Iraqi prisoners

[chm2023]

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

Read it and weep.

[Pete Hanlin]

Yeah, that's a pretty sad story- hopefully the military court system manages to charge and convict all those involved.

[chm2023]

It looks like they will. There appears to be evidence of more systemic problems. Unfortunate the damage a group of profoundly idiotic people can do to sully the name of the brave young men and women fighting in Iraq.

And on that subject, excellent editorial today in NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/04/op...04BROY.html?th

The info on children of Congressmen is pretty shocking.

[hcjilson]

Haven''t read the Times piece yet but the New Yorker article is pretty damming.Paticularly the last statement of the defense atty who rightfully observed that the army would never have relieved or reprimanded a general officer over the action of 6 men.This will go a lot further and involve a lot more people than you can imagine. What a mess this situation is. Then to find out that the Army has hired a civilian company to interogate prisoners...........Probably a division of Haliburton.
hj

[chm2023]

I have to admit I was stunned when I heard that interogators were contract employees. In fact, I still have a hard time getting my head around this. What sort of company has this skill set??? The fellow who wrote the New Yorker piece was interviewed last evening on ???? He maintains that the photos we have seen so far are just the tip of the iceberg and that as we speak there are deals being cut with various press organizations willing to buy like photos. I feel for the people trying to pull the June 30 hand-over together. One step forward, two steps back.

[mrba]

It happens in every war... I must say the pictures I saw looked more like a skull and bones initiation, and less like torture, pictures can be faked of course. For sure the fools who did this will be punished.

This whole business of interrogation can never be pretty. Where does one draw the line between stressing someone and torturing them? Well for sure some heads are gonna roll.
I agree with chm, Who comes from a company with a skill set for interrogation?!!!

[Darris Chambless]

I have been following this since the word came out about it. While I believe these people need to prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if found guilty I'm not convinced that there was not a purpose for these actions and photo's. Look at what was being depicted. Everything done, and everything photographed or filmed are all against muslim religous belief specifically. The actions seem too reckless to not have had a reason for doing and them and photographing or filming them. Just doesn't make sense to me. Although some of the things described are harsh, we are at war. Drastic measures are sometimes implimented to get information out of combatants we just typically don't see these measures like we have this time. They can be and are effective whether you like them or not or think they're too harsh or not. It's war and war ain't pretty. Sorry.

If it is found out that this was not an interrogation ploy and these people were being clowns then I say hang 'em and hang um high. If it is found out that this was an interrogation ploy then the military personel that released these photos needs to be hung for releasing classified documentation and should get no mercy from the court. If vital intel was gathered due to these actions with the prisoners then the military personel that released these photo's and information needs to be tried, convicted, hung and then shot (imo)

Agree or disagree with that I really don't care especially since we definitely show our prisoners, as a general rule, more compasion than those enemy combatants would show us in the same situation. Geneva Convention rules were designed to shackle the US and no one else. We're the only country that tends to follow those rules during war and I think those rules are outdated and I know they were never enforced by or against anyone but us.

btw intresting scenario:
http://sea2fd.sea2.hotmail.msn.com/c...c8a382ba95f80f

Darris C.

[mrba]

The actions seem too reckless to not have had a reason for doing and them and photographing or filming them.

I think something else is up with this whole thing. To my recolection, this type of atrocity in previous military engagements goes something like summary execution, not beat him up and take a picture smiling.

Who would be that stupid anyway? "oh look at me peeing on the prisoner".

It just doesn't add up.

[hcjilson]

Its going to start adding up for Rumsfeld! :) hj

[Darris Chambless]

Its going to start adding up for Rumsfeld! :) hj

Nope. Wait and see.

Darris C.

[chm2023]

This is becoming increasingly unsettling. I can't get over the breakdown of discipline. How far this goes up the chain is the big question, but frankly it's hard to believe the military would entrust prisioner interrogation to such low level troops, and the photography is of course a real big hint that this was shall we say unsupervised. This bring up what to me is as big as a problem as direct knowledge from a higher level, how did this permissive and lewd atmosphere develop and flourish? The 2 deaths are a whole other issue. This is like a bad dream.

[hcjilson]

Its not unsettling for RUSH! He thinks its perfectly acceptable behaviour. He has no idea what damage has been done to the people who still server there from what I heard at lunch refuses to believe anything was wrong with it. These idiots have played right into the hand of the radical muslims. Calling them stupid would be giving them too much credit!
hj

[mrba]

Its not unsettling for RUSH! He thinks its perfectly acceptable behaviour. He has no idea what damage has been done to the people who still server there from what I heard at lunch refuses to believe anything was wrong with it. These idiots have played right into the hand of the radical muslims. Calling them stupid would be giving them too much credit!
hj

I listened to Rush as well today. He makes the point that the pictures are specifically targeted to incite anger toward american values... For instance a female soldier pulling a prisoner by the neck is contrary to women barefoot and uneducated in that part of the world. (I'll bet iraqi women are elated behind their birkas).

