How would you advise a new apprentice?

[hcjilson]

I received a call today from a new apprentice just outside of Boston. She is a new apprentice and was looking for a proscribed learning schedule for Optical apprentices. The department of Labor and Industries used to have one but I am not sure it is still in use. While I wait for an official answer I thought I would ask my peers how they would advise a new apprentice, and what sort of schedule of learning they would recommend.

I also told her it would be a good idea to register here so keep your eyes out for her.
Thanks for any imput.

hj

[wmcdonald]

That is the falacy of Apprenticeship, Harry. If we had some commonality of training and education, this profession would move ahead. We need to change the name from Apprenticeship to what it actually is; CHEAP LABOR. Before someone gets upset, I know you were trained by the best Optician that ever lived, and you studied a lot. That is not the issue, however. Until we have a prescribed method of training ALL Opticians, we are swimming up stream!..
Warren

[Cowboy]

Warren, I disagree, what you call swimming upstream, I call the value of great minds. If I teach you how to dispense, but after a few solo's you find a method that seams to fit better, than who is the teacher? As far as the Apprentice goes, I would start with volume one - Basic Optics. Call ABO and get some reference material and start from there. Until the state can provide you with the info you desire, at least get them started on some basic knowledge.

:cheers:

Cowboy

[jofelk]

At least one year in a full service optical lab; they will know what can and should not be done!

Then give them to a person experienced with fitting and dispencing eyeglasses; another year of learning.

[hcjilson]

apprenticeships would be phased out, replaced by formal education. In fact I spoke with the young lady about a distance learning approach leading to an associates degree. In fact, one of the links I sent her was to the NFOS links page

http://www.nfos.org/links.html

Which has their distance learning link on the top of the page.

However, we do not live in a perfect world, and her good faith question begs an answer.This Commonwealth established the apprenticeship program by statute in 1956 and right now we have to live with it. I spoke briefy with her employer who has the best intentions of teaching his employee to become a licensed optician. He is not using the program to take advantage of an employee but rather recognises a desire to learn and is willing to teach. I think this is terrific and I was asked for some direction, and in turn I ask all of you the same.

Warren would enroll her in a distance learning program leading to an associates degree.(I would do the same but have no idea whether circumstances will permit this)

Cowboy would have her contact ABO for some direction. (that was the second website I sent her to so I was not off base)

Jo would have her spend some time in a wholesale lab. ( reminds me of the lunch hours I was sent to the AO branch in Sringfield when I was coming up) also excellent advice!

Thats a good start but what should she begin to learn? What learning should her first 6 months encompass? Her second ?third fourth and fifth sixth?

[Excel-Lentes]

Hi,

If life permits, I would consider a 2 year degree program for opticianry. I realize this is a difficult commitment (I did it, but it went by fast). I have tried apprenticeship and it didn't work; nobody able or willing to teach. In school, I learned the full scope and I believe I wouldn't have learned half of it without school.

I do wish I had a better mentor on-the-job while going to school. This would allow better guidance putting theoretical knowledge to practical application.

I don't mean to diss apprenticeship but it just doesn't seem to work nowadays. I have met some brilliant opticians that were trained this way (many moons ago!) but it seems good teachers are hard to find and offices are too busy to take the time to nurture apprentice opticians.

I think if she has the determination and a good teacher she will succeed. Best of luck.

-Brendan :)

[Jackie L]

Hi Harry,
You are right. This young lady deserves an answer. While living in Maine and working part time in Massachusetts I was approach by an inspector in Mass. in regards to licensing. (they were prepared to fine the optical establishment). I was not licensed in Massachusetts and Maine is an unlicensed state so there was no reciprocity.
I documented 4 years of experience for the Mass board and after a hearing was granted licensure in the State of Massachusetts. When I moved to Virginia 3 years ago, I presented the same document to the VA board and this was accepted as well. All I had to do was take the practical. I would be happy to share this document with the young lady if she still needs guidance. 22 years ago I wish I had someone to guide me as well.
I strongly agree with Warren that a degree is the way to go. Perhaps the young lady would consider distance learning.

[Chris Ryser]

jofelk said:

At least one year in a full service optical lab; they will know what can and should not be done!

In a full service lab an apprentice becomes cheap labour and will have to produce.

