Be fired or resign?

[OptiBiz]

Is it better to quit your job or let the employee fire you
when you are a good employee?
What can you do legally to protect yourself?
Something unfair, unjust is happening to someone and I am
trying to help. If you quit will you look like the irresponsible one?
Is that in favor of the employer?
Optibiz:o

[chip anderson]

Try to find a new job before being fired, then move on don't whine. Life isn't fair. We are only allowed to play the game, no where is it written that we are supposed to win.


Chip

[OptiBiz]

What about exposing the person to the right people? Don't you think someone should know this?

Optibiz

[Tim Hunter]

The answer to your original question is it is better to resign. You have more chance of being re-employed especially if you can justify why you resigned to your new employer. You also take control of your life. Being fired is bad for your self esteem, leaves you out of control and looks bad on your record.

The answer to the real question you were asking is it may not be possible to chnage the situation in the company your "friend" is working in. Even if it is possible to get a change of management you may well be left with the label of troublemaker. Wouldn't it be better to get out and find a better place to work?

[OptiBiz]

Thanks so much Tim.
Your words of wisdom are appreciated. The information you gave to me will be directed to the right person.
Optibiz

[Joann Raytar]

OptiBiz,

I've read your other thread on this subject and I have one question. Are the quotas that the employees must meet in order to keep their jobs a company standard or are they part of a contest during the promotion?

[Pete Hanlin]

I am obviously not familiar with the situation, but it is generally better to be fired than to resign (from an unemployment compensation standpoint). If an employee is fired and subsequently unable to find a new job, the burden of proof is on the employer to demonstrate the legitimate reason for the employee's dismissal. Resigning leaves the employer "off the hook" as far as unemployment comp goes (unless the person resigns and can build a case of discrimination or other illegal employment practices that made quitting a neccessity).

Of course, as has been mentioned earlier, it is best to find new employment while you still have your job and then simply move on.

Finally, find out if you live in an "at-will" employment state (like Florida). As an employer, I can fire anyone for any reason (outside of discrimination or retribution for whistle-blowing to a regulatory agency). That doesn't mean I won't have to pay unemployment (unless I can document that notices were given to the employee concerning job performance-related issues, and those issues remained unresolved).

Good luck!

[OptiBiz]

Jo said:
OptiBiz,

I've read your other thread on this subject and I have one question. Are the quotas that the employees must meet in order to keep their jobs a company standard or are they part of a contest during the promotion?

They are part of a contest during a promotion.
Optibiz

[OptiBiz]

Well, I must say through all of this discussion one thing seems so important and that is to make the work environment a safe, pleasant, productive place to spend your time.

It is much easier to get great performance from people by being supportive, helping people with their weaknesses and nurturing their good points. What is so hard about this? They will want to come to work every day and feel good about themselves, and might be more productive.

No one wants to be in a negative environment.

Optibiz

[Alan W]

You should be commended for your concern.
If you were a staff employee in a store and wanted to protect someone on your level, a good store or department manager can move appropriately. But, that is not as likely as one might expect. The manager has a manager who may or may not support your intentions to protect someone. You stand as a target if it goes the wrong way. The exit door could be closer than you think and if that happens, few people close to you in management will care to listen dispite exit interviews, etc. However, and depending on who you work for, the Human Resources Department is there to protect the company against losses as well as execute the corporate policy on employee relations. They, if presented with a situation that places the company at risk, can easily go back down the chain of command and insist on investigation. And, if you are still around, somebody will identify you as a whistle blower, true or not. So, what I would do is do it from the outside. That means leave. However, while you are handing the resignation in writing, hand it to HR before you give a copy to your manager. You no longer operate by their rules when you resign, so you miight just as well go out in a hail of fire if that will wake some people up. It would be nice if you could talk to management about the problem, but I doubt that is going to work.

[Joann Raytar]

Ahh, it is a contest. That puts an interesting spin on things.

The quotas that folks must meet in order to keep their jobs are not normal standards of performance. This is now more of a threat by a manager, probably so that they can either win the contest and gain a prize or just so the manager can score points with the brass. It is not nice or ethical to play head games with your employees. I think this officially places the associates under psyhcological hardship. Not because the company is running a contest, but because the manager is choosing to extort a contest win from them using their future employment as an intimidation factor. :finger:

I don't think your friend would have a problem with unemployment boards on this one. In fact, this is probably a good way to get yourself sued if you are a manager. Your friend should call their state labor board and find out where that state stands on behaviour like this.

