View Poll Results: If WMDs are never found in Iraq...

Voters
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  • ...the mission failed- WMDs were the only legitimate reason to invade

    8 19.05%
  • ...the mission was successful, but we shouldn't have invaded

    3 7.14%
  • ...the mission was a success- the weapons were there, they were just moved

    12 28.57%
  • ...the mission was a success- the main thing was to get rid of Saddam- WMDs are irrelevent

    19 45.24%
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Thread: What if WMDs are never found?

  1. #1
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    What if WMDs are never found?

    Well, what if it turns out that Saddam didn't have WMDs in Iraq (or in any case, we never manage to find them)?

  2. #2
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Does it make any diffrence now....
    What they going to do if they find there were no WMD's say sorry and here you go have your country back.....
    Lets face it they cant even find him to tell him anyway..So if they cant find the man how they going to find his WMD's.
    I think not...
    Truth be known they wanted Sadam out and were not bothered about the truth or public opinion on the matter..

  3. #3
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Good topic Pete!

    Whether or not Bush is successful in rewriting history, the fact is that his major justification for invading Iraq was WMD and the 'threat' that Iraq posed to America. Without proof of these, his original rationale for the war was faulty and we as American citizens have a right to know what went wrong with the pre-war intelligence.

    This is not to say that I'm not happy Saddam is out of power or that the war resulted in fewer Allied casualties then many had feared. Clearly he was an evil man doing evil things to his own people. While it's too early to say what will happen to Iraq, it's likely they will be much better off with him gone - at least in the near to mid-term. (This all could change if Islamic Fundamentalists take power.)

    However if the 'new' justification for the war is that Saddam was a bad guy and we had a duty to remove him from power, then what about all the other 'bad' regimes in the world? Are we now saying that it is American foreign policy to remove any regimes we feel are evil - Cuba, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Mirammar? If not, then what was our justification in Iraq?

    I sincerely hope that Bush does find convincing proof of WMDs. Without this, I believe the war will have done significant damage to U.S. credibility and respect throughout the world. And while the war may be viewed as a 'success' in the short-term, in the long-term, this success is far from certain.


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  4. #4
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    If I heard correctly, the British Parliament has already begun its investigation of the intelligence information that justified PM Blair's commitment of troops.

    I was mildly amused that when both House and Senate Democrats called for a similar investigation, the Republican majority was offended, saying that the word "investigation" has an inherently perjorative connotation.

    I would not be surprised to find that, once the dust has settled, Secretary Powell leaves the State Dept. to return to his America's Promise Foundation. It is my firm opinion that he was badly mis-lead about the threats posed by the Iraqi government.
    Last edited by Judy Canty; 06-18-2003 at 09:58 AM.

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Can't pretend to be as up to date on my info in this area as I should. What I have heard is that the in place CIA was not providing the admin with the intelligence they wanted to hear, so Rumfield brought in his own team (?) This Rumfield character is starting to get on my nerves--he seems to way overstep his bounds; since when is the Sec't of Defense a maker of foreign policy--sorta like going to a surgeon when you have a stomach ache, you know what his solution is going to be!! I gather that Blix is furious, claiming that the US intelligence was massaged to make him and his team look inept. I predict Blair will not survive this; Bush will wave the flag as long as he can. I agree that Powell will step down unless this is resolved in a manner that absolves the admin. And while I was not for the war, and not a Bush fan, it is still a early to make a clear judgment. What is most troubling is that whole Nigeria "intelligence" which has turned out to be completely discredited; the intelligence pros are leaking that this was so clearly fabricated that the admin was either asleep at the wheel or knowingly accepted it to bolster their case. Yikes!!!!!!!!

  6. #6
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Good lord!

    Judy,

    can you reference your sources and if Colin Powell was mislead then why wouldn't others have been mislead in the administration as well? Why only Colin Powell??? Hmmm. I wonder?

    cmh2023,

    This is going to get intresting I can already tell you that. You may want to brush up a whole lot for this. I'm pressed for time right now but I'll be back.

    Darris C.
    Last edited by Darris Chambless; 06-18-2003 at 01:12 PM.