An apprentice should do the practical learning in the workshop of a well seasoned optican who can show them the ropes in all aspects of practical retail work.

This means: Learn to handle lenses in all aspects from manual to automatic edging and mounting, repair work, add ons like tinting and so forth.

No apprentice can master the full duties of an optical cut and grind retail lab in one year, it takes much longer.

The duty of the optician who takes on an apprentice should be to to teach them the practical handling from the bottom up and will have a few costly moments because an apprentice will spoil lenses and frames at the beginning.

For theoretical learning of the optics he or she should attend local courses if available, and if not, take courses offered through the internet or by mail.

In Europe a apprentiship is a 4 year long learning process with final exams in theoretiocal knowdlege as well as a 2 day exam in practiclal work.

Only then an apprentice will be allowed to start learning the activities in the optical selling department.

When passed through a proper learning process you will have GOOD opticians that will never forget the first years of learning and gaining ecpirience.

[wmcdonald]

the problem is that when you train by apprenticeship, the apprentice is limited to the knowledge and perspective of the trainer. Apprenticeships were phased out many years ago by other professions, and despite scientific research that unequivocably the it does not deliver the goods, we still maintain it as though it is the holy grail! It is anyone's right to disagree, but most often that individual was an apprentice, and feel threateded for some reason. They have done well, so it should be OK for others. If Henry Ford felt that way we would all be driving horses and buggys! Politically, the profession must move ahead. What if the same argument was used to approve apprenticeships for ODs, or worse, physicians. Most of you would not want a physician treating you who had no formal education. They also have to do an internship and residency to get the clinical experience. Opticians are more than mere frame salespeople, although that is where we are headed. If you want to argue that it doesn't take a degree to make a good pair of spectacles, I agree with you. But if your idea of an Optician includes far more than that, then you should be open minded enough to msee the big picture for the future, not today. I am sorry for people who find it impossible to go to school, but with the online programs at Hillsborough and other institutions, there is no excuse. It is imperative that we move from this mindset to advance. This issue is not a personal one, but one of significant importance to Opticianry's survical. In the past, there were excellent trainers who were well-versed in all phases of Opticianry. Today, many began in the optical shop at some large organization and began training others. They do not have a lab, and get no training other than sales and repairs and some adjustments. Just look at this board and think back to some of the posts. I remember one that discussed the way to adjust temples; the rounded curve or the bend.....if I need to explain how silly that was you would not understand anyway so I won't waste the effort. These corporate trainers base their training programs on cvompany manuals that are usually limited at best, and on what they know and feel comfortable with. Education should be coupled WITH the training mentioned by Cowboy and others. Education is not a bad thing, and will not hurt anyone. I can't remember the last student who ran from the classroom in pain due to learning....Please think about my argument here, and know it comes from 30+ years of experience. I am an educator and believe strongly in its benefits. I have seen it work. And believe me, I have been before legislative bodies and been killed by groups with far more education than us that competes with us. Be honest with yourself, if you were not an Optician and served in the legislature, and we came before you arguing for licensure or advanced scope of practice, and the ODs argued against it, who would you vote with? If you have heard my lectures, then you know that first, I am an Optician and proud to hold that title. I want all who hold it to be well-educated AND well trained. If we do not change our mindset then we will not move ahead. I will not rest until we do.

Best regards,
Warren

[Lee Prewitt]

Well said Warren! If we as Optician want to take our profession to the next level, we need to dispel the notion that anyone can instantly begin and be called one. However...we live in a real world were the standards vary from state to state.

Harry...my suggestion is this. Begin immediately with frame fitting, followed by basic lens designs and functions and then frame adjustments. This should cover the first 6 months easily. While doing this, start the formal education process, either by distance learning or self teach through ABO, etc. We may not all agree with apprenticeship but the concept is to learn from a master. I hope her teacher takes the time to pass on the practical knowledge that is so missing today.

Everyone is right that has posted so far, but she lives in an apprenticeship state and wants to know what to start learning first. Just my thoughts.

[mrba]

Im sure somwhere out there is a good optician school. I have never met anyone that wasn't good who hadn't been doing this for at least 10 years though.

Expirience, expirience, experience

[CME4SPECS]

Keep your apprentice in the back room putting in screws, nosepads, restringing rimless, tinting, etc. Teach them to bevel, size lenses, mount, etc. Teach them how to read lenses in the lensometer, how to lay out lenses etc. When you think they are provicient at these tasks, slowly introduce them the dispensing area and not until!

