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Thread: low 16 height progressive

  1. #1
    OptiWizard
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    low 16 height progressive

    What is everyone out there using for a 16 high progressive?

    My lab rep claims my present companies short lens is having back order problems, but this lab rep has forked tongue, maybe they owe the company $$. (I won't say which lens company because rumours can be damaging if not true).

    So, should I need to change lenses, I would like to know what the rest of you have success with at 16 high.

    Harry
    Last edited by harry888; 02-27-2004 at 11:48 PM.

  2. #2
    One of the worst people here
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    I have used the Nikon i and the Rodenstock XS. I still do not get a call for a lot of 16 heights. I do get a lot of 17 heights though. The Nikon i is a nice lens, but expensive, and I have only used the XS twice.

  3. #3
    Optimentor Diane's Avatar
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    This may not be all of the lenses, but here's information that I have from manufacturers on minimum fitting heights.

    Manufacturer Name Corridor Length Minimum Height
    AO/SOLA Compact 13 mm 17 mm
    AO/SOLA SOLAMAX 12.4 mm 18 mm
    Essilor Varilux Panamic 12.5 mm 18 mm
    Essilor
    Nikon Presio i 13
    13 mm 17 mm
    Hoya Summit CD 11 mm 14 mm
    Kodak ConciseTM 14 mm 17 mm
    Pentax AF mini 14 mm 17 mm
    Rodenstock Progressiv® XS 12 mm 16 mm
    Seiko Proceed II Short 14 mm 18 mm
    Shamir Piccolo 11.5 mm 16 mm
    Vision-Ease Outlook 14 mm 18 mm
    Younger Image® 13.5 mm 18 mm
    Zeiss Gradal Individual 14 mm 18 mm
    Zeiss Short i 11 mm 15 mm

    Diane
    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

  4. #4
    fortwo eye jediron's Avatar
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    Big Smile

    Diane I would like to see the manufacturing specs on the Hoya
    and the Zeiss. The Min. fit of 14 & 15 seem awful low. I have seen
    some dispensers fit at 16 hi without much luck. I don't care what the manufacture says in real life 18 is as low as I will fit a lens. I
    have seen to many people trying to just make the sale instead
    doing there job and correctly tell the patient this is not right for them. But Im willing to learn, I might try the Zeiss short and see
    how it works out.
    :drop:



    Remember: "It was the worst of times and it was the best times"
    No Im not talking about Bill Clinton. From Charles Dickens: "Tale Of Two Cities"

  5. #5
    Optimentor Diane's Avatar
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    jediron said:
    Diane I would like to see the manufacturing specs on the Hoya
    and the Zeiss. The Min. fit of 14 & 15 seem awful low. I have seen
    some dispensers fit at 16 hi without much luck. I don't care what the manufacture says in real life 18 is as low as I will fit a lens. I
    have seen to many people trying to just make the sale instead
    doing there job and correctly tell the patient this is not right for them. But Im willing to learn, I might try the Zeiss short and see
    how it works out.
    :drop:



    Remember: "It was the worst of times and it was the best times"
    No Im not talking about Bill Clinton. From Charles Dickens: "Tale Of Two Cities"
    I'm not sure what you are referring to as far as manufacturing specs are concerned, but this information came to me directly from the technical departments from each lens company.

    Diane
    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

  6. #6
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    One thing to also consider when fitting a low hieght is add power. The higher the add, the less effective the corridor and the add width. Regardless of what lens you choose, ensure that the manufacturer is specifying a specific add limitation and their coinsiding minimum ht. requirements.

    :cheers:

    Cowboy

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder karen's Avatar
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    harry, as much as I hate to say it, I have heard good things out in the field about the Hoya lens. I have a few accounts that have tried it, one even at 14 high and had success. I would try the Shamir Piccolo at 16 if it was a low add power. No way to talk them into a slightly larger frame???
    Let the refining and improving of your own life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others. -H. Jackson Brown Jr.

    If the only tool you have is a hammer you will approach every problem as though it were a nail

  8. #8
    Bad address email on file sjthielen's Avatar
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    Zeiss has a new short corridor progressive out called Brevity, it has a 16 mm fitting ht.

  9. #9
    One of the worst people here
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    My Essilor people tell me that they are coming out with a lens with a 10mm fitting height.

