On the subject of warranties

[chip anderson]

How many of us have sold products that have very good warranties (lenses or frames) and then learn the product is junk. If you sell a child a frame that breaks every few weeks they are not going to come back to you with their next Rx no matter how many times you replace it free! If you sell a coating that breaks down every eleven months and "but you give them a new one free because it's within warranty", the product doesn't live up to the warranty.

If a product doesn't have a warranty at all but holds up an doesn't break, it's a good product.

Anyone else with thoughts on this?

[Peter Z]

I would agree. I have owned 4 Acura's legends because I have never had to take the car back to the dealer for any reason. That is why I continue to purchase that car. However, to have a great product with a great warranty is the best of both worlds. The warranty in this case is an expression of the confidence the manufacturer has in its products. Returns are expensive. No consumer want to take things back.

I once purchased a expensive Sony TV and when I asked about the warranty they told be 90 days!!!. That gave me a conflicting message. For years I had heard that Sony built the best TV's. If it was so good why just a 90 day warranty???? I guess so that they could sell me the extended warranty. No thanks.

Offer the best quality products and back it with the best warranty you can give. This is the way to provide true value to the purchaser of your products.

[OpticaZ]

There are one or two of the top suppliers in our industry that stress the quality of their product and have the warrantee to back it up. The two that come to mind first are "M" who make the twist and bend product and "S" who make the quality spring hinge product. Both companies stress to the optical retailer how they will backup the product since they, as a percentage of sales, get so little back defective. As a matter of fact, I am sure they take back product from their good customers who claim the product is defective even when it is obvious that the customer has abused the product just because their return rates for damaged goods are so low. I once overheard a dispenser in North Carolina tell a mother who was buying new frames for her son, "You can pay me now or you can pay me later. If you buy the less expensive frame that lacks the quality features of the more expensive one, you'll be back to buy another when your son breaks it. Buy the better frame today and you will save yourself the lost time and your son will not have to be without his glasses for a time. Not only will I back it up, so does the manufacturer."

[Joann Raytar]

I was talking to a co-worker about this same issue. We were talking about how certain lines today aren't what they used to be. There are some frames, "L" and "R-B," that you used to be able to drive over with a truck and they would live not anymore. I told him I have seen some "s" and "C" frames six or eight years old that look like they were just purchased six months ago. His comment, "Why would you want a frame to last more than a year or maybe two?" My response, "If one of your customers is hit in the face by a ball or an airbag you will find out." In the last two months we have had three customers who had airbags deploy on them in car accidents. In all three cases the frames snapped, in one case one of the lenses cracked. None of those three people want to buy "just a cheap frame" again; of course it isn't just cheap frames that won't hold up.

[PAkev]

I concur with the posts I've read so far. A warranty itself is meaningless. Afterall, look at the mess that Diamonex (now defunct) left us with after creating all their product and warranty hype.

Things go so much easier when you deal with folks who are intelligent to realize the product you provide will far outlast the budget place up the road. By selling substandard quality frames, folks always forget how little they paid for the eyewear while also holding you accountable for repairs and replacement. Worse yet is when these folks come busting through the doors yelling about your "Cheap" frames while there are others in your dispensary making an investment in quality eyewear.

Quality frame products can be very profitable when sold confidently which also builds goodwill and loyalty of a client base which is much more reasonable to work with than the folks just looking for the "Best Deal"

Even though substandard frames have specified warranties, it could mean much greater cost to a retailer in the long run when you consider the time and expense involved with servicing frequency on those frames.

My two pennies
Kevin

[peyes]

What about ironclad scratch warranties? As we all know "scratch resistant" does not mean scratch proof. When you offer a 12 month or even 24 month warranty against scratching are you really "warranting" the lens against scratching or are you "playing the odds"? An LC exec once told me that they play the odds...Sell the coating, guarantee it knowing that a small percentage will be replaced regardless. Even though most people will scratch the lenses before the warranty is out...most will not take the time to have the lenses replaced. What do you think?

[EyeManFla]

When it comes to scratchguard, we have one company based in Florida that sells "scratch warranty", which is closer to the truth. Since most of the better lenses come with some sort of coating on them, selling scratchguard is almost deceptive.
As far as frames are concerned, I have always felt that selling a parent a frame with a two year warranty is kind of a joke since the kid is going to grow out of the frame in 6 months anyway.

[pedseye]

So let's share our experience's with products. It's nice to hear about the Acura Legend, that is a Honda basically isn't it? Because I have had several that I have had great success with. But the point is, can we share what vendor's have given us the best service and best product. What frames come back from customer's broken or screws falling out, etc. What lenses seem to be more durable. I know alot is based on how the customer TREATS the product, but bottom line is they don't want to hear that, they just want it to last a year or two with minimal problems. You ever have a farmer joe come in with the ugliest. bulkiest frames full of gunk who says, I've never had a screw fall out, these frames have held up very well. And you say to yourself, if we could find out the compounds of sweat & grime, we could put lock tite out of business and have no complaints. Just joking. Hee, Hee.

[Lucy0483]

Can anybody give me basic example of a scratch resistant coating and frame warranty?