I started in optics as a 17 year old working in a lab @$1.65 an hour. My first weeks were pulling laps for fining glass. When I could pull them without mistakes I was allowed to run the fining machines, that's all I did for 8 hours a day...for weeks. Once I could be trusted to pass the fined lenses to the polisher without problems, I then went to the polishing machines, it took time to recognize the "gray" in the center of the lenses. After weeks of doing this, I was able to know when a lens needed to be put back on the polisher and when they could be passed. Finally I got to run the generator and block lenses. It was probably 2 years before I learned to lay out lenses for surface blocking. I had yet to touch a frame! They weren't even in the surface room! After 3 years of working in surfacing, I moved to the finish room, at this point I didn't even know what a lensometer was. I spent several
weeks learning the lensometer and learning the edger. In those days we ran the lenses for metal frames a little big and finished by hand, so lens sizing was something else that I had to be proficient at, before I could move to something else. I had to bevel lenses with no "stop" marks and they were very picky about the bevel angles and the amount of bevel visible from the front of the lens, the owners hated washers.
I worked at that lab for 4 years, my pay upon leaving was $2.25 an hour. Yes, I was CHEAP labor! But I'll tell something, I know how to make a pair of glasses! When I left there you could hand me an rx and a pair of semi-finished lenses and I could make you a pair of glasses.
I then went to work for a Guild Optican, as a finish optician. I worked in the back room and had no contact with the public for a year or two, I then was called out when the dispensers got busy. I would take on repairs or discuss tints, but did no fittings of any kind. It was gradual, but, I finally after 6 years from when I started surfacing,I got to fit frames and take pds, measure segs etc. I soon become the top dog in sales and was a manager after several years.

Now you call me a slow learner or whatever you want, but, I feel pretty fortunate that I was able to learn a trade, and get paid as I went along. I had some pretty good teachers, that taught me from the bottom up! They were stubborn about teaching anyone to much too fast. I guess they didn't want anyone to think they knew it all.

Now if you want to start that young lady out fitting frames and selling lenses...go ahead!

She'll end up like most... knowing how to sell frame, that's about it.
It's people with that type of training that contributes to my success!

[wmcdonald]

There is the key word. Opticians are professionals in many states, not tradesmen. There is far more to Opticianry....contact lenses, low vision, etc. that require more comprehensive knowledge than "making glasses". Today's advanced lens designs require someone who really understands optics to even be able to explain the design. I think it important to differentiate the differences. I am lookng into the future amd want something more for future Opticians. Many will be selfish and comment based upon their sphere of knowledge. If you cannot see the difference in "making glasses" and a professional Optician's scope of practice then I really don't think I will be able to clear it up for you. I respect all of you here, especially those who had to learn on their own, simply feel that to get ahead as a PROFESSION, then we need an education. It should never have been something anyone could do. Opticians have a proud history and that title means more to me than that. I do not intend to be disrespectful to those who did not go to school. I merely feel that it is the way to go in the future.

[Chris Ryser]

wmcdonald said:
There is the key word. Opticians are professionals in many states, not tradesmen. There is far more to Opticianry....contact lenses, low vision, etc. that require more comprehensive knowledge than "making glasses".

So far I believe everybody is right in the previous post's

It looks like there is the following result:

A FULL FLEGED AND PROFESSIONAL OPTICIAN HAS TO HAVE THE FOLLOWING QUALIFICATIONS:

1) Formal period of practical learning of ............................much time.

2) Formal theoretical schooling of .........................much time.

Pass Exams on each points above, set on a national or international standard.

Receive diploma.

3) Diploma should or would be a starting point for a better class of job qualification and salary renumeration even in States that are not regulated

If you want to go further: In Europe there are 2 degrees of opticians, which are:

a} OPTICIAN

b) MASTER OPTICIAN

Requirements for a master degree are much higher, specially in theoretical optical schooling, in optical knowdlege and business.
(in Europe they also refract, and we are NOT suggesting that)

c] Exam with diploma

[B[Having such a status will qualify a person to become full fledged manager of an optical store, even in non regulated states[/B]

Many of you out there who are professional or semi professionals educators should get together and set up some standards along the above suggested lines or better.