Alan,
You would be surprised at how some HR departments feel about things like this. Usually, they don't like it and start out having no idea that this type of behaviour by their managers is going on. Like you said, they are there to keep the company out of litigation. Part of maintaining that goal is investigating unethical behaviour that may just be against company policy or the law. If your friend feels that the doors are closed on them at in store and district management levels, HR may be the place to go. If for no other reason but to have a red flag go up on the managers giving your friend a hard time. Try HR, you might be surprised and as Pete said if they give a "whistle blower" a hard time they can find themselves in really hot water. In most states, you cannot retaliate against an employee making an official complaint.

Obviously, we are not lawyers here on OptiBoard but perhaps a lawyer is who your friend needs to talk to.

[OptiBiz]

JO
Exactly, this is what I think too.
Optibiz

[Cindy Hamlin]

[b][i]Alan W said: You no longer operate by their rules when you resign, so you miight just as well go out in a hail of fire if that will wake some people up.

Alan,
I beg to differ with you. The optical community is far too small a community to burn bridges! A professional, well written letter of resignation is always the way to go. Someday that situation may be different and you may need to return!

[hcjilson]

If we are professionals, and want to be recognised as professionals, then we should BE professionals.

Professionals don't quit, they resign, and with enough notice for their employer to make other arrangments. It is never better to be fired than to resign. Employees who act professionally will be treated as a professionals.

Concerning unemployment benifits: You are still entitled to unemployment beneifits if you resign over an employment practice that either is unfair or that you perceive is unfair.This will be decided at a hearing (ususally unattended by the employer), and heavily weighted in favor of the claimant.

If you burn a bridge in this field and want to stay in this field, I quarentee you that it will come back to haunt you at some point.It makes no sense whatever to do that.

hj

[Pete Hanlin]

With utmost respect for Harry,
First, I completely agree about the "never burn bridges" rule. You gain nothing by leaving in a huff, and someday dow the road (as Harry mentioned), it WILL come back to bite you.

As I said, I'm not there to see exactly what is going on. However, I can assure you it will be easier to collect unemployment after dismissal that it is after resigning (at least here in Florida). If you wish to make a moral stand, so be it- that's commendable. Just understand that every moral stand involves a price (payment of that price is called character).

With the expanded description of the scenario that you have provided, I must admit that it appears as if the employer is being unethical. Without trying to be a "heavy" here, I just have to point out that employers have rights too. Yes, a business owner has an obligation to provide a suitable workplace. However, at the end of the day, the owner is the one "on the hook" for the success or failure of the business.

All self-righteousness aside, there are a LOT of employees who show up, collect their check, and that's the extent of it. Given a slightly better offer (or maybe they get a bit irked one day) they are just as happy to work someplace else. There is very little company loyalty left among employees out there (perhaps because companies don't take as good a care of their employees these days, but that's not the issue here).

Harry is especially correct in one regard- unemployment hearings are heavily skewed in the employee's favor. Fortunately, I haven't had to take part in many unemployment procedures (maybe because I try to manage fairly), but I've seen absolutely horrible employees rake over good employers time and time again at other places.

I wish your friend the best of luck in his/her dilemma. My question is, if the situation is as bad as described, why would the person want to stay where they are?

PS- I consider myself a professional. If it were me, I'd quietly find another position and give notice. No gripes, no harsh words... just a neatly composed letter of resignation.

[Alan W]

Thank you for reminding me that retaliation does exist in management. Some managers even hurt people because they don't manage or lead...they intimidate.
Some times even managers misbehave!
You know...the ol back stabbing and political agendas and the other frailties of modern man (gender not implied).
Some create an environment of tyrany that makes it too hot to stay in the kitchen.
I don't advocate burning bridges. Never. So, let's lay that to rest.
But, I am surprised that you equate burning bridges with an honest complaint . . . even in the after employment life!
I would be concerned that someone reading this might think that it is wrong to quit and it is wrong to make exiting statements in writing that might reveal injustice. . . or else.
Some day we'll have to "split a coke" and share some real living war stories that have ruined a lot of careers.
Seems to me this thread was about someone faced with a dilemma. Might you suggest some alternatives to the author?