  10. #10
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    We use Rodenstock Life XS and have had no problems.

  11. #11
    fortwo eye jediron's Avatar
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    Big Smile

    Cowboy good point. Because as you know the higher the add
    the more you loose on the width and depth of any progressive.

    Diane. What I meant is actual specs from the different manufactorers. Because anybody can tell you they have a short
    progressive then you actual look at the specs and the graphing of the lens and you could not make it work for a monkey let a lone a human. Different companies use different techniques to graph and plot there lenses to prove there point, where in reality it's not a very good lens. Now I have seen some these specs and
    even tried a number of these lenses and for me they don't live up
    to all the hype they are given. That is why I would want to see the specs and technical data on each lens. Sorry for being picky.

    :drop:
    Last edited by jediron; 02-28-2004 at 10:01 PM.

  12. #12
    Rising Star sticklert's Avatar
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    The Essilor varilux lens will actually be a min fitting ht of 14mm and a corridor length of 9.5mm. It will be released April 1st and is called Elipse
    Todd Stickler, ABOC

  13. #13
    Master OptiBoarder JennyP's Avatar
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    ;) Can we trust anything released on April 1st?? ;)

    Sorry, I just couldn't resist.:p
    As a progressive lens wearer, moderate minus, moderate add, in a child's frame (I have a 52 pd and larger frames look like a joke on me) I am always interested in learning about a good "short" lens.
    "The Good Lord gave us mountains so we could learn how to climb". ~ Lonestar

  14. #14
    Rising Star sticklert's Avatar
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    You are right Jenny you can't trust April 1st. It may change.....However, I would much rather they change the date than relase the product knowing they can't support the demand. I would rather not sell the product at all than have to deal with back orders......VEE will be where everyone learns more about the product..
    Todd Stickler, ABOC

  15. #15
    OptiBoard Professional Eddie G's's Avatar
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    Yep we just started to use that new Zeiss Brevity for that reason!

  16. #16
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    10 mm .................??????????????

    For-Life said:
    My Essilor people tell me that they are coming out with a lens with a 10mm fitting height.
    ESSILOR invented the progressive lenses and always preached in the old days that a progressive lens needs at least 18mm to be an effective reading lens and give you some decent vision in the progressive area.

    If they come out with a 10mm they are just out for the buck of some of these aging baby boomer Ladies that want to wear the small kiddie frames and not show their age.

    In above posting the only one that makes sense is Jediron who made the right statement.

    As opticians you also should be advisors to your patients and customers and tell them that if they want one of these narrow progressives they will give up a lot of confort for a lot of money.

    Maybe soon HOYA will have an 8mm progressive to beat ESSILOR at this crazy nonsense game of being fashionable bot NOT practical.

  17. #17
    One of the worst people here
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    Re: 10 mm .................??????????????

    Chris Ryser said:
    ESSILOR invented the progressive lenses and always preached in the old days that a progressive lens needs at least 18mm to be an effective reading lens and give you some decent vision in the progressive area.

    If they come out with a 10mm they are just out for the buck of some of these aging baby boomer Ladies that want to wear the small kiddie frames and not show their age.

    In above posting the only one that makes sense is Jediron who made the right statement.

    As opticians you also should be advisors to your patients and customers and tell them that if they want one of these narrow progressives they will give up a lot of confort for a lot of money.

    Maybe soon HOYA will have an 8mm progressive to beat ESSILOR at this crazy nonsense game of being fashionable bot NOT practical.
    I do agree with you. I have told my Essilor people that I want to see some proof before I dispense this lens at said height. This lens is supposed to have no intermediate though. That can be the reason. They might of just widend the intermediate and bump up the power.

  18. #18
    OptiBoard Professional RT's Avatar
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    There's some confusion here between corridor length and fitting height. When talking about a low fitting height progressive, there are two separate specifications that are talked about:

    Fitting height--the distance from the fitting cross to the center of the near verification circle. This is the minimum height recommended from the bottom of the frame to the fitting cross--if fit lower, you may cut off too much of the area of 100% of full near power.

    Corridor length (sometimes called progression length)--the distance over which the power progression occurs. Since the power typically begins to vary several millimeters below the fitting cross, the corridor length is generally shorter than the minimum fitting height. For general purpose progressives with a min fitting height of 18-22 mm, corridor length would typically be around 14-18 mm.