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    BBC World News Today via National Public Radio...and who says others in the administration weren't mislead? It is, after all, my opinion which is as valuable as anyone else's.

  8. #8
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Well Judy...

    You only spoke of Colin Powell and not any other person and only pointed out that you thought he was mislead and didn't mention anyone else or where they would go after all was said and done or who else might step down after the dust settled. So it appears that your opinion is that only Colin Powell was mislead. No mention of any other so in answer to your question you did.

    Your opinion is as valuable as anyone elses just like mine, but I've not given an opinion yet, only asked some questions.

    Take care,

    Darris C.

  9. #9
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Judy Canty said:
    If I heard correctly, the British Parliament has already begun its investigation of the intelligence information that justified PM Blair's commitment of troops.
    Yep we have. The politicians are blaming the intelligence service for duff advice and the intelligence service are saying that the politicians either misinterpreted what they said or they didn't take any notice.. As we would say....The politicians just bloody lied to us....
    Just what is a WMD as to my mind it can be anything even a human can cause mass destruction..... (read Mr Bush & Blair)

    We understood the same as you that the americans had already started the lets get somebody trail.....
    As the buck always stops at the top both Bush and Blair should take the hint and take a hike....

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder chm2023's Avatar
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    Powell may well not have been the only one misled--in fact he almost certainly was not. He is the one however that publicly recanted on his initial view that the US should not threaten to go it alone, based (so he said) on intelligence reports; he also is the one that then took the admin's story to the UN, so he put a lot more at risk,and in a very public way, than others.

    Talk with y'all next week.

  11. #11
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    We'll start here...

    http://www.iiss.org/news-more.php?itemID=88

    A lot of reading but good information and add to these as well

    http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/bw/program.htm

    There's another link to a story regarding the "mobile labs" but I would have to go get the posts from another board written by a gentleman that actually works with fermenters in the same capacity and he like Daryl gave me a brain cramp and knows what he's talking about. Here's a tidbit though

    "THE FIRST STEP IN THE PRODUCTION OF CLOSTRIDIUM VAC- CINES. SUCH AS TET????, IS TO PRODUCE LARGE QUANTITIES OF THE TET???? TOXIN. TO ACCOMPLISH THIS, LARGE QUAN- TITIES OF CLOSTRIDIUM TETANI ARE GROWN IN FERMENTERS. AS CELLS DIE AND BURST, THE TET???? TOXIN IS RELEASED INTO THE MATERIAL IN WHICH THEY ARE GROWING. THE NEXT STEP IS TO PUT THE GROWTH MEDIUM-CONTAINING THE TOXIN-INTO ANOTHER CONTAINER TO WHICH FORMALDEHYDE IS ADDED. THE FORMALDEHYDE INACTIVATES THE TOXIN, MAKING IT NONTOXIC BUT STILL CAPABLE OF PRODUCING AN IMMUNE RESPONSE. (A TOXIN THAT IS INACTIVE BUT THAT CAN STILL PRODUCE AN IMMUNE RESPONSE IS CALLED A TOXOID OR AN ANATOXIN.) THE FORMALDEHYDE-TOXIN MIX- TURE IS STIRRED, AND, AT VARIOUS INTERVALS, SAMPLES ARE TAKEN OUT AND INJECTED INTO MICE. WHEN NO TOXIC OBSERVED IN THE MICE, THE TOXIN IS CONSID- INACTIVE AND READY FOR USE IN PRODUCING VACCINE."

    He finished with this:

    "In this case, simply omit the Formaldehyde for some nasty bugjuice."

    Here's a little more about these units:

    http://www.altieri.it/fermentors.htm

    It was also stated that if one were to produce hydrogen from water in these units it would also produce oxygen which is necessary for fermentation of biological agents. Also stated was the size of the units and the amount of hydrogen produced as well as the amount of hydrogen necessary for artillary balloons and the discrepencies in the amounts required.

