Frame Mailing Fees

[Robert Wagner]

When "we" buy frames from the manufacturer's rep sample cases, the rep then orders our purchase. We then pay for the frames and the postage that were sent to our office. The next time the rep comes to the office and "we" decide to send back a few that had not sold "we" then package up the returns and pay for the return postage for credit. This is very understandable since "we" make the decisions on what style color and size etc to stock in our office.

However, if you and your rep have a frame board management agreement, why do "we" pay for the shipping back to the manufacture when the rep pulls what he or she decides to replace what the rep thought should have sold in your office to begin with? :o

When I think about the time and labor goes into returning frame (s) finding the proper case, frame in the plastic sleeve, boxing up all the frames and cases, then take to the post office and wait in line to have the box insured etc...

Now, I'm not asking the rep to pay for the shipping but I think that the manufacture should at the very least supply a call tag to return the items that the rep (not us) wants to return.

Am I the only one that feels this way if you are on a frame board management?:hammer:

Robert;)

[PAkev]

Robert,

I am in agreement with you but many of the big multi line companies dont see it our way because when there were not as many HMO's and all the other vision benefit plans, the industry recognized relatively good profitability. As long as things were looking good the retailers heeded advice of their frame reps and as the saying goes "If it aint broke, it don't need fixin" However as the tide has changed, folks found themselves waking up one morning and realizing frames on the boards in many offices have not necessarily become the most profitable option for the retiler but have become most profitable for the frame companies and their reps.

IF ANYTHING, they should be paying us for for the real estate space committed to merchandise their product. For instance, If I want to put an add in the local newspaper to toot our horn or offer a promotional sale, the newspaper doesn't give me the space for free or offer to try an add in their paper for six months to see if it works for us.

As far as cost, think about it this way:

If a frame cost you $100.00 you already have made your investment but then become responsible for unpackaging the frame putting it in inventory, merchandising, and loss prevention.
After 6 months the rep writes it up to go back so you then become responsible for taking it out of inventory, packaging it up with a case of course, pay for shipping, then pay for shipping for a replacement frame, unpackage the new frame, put it in inventory, and merchandise it with anticipation it will move better than the first frame. You can easily see that your $100 frame may easily end up costing you $120 or more after all is taken into consideration.

I usually put slow moving frames in my discount section and make sure they don't come back in my doors because it just doesn't pay to go through the expense and bother of replacing slow moving inventory that you paid a premium price for. I also request of reps that if I do send frames back, they then send me one or two frames at no charge to cover my troubles and expenses.

Kevin

[Chris Ryser]

When I read comments like these I am so happy to have quit the frame distribution business years ago.

During the 60s , 70s, and ito the 80s we used to sell frames to opticians and optometrists.

They bought and paid for frames, and these items belonged to them.

Our customers had 30 days to return frames for credit or exchange.

The come backs were at an average of 7% in the late 60s to mid 70s, and the went up to 21% in the late 70s.

I hear once in a while that in some instances frame returns today can go a high as 60%[/B} and higher.

All over the world in commerce the suppliers charge for transportation cost and in many countries also for packaging.

The transportation of an item if bought by a customers in New York, from a new NY distributor is less for the distance of one block away than having to send it to Los Angeles.
[If there is no transportation cost, a standard average fee is included in the selling price of an item and the customer at the closest distance for the distributor pays a higher price.

The market is flooded with frames, competition is fierce and everybody in distribution is bending every way the customer wants them to, do just to make some sales.

Originally an optician purchased frames and lenses. He had to SELL frames to get rid of them, then had to cut and grind the lenses, and there used to be breakage and re-dos. You also burnt a frame once in while heating it in the old days on the bunsen burner instead of the modern frame heater.
The frames that did not sell where reduced in price and then sold at a special lower price

There was no question of returning a model because it did not sell, you had to make the choice when the sales-rep dropped in. Your choice was your gain, or your loss, like it happens in business in all other fields.

This justified the profitable markup that has been applied in the optical retail business.

Today we have the consignments deals, frame display deals, never have to pay deals until sold and so forth.

Actually it looks like the frame supplier is taking all the chances of financing a model he does not even know if it will sell when he orders some stock from the manufacturer

Today opticians and optometrists are paying a lot more for frames, not knowing that all these return policies have been calculated into the distributors selling prices.