    As Sticklert pointed out, Essilor is NOT coming out with a 10 mm min fitting height progressive. They ARE coming out with a 14 mm min fitting height progressive, which has a 10 mm (OK, 9.5 mm) corridor length. Such lens designs already exist in the market, and are being used very successfully.

    The HOYA Summit CD, for example, has an 11 mm corridor length and a 14 mm min fitting height. The design is such that 75% of Summit CD's produced in HOYA labs are actually fit at a seg height below 18 mm, as opposed to 40-50% for some competing short corridor designs.
    RT

  19. #19
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    RT gave some great info on short corridor progressives. Until a short time ago we used Piccolo at a 16mm fitting height and it did do the job. But now that Hoya has the Summit CD, this is the short corridor progressive of choice.

    I am currently wearing a pair of them, at a 16mm fitting hgt. They are great for everyday wear and computer use. The intermediate does really work and there is plenty of it to use.

    The Summit CD needs to be fit in a frame with a "B" measurement of not less than 24mm.

    I have many accounts that are having great success with this new lens. It's available in CR39, 1.60 & 1.70 materials.

    I'd definately give it a try!!!
    Good Luck

  20. #20
    OptiBoard Apprentice Gov't Mule's Avatar
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    Fitting Heights

    Hoya Summit CD:

    We have made at least 30 CDs at 14-16mm with only 2 returns, one for PD and one for LOWERING the seg height from 16 to 14, if you can believe that. The lens works. Use it.

    Varilux Ipiso: (sp?)

    Minium fittting height of 14mm (interesting) will be available in April.

    I am sure if you ask your Varilux lens rep or better yet an Essilor lab rep, they will tell you that you can fit the Panamic has a min. of 2mm. Honestly, they'll say whatever it takes for the sale.

  21. #21
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    Re: Fitting Heights

    Gov't Mule said:
    Hoya Summit CD:

    We have made at least 30 CDs at 14-16mm with only 2 returns, one for PD and one for LOWERING the seg height from 16 to 14, if you can believe that. The lens works. Use it.

    Varilux Ipiso: (sp?)

    Minium fittting height of 14mm (interesting) will be available in April.

    I am sure if you ask your Varilux lens rep or better yet an Essilor lab rep, they will tell you that you can fit the Panamic has a min. of 2mm. Honestly, they'll say whatever it takes for the sale.
    The Essilor lens witht he 14 fitting height is called the Elispe, as previously mentioned.

    The Ipeso is another lens to look at. This lens will be remarkable. It is supposed to have no distortion as it is the first ever completely custom lens. There is a machine that will outline the custom needs for the patient. The patient puts on a pair of goggles and looks at light movement on the machine. They then measure the dispersment from the eye and head movement. From there they can make the lens that will work the same was for the customer. It should be a huge technical improvement, but it does have a huge price ($900 retail Canadian for a pair, that includes their customized material that is best suited for the patient like 1.6 or 1.67 and Alize).

    As for my Essilor rep. I take what he says as being fact. My guy will tell you straight out. We have had a relationship with him for many years as he had a private lab before being bought out by Essilor.

  22. #22
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    As described above, Varilux Ellipse has a progression length of <10mm, and a minimum fitting height of 14mm. It is currently slated to be released on 1 April, and you will be hearing about this lens at Vision Expo East.

    Regarding launch dates, I fully understand the skepticism some of you have expressed. I can remember reading about products in 20/20 or Vision Monday and then waiting for what was seemingly an eternity for the product to actually arrive on the market.

    Having watched the process of new product development, let me tell you, it is an amazing string of events. Each time I think I have a grasp of all the aspects involved, I see new ones I never considered before. Ironically, most of the time it is not actually lack of inventory that causes a delay. Some products are sitting on the distribution center shelf months before launch. Other than making the product, a company has to create all the data and paperwork required to support ordering, distribution, marketing, software programming, and processing...

    Anyway, I would wager that Varilux Ellipse does launch by 1 April... Also, although it took a while to get it to market, the design is truly going to be especially well-suited for short corridor frames. As a rule, I do not like short corridor PALs (for the very reason described above- a quality progression does take a certain amount of space to accomplish). However, for the patient who just has to wear that tiny Anne Klein frame with a PAL, Varilux Ellipse will work well.