I think these pictures are being carefully orchestrated. I do not think this abuse is wide spread. And I am not surprised it occured in the first place.

I think Rush's other point that no one mourned the soldiers that were drug through the streets and humiliated before they were murdered is quite telling, of how the press is carrying this story.:finger:

I agree with DC. We are the only ones ever held to the Geneva accords. And thats fine for the high and mighty. But if we are really no different than anyone else, or for that matter worse than other countries, then perhaps we shouldn't be given so much grief for doing the same as them!!!

I refer you to the latin below...

[hcjilson]

I think these pictures are being carefully orchestrated. I do not think this abuse is wide spread. And I am not surprised it occured in the first place.

.

I agree completely.But this was orchestrated by someone a lot higher up than a staff sergeant.What possibly could they have been thinking about?I think we all agree that we are made to look bad.....but to do it on purpose? Not brillient in my opinion!

[Darris Chambless]

Being an election year means that any and everything can and will become cannon fodder. However, after the election it will be amazing to see just how fast these things will just disappear and become a moot point. Many of these things will disappear before the election as well just because there won't be anything to it and no, I would doubt that Donald Rumsfeld will resign over this. I'm sure he's had to deal with worse in the past not to mention it's just silly to even think it. He's doing a fine job, Bush is doing a fine job, Ashcroft is doing a fine job, Tennet is doing a fine job so let them do their jobs and get on with it. Not be too repetive but IT IS AN ELECTION YEAR. It's an election year and for those of you that may not know what that means, things like this will crop up and be blown way out of proportion without all the facts from now until the election. You will see a lot of fabrication as well. You always know it isn't what it seems when people like Robert Byrd and Teddy Kennedy get out there and make a scene.

As far as abuse or torture is concerned, the pictures that I've seen thus far sure don't qualify as such to me unless you consider hurting someones feelings or embarrassing them infront of others to be abuse or torture. I personally do not consider hurt feelings or embarrassment to be abuse and torture. I'm not going to say that actual abuse and torture do not take place in some of these incidents but we will not be privy to those things I can assure you. All we will see are pictures such as those released so far and they will be played up well beyond what they actually depict or actually are (kind of like what we're seeing now but to a greater degree) Putting a dog leash around someones neck and having them pose for a picture just doesn't even come close to mistreatment as far as I'm concerned.

As I've said before, because of the manner in which these pictures released so far are done I'm not inclined to believe it was torture or abuse but rather done for propoganda purposes but was derailed by the released of the pictures to the American press. It became propoganda against our own instead of what it was intended to be.

Take care,

Darris C.

[Cindy Hamlin]

There is a local Richmond soldier that is in some hot water over it. He is a guardsman that works for a local correctional facility here. His wife was on the news talking about her husband being used as a scaprgoat by the military and that he would never treat any prisoners with anything but respect and the military was using him for the dall guy. They showed a pic of him with his arm around an Iraqi child.

The next day on the Today show I saw the blurred pictures of the prisoners and low and behold there was one of this "wrongly accused" man with the blurred out privates of an Iraqi prisoner behind it. Needless to say, there has been no follow up!

[EyeManFla]

This is all just so much ****!

Where are the "good arabs" showing concern for dead Americans being dragged through the streets.

You want to end this war...5 or 6 well placed 50 megaton warheads should do the trick!

[For-Life]

[QUOTE=EyeManFla] This is all just so much ****!

Where are the "good arabs" showing concern for dead Americans being dragged through the streets.
[QUOTE]

That's not the point. Americans (as well as Canadians) are supposed to be better than that.

Edit - I don't know why the quote didn't work :angry:

[chm2023]

I was very surprised by some of what Rumfeld had to say yesterday, specifically his reply to McCain's question of who was in charge, what was the chain of command at the prison. He responded they were looking into that. Wha????? The murkiness of the chain of command is inexcusable under any circumstances, never mind a war zone. I'm beginning to think Rumfeld might be too old for this.

What is now coming out is that these guards were reserve military police with no training in the prison guard arena, let alone the specifics of the duty they drew. These untrained citizen soldiers were then moved under the supervison of military intel who brought in private contractors to perform the actual interrogation work. Who is in charge indeed. (Particularly cute: when reminded that he had stated that the Geneva Convention did not apply to terrorists, Rummy replied he meant that in relation to Afghanistan--where we were fighting terrorists, not Iraq--where we are fighting insurgents and remnants of the SH loyalists. Someone should advise Bush of this, he keeps referring to Iraq as a "war on terror".)