We could just about bet on the fact that some frame suppliers would drop their selling prices very heavily if there would be a I sell, you buy policy with returns and credits for warranty purposes only.

[fletch]

I agree chris

This is one the few retail products that you can return if you don't sell them.

Most chains get a big discount because they agree not to return anything other than breakage!

All frame venders need to make a profit! so if they have to pay for board space or postage they will just raise your prices!

Save yourself some time and headache and just raise your prices! You have a right to profit too.

[PAkev]

Chris and Fletch,


I respectfully understand your positions but if I am interpreting your comments correctly you are saying the frame mfgs are now building the ancillary costs of returns into the product. However, the issue is that we are still paying to return those frames and still paying shipping for replacement frames so how does this fit into the equation?

What it seems to boil down to is the fact that the retailer knows their client base and what frames work best. Problems pertaining to the issue come when a company or rep become greedy and don't want to loose board space to a competitor and therefore make retailers believe they are jumping through hoops for you by returning stale product and sometimes even for more stale product. Either a frame company does or does not have product that will work for you.

A smart optician/business person, which you guys certainly appear to be, see through all the smoke and mirrors. However many retailers / frame purchasers relate to their reps as friends rather than having a mutual business relationship and when frame reps start running the show someone isn't doing their job.

Sorry for making this post feel you just bit into a lemon but I recently had some experiences which have influenced my attitude toward a few frame companies.

Kevin
until the frame companies start paying my lease, salary, advertising, etc. I won't let frame reps determine my product mix.

[Chris Ryser]

Sorry for making this post feel you just bit into a lemon but I recently had some experiences which have influenced my attitude toward a few frame companies. .........................

...until the frame companies start paying my lease, salary, advertising, etc. I won't let frame reps determine my product mix.

PAkev,

I have stated on other threads that just about 100% of all brand name frames are now made in the orient.

Have the majority of frames come down in price ? Definitely not. When I look in the Frame Price Book I can't believe the distributor prices charged to the retail trade compared with 20 years ago.

Today frames including the big brand name ones, are mostly better made and cost a fraction of what they cost 20 years ago at the point of manufacturing.

The greed of of the optical retail trade of not investing their own money into their own product stock has brought this on.

I bet again that the optical retailer willing to invest his money in his frame stock instead of the stock market could work out some huge discounts with some major or smaller frame companies by straight out purchasing instead of consignment deals which are fully financed by the supplier who charges ALL of it in hidden cost.

With this heavily discounted stock the retailer then could sell at the same price as his consignment carrying competitor and make a bundle of money of his own stock or could sell cheaper to to beat the competition and gain more customers.

You are paying every cent for the, what you think, favours given to you by frame companies

Before the consignment agreements became fashion a frame company would be profitable with a gross markup of 40%-45% which paid for the reps commissions and the operation of the company and leave some over, to show an acceptable year end profit.

In order to stay in business and show a profit you can now figure it out yourself how much more a frame company needs to function in order to to pay to carry your inventory plus the one of you friends and competitors, pay their reps, employees and pay $ 4000.00 per full page advertissement in the trade magazines.

It is the retailers that have changed the system and are now paying a lot more than they actually should. The interest rate the optical business is paying does not match Mr Greenspan's ideas.

Your optical laboratory very often a good discount if you pay fast and you do it while in the frame part of your business you accept consignments at an interest rate you can figure out yourself.

[varmint]

[b][i]

You are paying every cent for the, what you think, favours given to you by frame companies

Or the favors given to your employee's behind your back who think they deserve them when offered by the rep.

I'd be happy to deal directly with the companies for a discount and bypass the reps, with the understanding I'd have returns only for warranty replacement & no credits.

I can view any new product lines I like twice a year at least at trade shows, in trade magazines, by watching my competition, and looking at what people are wearing.