    Now while these next links talk about a subject that has neither been proven nor disproven, I will not say they are legit but they are there for the reading and no retractions have been made to date so the jury is still out.

    http://discover.npr.org/features/fea...l?wfId=1223246
    http://www.acsa.net/bioterror/895392_asp.htm
    http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/news/040703_nw_iraq.html
    http://www.ondragonswing.com/journal...es/001026.html

    Then there are the reports of authorization for the Iraqi military to use chemical and biological weapons (which, since they didn't have any to begin with seems odd to authorize something like this don't you think) as well as the Scuds being shot down that were fired at our troops that Iraq also didn't have because they were banned.

    Then there's this stuff on Iraq's nuclear program:

    http://www.nci.org/i/iaea-38.htm
    http://www.iraqwatch.org/wmd/nuclear.html

    Kind of scary stuff from the standpoint of how advanced the Iraqis were with regard to this subject.

    There's a lot more but I'll let ya'll get caught up on all that first then we can get into some other areas regarding links between other countries for supplies, storage, activity in certain areas with destroyed facilities, even a link if I can find it again that talks about some documents awaiting declassification but that were classified due to sensitivity where sources were concerned. Also an inteview with a former Iraqi officer regarding Salmon Pak and the people therein and what they were trained for. It's good stuff.

    Talk to ya'll later,

    Darris C.

  12. #12
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Hmmm, interesting conversation...

    BTW, I voted that the weapons were moved- so, we should start knocking off other regimes in the area in a continued search (just kidding on the last part).

    Here's my prediction- we will eventually find where the WMDs are, but there will be those in each government that will cry "foul" and claim the weapons were planted there by the U.S.

    I simply don't believe the administration would have sent soldiers in if they didn't honestly have information that WMDs were there (then again, some people honestly don't believe that Bill had sexual relations with Monica- so I guess it really comes down to a matter of whom you trust).

    Hope we find the WMDs, the rest of the campaign went so well. Not finding them would be kind of like having the Bride and Groom split up after the reception party was a huge success!

  13. #13
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    If WMD's are not found:
    A) George Bush will be terribly embarrised.
    B) Tom Daschle will be very happy.
    C) Rush Limbaugh will be embarrised.
    D) G. Gordon Liddy will be embarrised.
    E) Dick Gebhart will be very happy.
    F) Heads will roll in the "intelligence" comumity.
    H) It will make little difference in the overall scheme of things in the world.

  14. #14
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    chip anderson said:
    If WMD's are not found:
    A) George Bush will be terribly embarrised.
    B) Tom Daschle will be very happy.
    C) Rush Limbaugh will be embarrised.
    D) G. Gordon Liddy will be embarrised.
    E) Dick Gebhart will be very happy.
    F) Heads will roll in the "intelligence" comumity.
    H) It will make little difference in the overall scheme of things in the world.
    I agree with all except 'H'. It will make a buig difference in the world if the primary justification for this invasion turned out to be wrong. I know it's a popular idea among some people that we shouldn't care what the rest of the world thinks about us, but I respectfully disagree. I think it matters a great deal.


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  15. #15
    Master OptiBoarder Jedi's Avatar
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    Weapons or no weapons, I know I sleep a little better, now that there is one less Dictator running a powderkeg of a country.
    "It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home."


  16. #16
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Pete is correct.

    "Here's my prediction- we will eventually find where the WMDs are, but there will be those in each government that will cry "foul" and claim the weapons were planted there by the U.S."

    Because these weapons didn't turn up immediately as the media decided they should have, just as the media predicted that the battle should take less than a week and then decided it was a quagmire when it ran over their time alotment, it will be as Pete predicts. But to what extent and severity will depend on political tides at the time and the magnitude of the find.

    "I agree with all except 'H'. It will make a buig difference in the world if the primary justification for this invasion turned out to be wrong. I know it's a popular idea among some people that we shouldn't care what the rest of the world thinks about us, but I respectfully disagree. I think it matters a great deal."

    I'm kind of in agreement with Steve on this. World view would change a great deal if the primary justification for the war turned out to be wrong (it wasn't) and diplomatic relations would break down to a dangerous level. Now I, personally, could care less what others think of me, but as a nation we need to care and it does matter to retain our allies and intrests abroad. Look at France, Germany, Belgium and Russia. When we find what we went for these four are going to be the poster children for what public opinion of them does to their country (although the severity of this will be less because of so much liberal ideology to suppress the disdain that runs rampant in this day and time)

    "...(then again, some people honestly don't believe that Bill had sexual relations with Monica- so I guess it really comes down to a matter of whom you trust)."