[10 Pence Short]

You can give your life to crusading against those you feel have wronged you- but trust me, it won't make you feel any better, won't give you a paycheque and won't gain any respect.

What's said above is true- burning bridges just leaves you with one less path to tread when you might just need it.

If I were your 'friend' I'd resign (after finding employment elswhere), leave on good terms with those you have to and strive to look back with a smug satisfaction one day- 'The success I have today started with the day I took control'.

Good luck!!

[stephanie]

Oh goodness been there done that. Let me speak from experience. I had been at my former job 3 years, I showed up on time every single day, I never ever called out not one day. Finally one fine day we hired a couple of newbies. I trained them the best I knew how and guess what...they it all blew up in my face. They started the "hammer til she quits" operation. It was the most miserable thing that has ever happened to me. This is what I did...I had the doc I used to work with use her influence with the surrounding doctors to get me another job (she was on my side the entire way since she knew I was not at fault.) I gave my two wks notice, informed all of upper management exactly why I was quitting and exactly what was happening to me, and went to my new job. I really loved my job and probably would have never quit but by the same respect when others make life unbearable for you, you have to make a logical decision to continue with life as it is and possibly suffer a nervous breakdown and perhaps even say something you shouldn't to the people causing the wrong doing, or move on. You will find people can be very very wicked especially if you are a good, honest employee. They will try all they can to make you feel incompetant, unappreciated, and just plain awful about yourself. People are people and there is nothing you can do about this. You can try to defend your friend and I find that VERY admirable of you and respect you greatly for it btw....(there were people who worked with me that should have spoken up and didn't, but I guess they were too afraid it would then happen to them. ) Unfortunately, you may be doing it in vain...however the best thing for your friend to do is update the old resume and move on!!!! It hurts very badly for me personally because I desperately try to be the best employee I can be, but some people don't want you to do that since it makes them look bad because for whatever reason they decide they don't like you and don't want you to work with them any longer. Best wishes to your friend as I know exactly how it feels to be on that side of things. Better to move on and quit on your own terms than to give them the satisfaction of firing!! That was my own policy!!!

Steph

[10 Pence Short]

Wow,

I'm out of breath just reading that, Stephanie!!

Hope you work better than you structure sentences!

Only joking, sounds like you were in a similar position to our 'friend'. You're a good example and you did exactly as I would have done.

[OptiBiz]

Alan W said:
Thank you for reminding me that retaliation does exist in management. Some managers even hurt people because they don't manage or lead...they intimidate.
Some times even managers misbehave!
You know...the ol back stabbing and political agendas and the other frailties of modern man (gender not implied).
Some create an environment of tyrany that makes it too hot to stay in the kitchen.

Funny, you don't know this person but this description is right on target. You hit the bulls eye.

Optibiz

[Alan W]

I've got this problem called my sense of humor. I guess I've been around too long watching a lot of what we're talking about here. And, the fact that I come from Southern California doesn't help at all . . . I'm just wacked out on brusell sprouts or something. And, my statement about going out in a hail of fire wasn't intended to imply a "crusade".
As long back as I can remember, when I was responible for management training at Lenscrafters (circa 1984), it was the mandate of management in those primate days to be sure that management behaved. I over simplify that statement with apologies. And, the mandate never reached all the rookies. Certain companies today thrive because of those same philosophies. Others flounder and go up and down and because of the economy and cost cutting and what not, spend a lot less time in management training and the behaviors that make it happen right.
An employee (aka "associate") is very much at the will of management. And references to the "hereafter" because of speaking up are examples that somebody didn't get the training or doesn't work for a company that really....really...really... wants its people dealt with justly even if it is a manager who "has his/her own style". Even though I influenced the training of nearly 475 managers at Lenscrafters, recently I was the recipient of experiences similar to yours. And, interestingly, almost a year later, I was contacted by HR for a one-hour phone call to be followed up by some more talks, because one manager was reported by many more employees for exactly what we have experienced. And, I am sure that some day, the individual who is being investigated will cross my path and will attempt revenge. However, the industry will also know that this individual is a bad player! And, you know just recently, in a venture I am involved, that same person being investigated sent an associate a resume. Take three guesses where that resume is as we speak. Think about why the resume is even out there. This is, indeed, a small industry. Those of us who are todays underlings sometimes rise to be other's supervisor at some future point in time. In a meeting, in a per chance conversation, certain names and issues come up, at certain other "levels" of the industry . . . that cause water to seek its own level. Nobody is invincible and everybody is a potential victim. I still stand for the simple philosophy that if all the doors are really open your experience won't happen. But, if they are open and no is there to listen, then some door higher up has an individual paid to keep the company from getting its "youknowwhat" sued or an EEOC "right to sue" letter issued.