Pardon me Jeff but,

Jim, I don't need any sales rep, Mcclafferty

[Texas Ranger]

Like Chris said, there are "normal business practices" in all businesses, example, pull up Amazon.com, and find a good book, like Rick Warren's "A Purpose Driven Life" (my current read); they sell the book for like $11.80, and they give you three choices for the cost of how they ship it to you, like, 7 days, 2 days, or next day. and the cost goes up accordingly. but there isn't a "Amazon" pays the shipping! I would like to say that Chris is right about us "buying" the frames; and we were just thrilled if we could get a frame mafg'r to open us an account so we would have frames to sell, which is what we would like to do, especially with rx lenses in them! there weren't so many vendors back then, so they were a more "independent" thinking group, they didn't particularly "need" a little 2-man shop, in the big scheme of things. so, I suppose I see it as somewhat of a priviledge to be able to bring good quality frame to our clients, and the more variety the better. Who raised frame prices so high? Optical retailers. came in marked up product twice as much as we did, and then had 1/2 price sales, and bogos etc, but they set the mark-up, so I think it had a trickle down affect, all the way to the mfgr....

[PAkev]

This isn't a plot against the Anti-Christ, Saddam Hussein, or Osama Bin Laden. It seems that we all share the same sentiments of liberal credit policies.

However, the key issue to Roberts initial post is when manufacturer reps accept the responsibility of board management but fail to recognize the responsibility of inventory shipping costs.

This is like telling Mrs Jones "Your Progressive Lenses will cost $175 but if I mess up and have to remake them they will only cost $200.
This won't fly very well with Mrs. Jones and it doesn't fly well when we have pay to send frames back.

Kevin

[Texas Ranger]

Kevin, I suppose that it is hard to see the point, because I would never, ever let a rep do "frame board management" to begin with. I do not believe that there is any frame rep that knows our clientele., and we buy sort of by committee, the whole staff has decisive input, so that we have what we like in each line. that doesn't mean that we don't have some styles that nobody likes, we have them, and they have a niche...but no, no board management, so the postage on board manged frames is a non-issue. but, i'm not sure there's a difference. but if you don't like it, cease doing the board management..

[Robert Wagner]

You summed it up perfectly!
I wonder why we have not heard from any reps yet regarding this subject.


Robert
;)

[Chris Ryser]

Robert Wagner said:
You summed it up perfectly!
I wonder why we have not heard from any reps yet regarding this subject.
Robert
;)

Robert you are so right.

When the lens companies get critizised there is somebody coming in to defend their points.

How come the frame companies or their reps are standing by..............? .......... and without comments?

[harry888]

What irritates me about returns is sending back those blasted cases, they are just so heavy and really inflate postage.

I wish companies would give the option of a "no-case" order.

Harry

[paw]

Harry888,

Yes, yes, yes, I totally agree!!!!!!

I like getting cases with new stock orders. What I don't like is a case with a frame ordered under warranty. They send a case at no charge, but if you don't send the case back with the broken frame, you get credit for the frame minus a case charge, which is in the neighborhood of $5 - $6. How stupid is that!!! I always specifically ask them to NOT send a case when I order a frame under warranty, but they send it anyway. One customer service person said a case always goes out with the frame, there's no way to change that.

I think frame companies do that on purpose to generate extra revenue. I'm sure there are many places that forget to send a case back or don't realize they get dinged on the credit if they don't return the case.

[Chris Ryser]

Harry888,
Paw,

In business there is nothing for free. There never has been or there never will be a freebe.

Every freebe has been calculated into the selling price, even under warranty frame replacements.

Freebes are a basic way of soliciting a sale for a company.

If you buy from a no frill company you will get what you pay for. More expensive for better quality less for lesser quality. The distributor makes a fair profit and so do you.

[paw]

It's just silly to have to pay postage for a case to go back and forth.

[Johns]

I have a "no case unless specified" memo on all my accounts. Marchon is the only company that will abide by it, but w/ that memo, I don't return the cases to any company that still happens to send them w/ any returns, and they don't ding me for them. The major problem is that you get 4 lbs of cases w/ 10oz of frames. It drives shipping through the roof!

[harry888]

chris,

Sorry if it seemed by my post that I wanted to keep the cases, I don't expect something for nothing. Don't like customers who are that way, so I try not to do it to the frame companies.

I just wish we could do a frame exchange without mailing the same cases back and forth.

The postage costs have gotten way out of hand, and I attribute much of it to the weight of the cases.

