Varilux (any style) vs Natural

**UFRich** · 02-24-2004, 11:32 AM

Is the benefit of the Varilux so vastly better than the Natural that I should justify the price difference to every PAL wearer?

UFRICH:cheers:

**Jim Stone** · 02-24-2004, 01:01 PM

You could put all progressives in a bag and pull one out and be just fine!

**Texas Ranger** · 02-24-2004, 02:10 PM

UFRich.... I began fitting Varilux lenses in 1978; have fit V2, Infinity, Comfort, and Panamics. I have also fit Naturals, Sola VIPs. Rodenstock Multigressives, Zeiss Gradals, and the Definity. And they are not the same, not remotely. other that in the "concept" of a progressive power. I think that the Multigressive is perhaps the best, but have price and production time restraints. I don't know that there is a great deal of difference between the pricing of the Natural and the Comfort, and the designs in low adds are close, but where these lenses get really different is when you get over a 2.00 add power. and I think that you must have a good understanding of base curves, and of strict monocular pds and monocular seg heights. one of the best things about the Varilux Comfort/Panamic lenses is the diversity of products and the rx ranges that some lenses don't offer. I have many pts that have run the full gammut of Vx design changes, including myself and staff members, the panamic is a better design than the Comfort, and both are better than most of the PAL designs out there. we have fit an average of a 1000 pair a year for over 20 years, have a reject rate of about 1 in 200 pr., so I do have enough experience fitting them to tell you that they are worth the litlle extra cost. btw in our shop a Natural is $15 less, and no one has ever wanted to save $15 that badly. and most pay extra for Crizal. did 1650 last year. So, when you sell them Varilux, they know that you want them to have the very best, and that builds pt loyalty. it's the safest lens to fit...

**Texas Ranger** · 02-24-2004, 02:12 PM

Jim Stone, so, working in the "optical lab", have you done any dispensing with a mature, demanding clientele, who are paying a serious amount of money for lenses these days? they are the only ones that can tell the difference, and they can...

**UFRich** · 02-24-2004, 03:03 PM

Texas Ranger, thanks for the info. I have been in the Veterans Hospital system for a few years and needed some updating with the new lenses available.

UFRICH:cheers:

**Jim Stone** · 02-24-2004, 04:19 PM

Texas Ranger said:
Jim Stone, so, working in the "optical lab", have you done any dispensing with a mature, demanding clientele, who are paying a serious amount of money for lenses these days? they are the only ones that can tell the difference, and they can...

:D :D :D :D :D

30 years. I am sure the old 1030 and some are terrible. As for the latest ones on the market today, the differnce is way overvalued in most cases. Don't worry Texas Ranger, this is not a retail forum. Sell your opinion to your clients. Not me, I know.

I'm sorry, I HAVE heard some bad reports on the panamic, I can't say for sure, I have never worn one.

**Pete Hanlin** · 02-25-2004, 06:24 PM

Dang, I spend a few days away from OptiBoard, and all the Varilux discussions begin...

I appreciate Jim's comments. I spend a lot of time evaluating PAL designs, and there are times when many of them do begin to look very similar. There are also definitely designs which are indeed practically the same (one company in particular always amuses me with the remakes of their own regular design under new names).

To the actual question, however- yes, there is a substantive difference between Essilor Natural and Varilux Comfort. The designs were created by different teams independently, utilize different design technologies, and yield different results when analyzed statically by machine or dynamically on wearers.

If they were qualitatively the same, Varilux Comfort- which is more expensive than Natural- would not be the most prescribed progressive in the world today (even though the design is now 10 years old). No marketing team in the world is good enough to get that many people paying extra for the exact same product.

Concerning Varilux Panamic, it is flat out a superior design to Varilux Comfort- no question about it. The design does more than Comfort, and requires greater precision when fitting to realize the benefits. This is why I am not surprised when I hear of "non-adapt stories." The more a lens does, the more precision it demands. Single vision lenses are easier to fit than bifocals, which are easier to fit than tri-focals, which are easier to fit than rudimentary PALs, which were easier to fit than Panamic.

Now, there are obviously other companies out there who also make products which are superior to the average. Personally, my opinion is there are approximately 5 really superior PAL designs out there. Varilux Comfort and Panamic are two of them, and two of them are made by a company other than Essilor. Then again, that's just my opinion.

Are all PALs alike? Yes and no. Yes from the standpoint that- fit properly- most progressives will work. No from the standpoint that- fit properly- there are several progressives which provide markedly better vision for the patient. To sum- Natural works, Comfort works better, and Panamic works better still.