And who was the crackerjack who came up with the idea of using Saddam's gulag as our military prison?

I was against this from the get-go (and have to say I haven't had any call to re-think that position); that said, we have bought ourselves this responsibility and need to do the right thing, not leave the Iraqis with a civil/ethnic war. Unfortunately, the more the ineptness of the administration comes home to roost, the louder the "cut and run" chorus will get. (A lot of folks don't put it in those terms, but that is what they mean.)

Funny how hubris always turns out like this, just a question of how long it takes.

Say a prayer boys and girls, we need it.

[chip anderson]

Rumsfeld should be replaced. Not because of what was done by the military, but because it is a minor insignificant incident as he first said. Then he caved in an appearently actually fears the press. What kind of courage do you have in a Secretary of Defence if he is afraid the press or public opinion?

We need leaders with courage even when they are wrong.

Chip

[BobV]

but I do believe there are terrorists in Iraq. Foreign ones at that. And with that being said, all's fair in love and war-and this ain't love. And that makes it a war on terror.

Also, is there a difference between an insurgent letting fly an rpg and a terrorist letting one go? Is there a difference between an insurgent planting a homemade bomb or a terrorist planting one? I think not. The purpose of these acts is to create a aura of fear, aka terror.

Think of it this way, whether it be through torture or embarassment, the will of the terrorist needs to be broken. You can't have the upper hand if all you're going to do is kiss their tushes day in and day out.

Bob V.

[mrba]

Today on a drudge report picture, a naked prisoner was shown surrounded by guards with dogs. The quoted headline from the new yorker said something like "Photos show dog attacking naked iraqi detainee". That isn't what the picture showed. In the New Yorker article, it was said that the prisoner was bleeding from his leg, as he was being restrained by jail police.


Maybe the dog bit him. but that aint torture. Now every little incident will be parlayed on the coatails of this torture stuff. And the american people will connect the two in their heads, even though they are unrelated.

Perhaps police brutality would be a better term than torture.

[Darris Chambless]

but I do believe there are terrorists in Iraq. Foreign ones at that. And with that being said, all's fair in love and war-and this ain't love. And that makes it a war on terror.

Actually Bob, war is war and war isn't pretty. And it's not a happy party...and it gets downright...well war like, but you understand that; some do not, however. Those that don't understand that can say what they want and complain as it is their right to do so but the fact of the matter is still that they haven't a clue about what goes on in situations like these because they don't want to and turn it into politics. Once this is done our troops are in more danger and that creates and even more vitriol political environment and starts a vicious cycle.

Also, is there a difference between an insurgent letting fly an rpg and a terrorist letting one go? Is there a difference between an insurgent planting a homemade bomb or a terrorist planting one? I think not. The purpose of these acts is to create a aura of fear, aka terror.

Yes Bob but we're talking about liberal think here. Remember Bush is Hitler, he's stupid, he's incompitent, he can't talk, he started this war, he's in with Enron, he's in with Haliburton and so is Cheney, he's a Coke addict, he's a drunk, he went in unilaterally, he never went to the UN, he knew about 9/11 before it happened, he's making terrorism worse, this war is a quagmire, Afghanistan is a quagmire and the list goes on. Now, just between you and I can you think of a single one of these that wasn't a fabrication about Bush's political standings? While there is some truth in one or two of those things it was not what it was portrayed to be by his political enemies.

Think of it this way, whether it be through torture or embarassment, the will of the terrorist needs to be broken. You can't have the upper hand if all you're going to do is kiss their tushes day in and day out.

Bob V.

Again my friend while you and I as well as others, understand this there are some that do not. That is why they are not incharge of these operations and we're all better off for that fact. There are some that do not understand this that are in positions of authority that are trying to take charge but that cannot happen and will not happen unless we want to lose in the fight against terror and terrorists. I guess we will see the guard change when the situation has been handled or when America is ready to lose in a battle that we've fought so dilegently in. For now just listen to the complaints as well as the political lies and know where they come from and that they are what they are.

And who was the crackerjack who came up with the idea of using Saddam's gulag as our military prison?

Please tell me you're not serious.

Take care,

Darris C.

[mrba]

For now just listen to the complaints as well as the political lies and know where they come from and that they are what they are.

I must admit that political lies go both ways.

[Darris Chambless]

I must admit that political lies go both ways.

That is why I did not differentiate in that sentence.

Take care,

Darris C.