[stephanie]

I hope you finally caught your breath 10 pence!! LOL!! Yes I know I tend to ramble when I hear something like this. It just burns me up when I hear of things happening like this to others. Ironically, one of the people who hurt me is now experiencing the same thing. Huh funny how sometimes the tables turn. I also agree with you Alan we could indeed end up being a supervisor one day. I would hope and pray that I would be a bigger person as to not let the way I was treated by them influence the way that I manage them. I feel that I would be fair to them because that is the type of person I am. Like I said before some people are just nasty and wicked. There isn't much you can do about that. Pray for them.

Steph

[OptiBiz]

stephanie said:
. Like I said before some people are just nasty and wicked. There isn't much you can do about that. Pray for them.
Steph

And run the other way, too much to fight about and they are someone elses problems dumped on another person.
Is it worth it to hang around and victimize yourself when you know the score? I realize most people need their jobs. That is what makes it so "crummy"...when you are into the job and one day you wake up and realize that you have to get out of the situation; but different places, different faces, same people.
Optibiz

[chip anderson]

While the overall response to this question seems to agree with me, I seem to see the little girl in every class below the eighth grade who was always the one to put her hand up to her mouth, look shocked and say: "Oh, I'm tellin."

Never understood what the little (fill in your own adjective) got out of this. But it always seemed to be the opportunity she was waiting for in life.

If your employrer hires you to do a job for a certian fee. This should be the end of it. When you are no longer willing to do the job for this or he is no longer willing to pay you , you leave. Don't understand the scheming for unemployment or spreading dirt on other employees when you have the chance to find another job before severing the ties. If you find yourself without a job and without prospect and you have responsibilites, then maybe just maybe there is some justification for feeling "wronged" or wanting compensation even though you are no longer earning it after you leave.

[Alan W]

I take extreme exception to the phrase "spreading dirt."
Management can cause pain . . . that's OK, but employees responding is "spreading dirt?"
Thank you very little.
As for the only condition that justifies a response being one where the employee is hurt . . .
That's not my value system.
Sorry.
Based on that statement . . . attention all employees:
Your manager can drop a load on you, but unless you have "responsibilities" you'll have have to grin, bear it, and get another job. The manager has every right to continue as before.
Perhaps in your environment that's OK.
But, not in the ones I came from.
By the way . . .
Statement from one of the major lab owners here in Houston:
"I can do anything I want with these people. Even if its illegal. They're too stupid and too poor to do anything about it!"

So, why don't you separate the legitimate abuse from the illegitimate abuse and I'll go after the ones that are illegitimate and you can defend the ones that are legitimate.

Recipients should seek other opportunities purely on the basis that they can do better and most likely won't find another abusive manager. But, don't mix responding from exiting. You are completely unjustified if you combine the two as one.

That's what keeps bad managers in charge and thwarts the development of potentially good people with a legitimate employer.

My apologies, Chip. But, I really don't think you would allow a bad manager under you to abuse an employee if you knew that employee had potential and was being abused. That's my point. As a bad managers boss . . . you need to now that there is waste and carnage going on and it is not in your or your company's best interest to dispose of good employees if they are being wasted by one of your supervisors.

Or, do you think that little of employees and are you even aware that one of your trusted leaders may be doing a number on some good people who want to do a good job? How will you even find out you have a rotten egg in your midst? Do you care? Or are you deluded into thinking that your supervisors are faultless? And, if you are the boss over supervisors what right do you have to put employees at risk, as well as your company, and the possible sacrifice of some good bottom line performance, under what could be other good developmental managers.

You are begging the question!

Employees under stress need to seek a more stress free environment. Granted. Company owners and senior managers need to watch real close at whats going on . . . or a good screem will topple your walls of Jerico!

I'm not revisiting this issue. Supervisory skills are really the issue here. You can't defend poor supervisory skills and throw the issue on employee shoulders.