How's that for the company line? If I didn't believe it, I wouldn't type it. But that's why we all get to have opinions I suppose...

**Jim Stone** · 02-25-2004, 06:53 PM

Jim Stone said:
:D :D :D :D :D

30 years. I am sure the old 1030 and some are terrible. As for the latest ones on the market today, the differnce is way overvalued in most cases. Don't worry Texas Ranger, this is not a retail forum. Sell your opinion to your clients. Not me, I know.

I'm sorry, I HAVE heard some bad reports on the panamic, I can't say for sure, I have never worn one.

**jediron** · 02-25-2004, 07:49 PM

Hey Jim I have worn Pan and find it far superior to any lens out there and yes I have tried the other ones ruffly about 5 different
ones from 5 different companies and I still perfer the Pan for better overal optics and field of view! Just my two cents but after 30 years I think my two cents are still worth 2 cents.

:D :bbg:

**mrba** · 03-05-2004, 10:16 PM

Hmmmm...
It is my understanding that comfort and panamic sales have been declining steadly for over a year. I must also beg to differ with the Essilor company line that b/c panamic is so superior the measurements must be perfect. Who wants a lens that has to be fit perfectly? Am I incompetant because my PD or seg ht is 1mm off? Lets be real here. My millimeters don't always add up and neither do any of yours every time(out there in optical world). I don't need a redo because my PD ruler was tired on friday.

Lets talk Panamic for a minute. A design that isn't even fully aspheric is supposed to be the height of technology? Switch a hyperope or high myope to Gradal (or any other fully aspheric lens for that matter) and you've got a smile every time.

"Everyone is doing it" has never convinced me of anything... on the contrary who wants to be like everyone else. If you can't make em see better than the last guy who tried you'll never keep em.

And one final Comment on Pete's post. Pete, you say there are five desighns that are the best out there, and then only name your two. How are we supposed to take your advice seriously if you are getting paid to say it? This post may be a bit brash, but we have all benefitted by the zillion dollar Essilor marketing machine, and this forum I would hope would put forth more than "the company line". As a moderator you should do more to facilitate this. Thats just my opinion, and maybe there are others that feel the same way. Or maybe I should just shut up!

Ok now let me have it... I know you french lens lovers out there just can't type back to this one fast enouph!

**For-Life** · 03-05-2004, 11:47 PM

I have had a lot of success with the Panamic, but lately I have been using the Ovation a lot and I have found it to be just as good or, in some cases, even better. I have a couple of employees who say that they cannot tell the difference between one lens and another, but when I put the Ovation of them it really cleared things up (one has high cyl the other is a high myope who is legally blind in one eye).

**Dot the Eye** · 03-06-2004, 11:07 AM

Well now.

I often come to "lurk" but rarely post for reasons that probably aren't very good. There are jewels of wisdom here that you can't find anywhere else.

But it's a rare thread that doesn't include an advertorial for someone's or someone's employer's best interests. The question is, is the motivation to contribute to the free flow of ideas in this forum based on the desire to help us grow our knowledge? Or is it self serving? If we can't trust the answer to that, where's our credibility?

**EyeManFla** · 03-06-2004, 03:11 PM

My Number 1 lens is the Natural, with the Ovation now Number 2.

Having said that, I still fit alot of Panamics.

I have been dispensing progressives since 1975. But more importantly, I have been wearing progressives since 1993. Of all the lenses I fit, I am most comfortable with the Natural for both ease of fit and price. Ovations do well with the under 50 crowd.

When it comes to the higher styled lines and three piece mountings, I go Panamic all the way.

I wear the Panamic in two pair of glasses and the Natural in two others. Are they different, you bet! Can I swith back and forth with a problem, sure I can!

As far as pricing is concerned, I believe that most labs are with in reason on their prices for Varilux. However, most of the labs where I buy Varilux really, really overcharge for Naturals.

My price for a panamic is less than $50.00 more than for a Natural - RETAIL. In some wholesale labs, the wholesale price between these two lenses can be within $25.00 of each other. And that shouldn't be.

Just remember one thing, most of your Babyboomers are going to whine no matter which lens you use....so use that lens that brings you the most profit.

**Jim Stone** · 03-06-2004, 04:33 PM

EyeManFla said:

As far as pricing is concerned, I believe that most labs are with in reason on their prices for Varilux. However, most of the labs where I buy Varilux really, really overcharge for Naturals.

Just remember one thing, most of your Babyboomers are going to whine no matter which lens you use....so use that lens that brings you the most profit.

I think you have hit the nail on the HEAD! Pricing IS the BIGGEST diffrence in progressives!