In present times where the internet is one of the strongest medias for information you CAN make a certification of anything a matter of importance if handled properly.

"You could and can actually involve all your suppliers and manufactures to promote preferred employement conditions of highly qualified opticans in the retail trade" on their websites. This will circumvent all your State regulations and the opticians that do have the qualification will get better and higher paid positions, because the public will also be informed at the same time".

[wmcdonald]

I agree with you Chris, but keep im mind the chains are now the primary source of jobs. They want to minimize personnel costs as much as possible. I do not blame them, they are business people making a living. Look at Pharmacists for a moment. The salaries for these professionals are huge! They continually upgraded their education and training to now have the PharmD as the entry level professional level degree. If we did the same and stuck together as peers, we could force the corporate organizations to compensate us at our full worth. As it is, however, Opticians come from very little formal education, and minimal training requirements, and fight tooth and nail about keeping an out-dated and long abandoned training method we never did correctly in the first place. If all we are to be are frame salespeople, then we need to move in that direction....I will not be around, but it would please many I am certain. In that situation, many of you would not have to come to the CE seminars; you could stay at home and sleep! I want a better world for Opticians. One in which all Opticians are licensed and board certified in specialty areas. One in which we can ALL be proud to be Opticians again, and in which we again play a role in what happens in our industry. One that allows us to do more than "sell or make eyeglasses". The chains are doing business from a retail perspective. It does not matter to them what credentials you have, except for a license in licensed states. Even many eye doctors of both backgrounds have a low opinion of Opticians (note I said many, I am sure your doc loves you and values your opinion. I am not speaking directly to you). They generally feel it takes little to do what we do. "They train on the job don't they......"? If you think about it, it takes little to measure a PD/Seg Height, and write a receipt, which is what many of us do. Most can't find the power of a lens in a meridian, so how can they correctly analyze an Rx? The Master's Certificate in Ophthalmic Optics is a valuable credential and not easy to get! In another discussion on this board, we discussed this valued credential, which I hold. I am proud of it, but it never put a penny in my pocket. Many of us have become increasinly frustrated much like another early group of Opticians in the first part of the last century. Those who progressed are now Optometrists. I agree with Chris...we need two levels. One a professional level and one a technical level. That is the correct answer. There is a need for mid-level Opticians, which I have espoused for many years. I am pleased to hear someone else espouse this idea. Think about it a bit, and let us all come together in a positive direction as one voice. It is the only way to move forward.

Warren

[Jacqui]

I got my start about the same way CME4SPECS did. Worked several years for AO in Sioux City, Iowa and some of the other wholesalers there in the late 60's and early 70's. Learned dispensing from the OD's and Opticians and took a few gereal Optometry courses as I could. Still not licensed or certified, but since I spend all my time in the lab I've never needed it.

[BobV]

you probably would not expect me to agree with you, but I will on the education part. But, read evrybody's postings again. Most if not all learned by HANDS ON experience which IS education no matter how you look at it.

As a former mortician, I had the schooling, but it took HANDS ON experience to be proficient. Same with physicians and od's.

Now, I've got a friend who is a journeyman pipefitter, went through 4 years of combined schooling and apprenticeship. He considers himself a TRADESMAN and makes anywhere from $25 to $30 per hour.

What I'm saying is this---it doesn't matter what title you have, be it "professional" or "trades(person)", if you ain't got schooling, you ain't gonna get the pay.

Being booksmart alone won't help you out. This is a business where your hands will definitely feed you.

Bob V.

[wmcdonald]

.....is important, but it must be delivered in some standardized form. If you do something 100 times and consider yourself proficient, but are doing the task improperly you have EXPERIENCE, but not the understanding to do it correctly. Morticians in this state go through rigorous 1 and 2 year programs and there are now BS degrees in some jurisdictions. They read the research that clearly shows apprenticeship to be less than optimal for professional education. I do not disagree at all that an apprenticeship can be structured to transfer knowledge, but it is not the typical on-the-job learning that opticianry employs for the vast majority of its suppossed professionals. For us to continue to argue something so ludicrous is ridiculous in and of itself, but to try to compete with other professions who have far out-paced us educationally is without explanation. Try going before a legislative body and explain the way we educate ourselves. We must move into the next century of education and training. It should include a formal education coupled with clinical/hands-on training to provide a well-rounded professional Optician.