And it's not like most companies ship the frames in the cases for protection. I usually end up with two boxes inside my shipped box, a box of frames and a box of cases.

harry

[jwolf]

If you pirchased a product on the internet or mail order and you return it you pay postage as long as it is not defective. What is the difference. The manufactures can't pay for everything.

[rep]

Hi Everyone:

This started out as "Frame Mailing Fees" but has moved into a lot of different areas.

As a frame rep that was formally a multil store independent retail owner I have had my eyes opened since joining Lux 4 years ago.

To begin with frame mailing fees will continue. Frame companies are battling return rates that have been increasing every year. Some accounts have rates approaching 40 to 50 %. In short you are asking companies to return one of three or one of two frames sold in your offices and pay for the postage too! Not to mention from the reps point of view that every frame returned is comissions lost on that frame and return fees charged against the rep for each item returned.

Part of the problem is you guys and gals as buyers. Even though everyone who actually analyses their boards knows that 80% of your sales comes from 20% of your inventory, the first word out of most buyers mouths is "just show me what's new". (This is mainly because they don't want to spend the time looking at the complete line, even though they get a better overview that way) The manufacturers have responded by making sure you have new product to choose from. The result is that slower movers have to be recalled from the reps bags and move to the phased out merchandise category and eventually the discontinued category. When they are being phased out we have to, if we are doing our jobs, send them back in place of that new product you think you have to have.

As a result most companies realize that there is going to be around a 15 - 20% return rate built in.

Most companies have incentive programs that pay rebates if you reach growth targets and keep your return rages below 20%. Check with your reps.

I am not going to get into the details of frame board management but just to say the the notion that any buyer who thinks he has better knowledge of what the public is purchasing from his little cubby hole of a dispensary in comparison to every opt, optom, ophth, chain, and warehouse club in the same zip code, like his rep does, is living in a dream world of his or her own creation.

The larger, more profitable, better managed operations, all operate using frame board management with specific guidelines as directed by the accounts. It is not turning over your boards to your reps. It does lower you frame returns, makes sure your boards are stocked with your best movers, eliminates discountinued products from sitting on your boards and keeps new fashion models and trends in your office, not to mention the time saved by the buyers.

Truly retail operations dont have the time to see one rep at a time and they have learned that on their narrower margins they have to have better profit per square foot and that seat of the pants choosing what Susie or Jim's personal preferences happen to be at any one particular time, usually ends up costing them money.

It is absolutely critical that you evaluate the board spaces at least twice yearly to see who is producing and who is not, AND ADJUST BOARD SPACE ACCORDINGLY!!!!!!!!

It is also critical that you limit the number of vendors in order to make sure your maxamizing your discount, rebates and incentives. Not to mention reducing the number of checks you write every month

Awaiting for what I am sure will be a lot of disagreements.

Rep

[Chris Ryser]

Awaiting for what I am sure will be a lot of disagreements

Glad to hear from a rep who say's what is really the case. I have always been of the opinion that in any commercial venture the investment should be by the business owners.

The optical trade has been spoiled by an overproduction of frames and the fierce competition by frame companies has given in to the consigment agreements.

Actually the frmaes are on loan to the trade and do not belong to the stores as they can be returned just about at any time. This actually makes an optician not a frame seller, it makes the customer the buyer of whatever he feels like it.

Anybody remember the days when there were no displays and frame boards? We used to SELL the perfect frame for the patient and got properly trained to do that.

I wonder if ever any system like that is coming back into style. In the meantime the frame companies have to go along with a system that should never have started.

[paw]

Rep,

Two years ago, I became in charge of the frame board, and it took me 2 years to slowly come to figure out for myself what you just said in 2 minutes in your post. Wish I read your post 2 years ago!

I recently realized 2 things, and your post confirmed both: That we should reduce the number of vendors we have to take advantage of volume discounts and rebates, not to mention having fewer reps to deal with. And we should adjust the board space periodically depending on performance.

I have to admit I am afraid of hurting my reps' feelings! I'm a softy, aren't I?! Not that it would keep me from doing what I have to do.

[paw]

BTW, I am a much more hands-on with frame board management than my predecessor. She would let the rep take an inventory, let the rep decide what to return, and then they would sit down an go over frames to purchase. When I took over, I found that the reps tend to let frames stay on the board too long. I found frames that had been there a year! Now I personally take inventory before the rep comes and pull what I what I want returned.