The reason the boomers moan about the PALs is 'cause you forget to show them the fuzzy parts of the lenses so when they find this they come back and show you. (One manufacturer named them "locator" zones.) LOL!
:D

**slate83** · 03-08-2004, 11:32 AM

Okay. Having done my own research on progressives, I have come to this conclusion:

Most people cannot tell the difference between progressive lens designs.

I had exclusively fit Panamics until we decided to go with the Optical Dynamics lens casting system. Their progressive is called the Paradigm progressive. I switched almost everyone who was wearing Panamics to the Paradigm progressive over a two year period. Our office averages about 50 pair of progressives per month. Over that two year period I had 2 people switch back to a Panamic.

I am thoroughly convinced that the Panamic bandwagon is purely a marketing generated craze. However, I continue to use the Panamic because of the fit warranty, the marketing that is put behind it and because of the variety of materials it is available in. If someone balks at the price, I happily offer them a lesser expensive progressive to satisfy their budget as long as the cheaper product is available with the options the customer needs.

**Pete Hanlin** · 03-08-2004, 12:12 PM

It is my understanding that comfort and panamic sales have been declining steadly for over a year.
You are under a misunderstanding, then- the percentage of Panamic sales continues to rise, just not as fast in the US market as it has in other markets.

I must also beg to differ with the Essilor company line that b/c panamic is so superior the measurements must be perfect. Who wants a lens that has to be fit perfectly? Am I incompetant because my PD or seg ht is 1mm off?
Regarding the requirement for precision of fit- using the same argument (that a superior lens should require less precision), a Flat-top would be superior to any PAL, since it requires less precision to fit. In fact, PALs require more precision because they attempt to do more than a segmented bifocal. Likewise, a progressive which is designed to produce wide areas of binocular vision (in addition to providing a quality central area of progression) will require more attention to fitting. Regarding your competence, I have no particular information- so I can make no assessment or comment.

Pete, you say there are five designs that are the best out there, and then only name your two. How are we supposed to take your advice seriously if you are getting paid to say it?
I am an Essilor employee, and take great pains to make this well known. The reason for this is precisely so you can keep my opinion in context. My point is, there are very few designs out there that are actually markedly better than the average PAL. If you are waiting for me to recommend you to a competitor product, you will be waiting for a long time. My point being, the two current Varilux designs are, in my opinion, two of the five that stand out- there are two other companies who make designs that are also, in my opinion, excellent.

The question is, is the motivation to contribute to the free flow of ideas in this forum based on the desire to help us grow our knowledge? Or is it self serving? If we can't trust the answer to that, where's our credibility?
Excellent point... I've been on OptiBoard much longer than I've been with Essilor. My goal now (as always) is to contribute, in any small way I can, to the body of knowledge here. I am employed by a lens manufacturer- therefore, it is up to the listener to decide whether my opinions are still objective. I believe they are, but then again one is usually not the best judge of the objectivity of one's own opinions...

**EyeManFla** · 03-08-2004, 03:21 PM

Not that you need the Eyeman to defend you, but...........

Though my number one lens is the Natural, I do find the Varilux Panamic to be superior to all other lenses that I have fit.

Though I have been watching Optiboard for years and been a contributor for the last four, I have yet seen anything that would make me doubt Pete's objectivity..........unless,of course, you take into account his choice of Alma Mater....:bbg:

**mrba** · 03-08-2004, 04:12 PM

I'll let the expirienced opticians decide whether or not to fit their flat tops with less precision! A good PAL should have wide zones in all meridians with little or no variation to the periphery. That said if your millimeter isn't perfect it shouldn't effect your PAL, and if it does, the so called advance desighn isn't so advanced, the wide zones aren't so wide, and the greatness of the lens isn't so great.

As far as varilux marketshare... don't believe everyhing you are told. I have friends that own labs that have seen their Varilux decrease 20-30% while their overall business increased. Unfortunately this doesn't represent the whole market since Essilor is buying the market! Who knows what the real numbers are...

I understand why Pete wouldn't want to divulge other desighns which he thinks are good, granted he works for the french Gorilla... But it does leave some doubt in my mind if Panamic and Comfort can't hold their own against the others. It stands to reason that with a zillion lenses out there, there are more than 5 good ones.

What really is sad is that there are those on this forum that believe that one lens is the best. This is a result of the big company's marketing "our lens is all you need" In fact there are many desighns for the simple reason that there are many situations where a different less used desighn is optimal for that situation.

How often in life does one size fit all?

:finger:
I really like this smiley!