[chip anderson]

Scratch Resistant Warranty: 1 year one time replacement of lenses if they become scratched. Everywhere except chains usually included with cost of SRC coating. Chains have contracts and charge for Warranty separately.

Frame Warranty: Usually whatever the manufacturer provides which may be:
1) Warranty against defects (welds, etc) for 1 to 3 years depending on the quality of frame and quality of manufacturer.
2) Warranty against defects of any type breakage 1-3 years for anything except deliberate abuse.
3) Warranty agains any frame problem against any thing including finish, paint, etc. 1-3 years or in a few cases life of frame. A few children's frames (oshkosh, I think ) warrantied for life, partially on the idea that patient will out grow frame (Which it's not warrantied against) and a few very high quality, expensive frames.
4) No warranty (discontinued frames sold for next to nothing, very cheap close outs, and a few scrouge type dispensary owners) a few of the latter don't offer warranty, make patient pay for replacement and then turn frame back to manufacturer for replacement providing free inventory.

Chip

[Pete Hanlin]

I concur with the posts I've read so far. A warranty itself is meaningless. Afterall, look at the mess that Diamonex (now defunct) left us with after creating all their product and warranty hype.
Wow, someone else who has heard of/worked with Diamonex. That product was a dog from the word go! I managed a lab that beta tested the product, and I made a visit to the coating facility when they were starting up... Diamonex, a shining example of an interesting concept gone amuck!

I'm not sure why we've been using initials in place of frame companies' names, but the best frame company- warranty wise- that I've ever dealt with is Marchon. I've sent back frames that were clearly damaged by wearer-induced neglect and they've always replaced the frame.

The same thing happens with scratch warranties. You should see some of the garbage that comes back as "defective returns!" Nevertheless, some (most) lens manufacturers still have a warranty attached to their scratch coatings. Believe it or not, we have a process that simulates different periods of consumer wear and tear (and amazingly it provides pretty accurate projections of what normal wear and tear will produce on a coated surface).

In the end, however, I imagine lenses are returned in much the same way that I returned frames. A consumer runs their lenses across concrete and gouges the lenses, they are returned to the manufacturer under the scratch warranty, and- depending on the manufacturer- the lenses are more often than not credited to the ECP.

IMH (and personal) O, there are two policies in the ophthalmic industry that need to be addressed sometime in the future... First, frame manufacturers should refuse to take back "overstock" or "dated" frames (every other retail industry works on a "you bought it, its yours" policy, why not ours), and scratch warranties need to fade away. Just my opinion, however.

[Dannette]

Chip,

From a consumers point of view, you are absolutely right. You may remember my previous posts about the AR coming off my lenses within 3 months. After the lens was recoated and put back in my glasses it started to come off in the same place. When I returned to the shop the lab made new lenses with a diferent AR coating - I didn't ask what kind. The inconvenience from the 1st time when they wanted to recoat the original lens made me wonder about the shop and the lab they used. When I returned with the same problem for the second time the woman behind the counter said in a very hateful voice "I guess we'll just replace these lenses forever". Her attitude more than anything will keep me from that place. Needless to say when I returned to get the new lenses someone else waited on me.

Dannette

[LENNY]

Pete you said:with is Marchon. I've sent back frames that were clearly damaged by wearer-induced neglect and they've always replaced the frame.

Not anymore
They became verrry strict on their returns!
You can only return the frame within 6 month of the purchase with an original invoice and within 1 year with a sales rep autorisation.
After one year you can stick this frame up..........
They dont care!
So if i you purchased the frame and sold it in 3 month and gave patient one year waranty you cant return the frame to marchone!

[Jim G]

I'm not sure there is any one answer. I guess if I go to K-Mart, I really don't expect much. I'd better have a receipt; I'd better be within a couple weeks of purchase; manufacturers wannanties will prevail. It was cheap.

However, if I go to a Nordstroms, well, I expect them to take just about anything back within a reasonable period of time. I paid a permium and I expect premium service. (Remember the ol' tire story?)

The same will prevail in our industry. I was with a wholesale lab that warranteed everything. You'd be amazed at the frames and lenses we accepted but, our credo was that we would stand behind our customers to do whatever necessary to make THEIR customers happy. At first glance, the pricing was "premium" but, with the support, the pricing was probably middle of the road.
We simply calculated the cost of warranteed products and added it to the price.

Sure there are abusers and one has to deal with them individually. I've called customers and asked if they have ever fired a patient 'cuz this might be the time or, possibly they should consider another lab. These were, fortunately, rare.

Overall, recommend products you are comfortable with. AR has gone thru a lot of issues over the years but, I believe, it is now there. Yes, there will be occasional problems but, these can usually be identified (UV dyes, certain manufacturer hard coats, "naked" lenses, etc.). If you have someone that enjoys the benefits of AR coatings but abuses the lenses, try putting it on glass (I know, a heretical thot but, I'm wearing some now...with an AR coat...and with virtually no scratches after almost 3 years).

Scratch resistant coatings DO work; they are SIGNIFICANTLY better than naked lenses however, they are not scratch proof. Even with kids or industiral use, a SRC will prolong the usefullness of the lenses. This simply needs to be communicated to the patient.

Bottom line: it's all about communications and expectations. It's also an area where the independent can really differentiate themselves from the K-Marts of the optical world.