I think offices should always be hands-on to make sure the board is managed to the utmost in their own favor.

[mitchellvision]

Chris Ryser said:
When I read comments like these I am so happy to have quit the frame distribution business years ago.

During the 60s , 70s, and ito the 80s we used to sell frames to opticians and optometrists.

They bought and paid for frames, and these items belonged to them.

Our customers had 30 days to return frames for credit or exchange.

The come backs were at an average of 7% in the late 60s to mid 70s, and the went up to 21% in the late 70s.

I hear once in a while that in some instances frame returns today can go a high as 60%[/B} and higher.

All over the world in commerce the suppliers charge for transportation cost and in many countries also for packaging.

The transportation of an item if bought by a customers in New York, from a new NY distributor is less for the distance of one block away than having to send it to Los Angeles.
[If there is no transportation cost, a standard average fee is included in the selling price of an item and the customer at the closest distance for the distributor pays a higher price.

The market is flooded with frames, competition is fierce and everybody in distribution is bending every way the customer wants them to, do just to make some sales.

Originally an optician purchased frames and lenses. He had to SELL frames to get rid of them, then had to cut and grind the lenses, and there used to be breakage and re-dos. You also burnt a frame once in while heating it in the old days on the bunsen burner instead of the modern frame heater.
The frames that did not sell where reduced in price and then sold at a special lower price

There was no question of returning a model because it did not sell, you had to make the choice when the sales-rep dropped in. Your choice was your gain, or your loss, like it happens in business in all other fields.

This justified the profitable markup that has been applied in the optical retail business.

Today we have the consignments deals, frame display deals, never have to pay deals until sold and so forth.

Actually it looks like the frame supplier is taking all the chances of financing a model he does not even know if it will sell when he orders some stock from the manufacturer

Today opticians and optometrists are paying a lot more for frames, not knowing that all these return policies have been calculated into the distributors selling prices.

We could just about bet on the fact that some frame suppliers would drop their selling prices very heavily if there would be a I sell, you buy policy with returns and credits for warranty purposes only.

AMEN!!!

[mitchellvision]

Chris Ryser said:
Sorry for making this post feel you just bit into a lemon but I recently had some experiences which have influenced my attitude toward a few frame companies. .........................

...until the frame companies start paying my lease, salary, advertising, etc. I won't let frame reps determine my product mix.

PAkev,

I have stated on other threads that just about 100% of all brand name frames are now made in the orient.

Have the majority of frames come down in price ? Definitely not. When I look in the Frame Price Book I can't believe the distributor prices charged to the retail trade compared with 20 years ago.

Today frames including the big brand name ones, are mostly better made and cost a fraction of what they cost 20 years ago at the point of manufacturing.

The greed of of the optical retail trade of not investing their own money into their own product stock has brought this on.

I bet again that the optical retailer willing to invest his money in his frame stock instead of the stock market could work out some huge discounts with some major or smaller frame companies by straight out purchasing instead of consignment deals which are fully financed by the supplier who charges ALL of it in hidden cost.

With this heavily discounted stock the retailer then could sell at the same price as his consignment carrying competitor and make a bundle of money of his own stock or could sell cheaper to to beat the competition and gain more customers.

You are paying every cent for the, what you think, favours given to you by frame companies

Before the consignment agreements became fashion a frame company would be profitable with a gross markup of 40%-45% which paid for the reps commissions and the operation of the company and leave some over, to show an acceptable year end profit.

In order to stay in business and show a profit you can now figure it out yourself how much more a frame company needs to function in order to to pay to carry your inventory plus the one of you friends and competitors, pay their reps, employees and pay $ 4000.00 per full page advertissement in the trade magazines.

It is the retailers that have changed the system and are now paying a lot more than they actually should. The interest rate the optical business is paying does not match Mr Greenspan's ideas.

Your optical laboratory very often a good discount if you pay fast and you do it while in the frame part of your business you accept consignments at an interest rate you can figure out yourself.

Do the manufacturers get those brand names for free. I am sure that Nike doesn't pay Michael Jordan a dime to use his name.