    Rodenstock Life XS, btw, is probably the shortest corridor PAL available today (Varilux Ellipse will be slightly shorter, but the real advantage will be the width of the distance zone in Ellipse compared to XS). In my opinion, only the XS and perhaps the Zeiss lens are currently truly "short" progressions. The other lenses mentioned here (and on the market) accomplish "shortness" via a variety of questionable design methodologies.

    Regarding intermediate, any truly short corridor lens is going to have a minimal intermediate zone. These lenses are not going to be especially well-suited for intermediate tasks.

    As for my Essilor rep. I take what he says as being fact. My guy will tell you straight out. We have had a relationship with him for many years as he had a private lab before being bought out by Essilor.
    I always viewed reps with a skeptical eye, but having met most of ours (here in the states, anyway), they are a great bunch of guys and gals who are pretty dedicated to helping their accounts in any way they can. Here in Florida, we have possibly three of the best lens representatives in the country- Dee Ham, Maureen Maglione, and Mitch Small. If you've ever been called upon by one of these three folks, you should know what I mean!
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  23. #23
    Piccolo is soft feeling, even though it is a shorter corridor. XS is a fully aspheric desighn, something most progressives are not.

    We have had success with both of them.

  24. #24
    Master OptiBoarder Clive Noble's Avatar
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    Ovation

    What about the Ovation from Essilor, we've been fitting this at 17mm and many times at 16mm without any problems. in fact this is one of our most popular lenses these days.

  25. #25
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Although Essilor Ovation was not designed to be a "short-corridor" PAL, it is relatively short. I've heard from numerous eyecare professionals who fit Ovation at 16-17 with good success.

    The research conducted when developing Varilux Ellipse turned up a couple interesting findings. First, not surprisingly, patients strongly preferred a short progression when wearing a small "B" frame. Secondly, and perhaps more interesting, patients wearing short "B" frames were most sensitive to peripheral restrictions in the distance portion of the lens.

    All truly "short" progressions are going to be relatively (relative to general use PAL designs, that is) narrow in the near zone. However, most of the "short" corridor PALs currently available on the market also use the distance periphery to distribute the unwanted cylinder that occurs with a seamless progression of power.

    Varilux Ellipse will have 140 degrees of clear distance. This is about 15% more than the closest competitor design, and really seems to improve patient acceptance of the lens. My theory is that this occurs because- in the end- most of us still use our eyewear for distance viewing more than for close tasks.

    Remember when eyewear started getting smaller in the 90s? Even single vision wearing patients would often comment "I can see the edge of the frame- it feels restrictive." Well, now that patients are somewhat used to the smaller frames, I think putting a progression in there- and robbing them of even more distance space- is even more restrictive.

    In my opinion, that is why a lens like Ovation (or any other general use PAL that has a progression short enough to give near function in a small frame) works better than the "short" PALs. Nothing against Shamir Piccolo, but the area of unrestricted distance viewing is only 103 degrees. AO Compact has 109 degrees, and Summit CD has 118 degrees. Compared to most general use PALs, these lenses restrict the area of distance viewing. In a small frame, the result is a very limited distance area.

    Of course, there are other considerations as well. For example, AO Compact is an extremely hard design that presents the wearer with a lot of motion in the near periphery. This explains why even general use PALs like Varilux Comfort score higher than AO Compact in wearer tests- even in the areas of near vision (where a design like AO Compact should theoretically excel).

    Before I am bombarded with all sorts of testimonials regarding how "well" all these short corridor designs work, let's consider something for a moment. Who purchases most short corridor frames? By age 70 or so, most of us have matured enough to accept that sometimes function is more important than fashion. The typical short corridor puchaser is, I would guess, in her 40s or 50s. What type of add powers do these people have? That's right, 2.00 or below. Its not exceptionally difficult to design a progression that works decently in the lower adds. Even blended bifocals work well at 1.50 add. Its when you get into the higher adds that the amount of progression begins to take a toll on the design. So, while a relatively poor design may allow the wearer to "get by" at the lower adds, the hallmark of a really good design will be how it functions across the range.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

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