians that aren't supporting the organization you might be surprised at what they understand.

Darris C.

I'm directing that statement to Opticians, not just you. If Opticians really understood what's at stake, they would and could not allow college-based Opticianry programs to close for lack of enrollment. They would undestand that post-secondary, college-based Opticianry education is the foundation for everything we seem to say we want, a national Opticians exam including a practical exam, increasing our scope of practice and acceptance as professionals by other healthcare providers. It is my belief that as Opticians we refuse to look farther than the boundaries of our own individual markets. We refuse to understand that, while we can impact our immediate areas as individuals, we cannot and will not have any measurable impact on a national level without the strength of a nationally focused organization. I believe that if OAA ceases to function, NOTHING will rise to take it's place and Opticians will lose what little self-determination we have left and I will do what ever I can to prevent that from happening.

[bren_03825]

If you want an idea that may help (or it may not?), try to BREIFLY explain the situation to patients, and have them ask the lawmakers for change. 1 voice can be heard, but a multitude is overwhelming. Plus, when it's the voters complaining, the lawmakers tend to make more of an issue for it!

[bren_03825]

And if everyone tries it, who knows, maybe we can make a difference?! I've been telling my patients for years about the situation in NH, and we are getting closer for required licensure, each year. Last year we missed by 2 votes. It cant hurt to try to have more than opticians pushing for it, the patients add a lot of clout!

[BobV]

No smiley faces here. The OAA has in the past been a "good ole boy/girl " organization. The same holds true today. Same people, all the time.

Judy, you may say that we CAN make the difference if we all become members, but in actuality, only a select few will be heard. That is why I dropped the OAA. So where does the group thing come in? It seems that with this group, if there is a complaint on the way something is handled, then you are basically berated because you have "gone against the cause." So sorry, I don't want to be a part of an organization that CAN'T take criticism.

Also, like Darris, I am waiting to see what the OAA has accomplished recently. I am not taking potshots at you or OAA. I just need examples to prove the OAA's worthiness of my dues.

Thanks for reading MY opinions.

Bob V.

[Judy Canty]

I was going to reply, but the actuality is that it won't make any difference...so I won't...