    Pete, those people would be a moot point. If they can't even believe it coming from the horses mouth then they need psychiatric help and a few rounds of electroshock therapy (full power even ;)

    Take care folks,

    Darris C.

  17. #17
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Steve Machol said:
    I I know it's a popular idea among some people that we shouldn't care what the rest of the world thinks about us, but I respectfully disagree. I think it matters a great deal.
    A lot of people dont care for the USA because of the way the trample over everyone else, but if these weapons were to be found then at least we (usa + uk) had just cause to invade iraq. If they are not found then in the future even more will join the anti america fan club.....
    Maybe they were shipped out back to where they first came from....France......
    As a aside to this we have one of Sadams cousins living not 5 miles from us, and had a major scare when it was rumored that 2 of sadams kids wanted political exile in our fair city with uncle.....Serfice to say they got told to B O G O F F

  18. #18
    Optical Curmudgeon EyeManFla's Avatar
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    Who knows, who cares! Next stop, North Korea!
    "Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde"

  19. #19
    Bad address email on file Darris Chambless's Avatar
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    Just out of curiosity...

    John,

    "A lot of people dont care for the USA because of the way the trample over everyone else,..."

    How many? And could you give us some insight as to who we've "trampled"?

    God love you John but you definitely seem to be one of the anti-American sort of fellows. Don't get me wrong, it just seems like throughout this whole ordeal you've been a bit on the "superior" side of things. I will apologize to you for all Americans and say that we are sorry that we've wronged you in a manner that has disrupted your life as well as your lifestyle. I hope that helps some but if not I'll start on the anti-British movement, which I'm honestly not on or anywhere close to but if it becomes necessity then so be it.

    Take care,

    Darris C

  20. #20
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Steve,
    I appreciate where you're coming from about the importance of world opinion. However, I don't really believe our actions in Iraq will matter all that much. It all boils down to a saying my brother is fond of- A friend in need is a friend indeed. Other nations are only going to like/dislike America to the extent that we have something to offer them.

    This is an attitude that isn't unique to any particular country- we're exactly the same way. Otherwise, how can you explain all the anti-French sentiments- heck, they gave more financial support to the War for Independence than did the colonists. Then there's the little gift the French gave us a 100 or so years ago (a statue- most folks have heard of it).

    Point being, we all have short memories. The Iraqi people will quickly forget our assistance- and that's normal. Likewise, the next time the French or someone need our help, they'll be our bosom friends again- and that's normal. Likewise for Americans- we'll kiss and make up with the rest of the world soon enough.

    History shows that- other than deep seated feuds that are religious and/or ethnic in nature (e.g. Muslims and Hebrews), disagreements run their course in relatively short order...

    Either way, if we don't find the weapons, I'm not looking forward to finding out where they are! Yep, I'm still sticking to the belief that Saddam did have 'em...

  21. #21
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Pete Hanlin said:
    Steve,
    I appreciate where you're coming from about the importance of world opinion. However, I don't really believe our actions in Iraq will matter all that much.
    I disagree. I think our actions and the world's reaction to them count for a lot. If it turns out we were not truthful or just plain wrong about the WMD in Iraq, this strikes at the very core of our credibility. And without credibility, we will find the world a decidedly more unfriendly place for Americans than it is now.

    But like Darris I agree that it's too early to draw this conclusuion just yet. As he pointed out the press is notorious for jumping the gun, as they did after the first week of the war. The evidence for WMD may still be found.


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  22. #22
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    While I did not feel threatened by the Irocis or the Iracis, and didn't feel from a stand point of the security of the U.S. the war was needed. I am not even sure that I care enough to liberate the oppressed around the world, the WMD's are not important.

    If Iroc presented at threat, it doesn't matter what weapons your enemy choses to use. Sucide bombers, airline hyjackers, or what whatever. An enemy is an enemy.

    To Quote Curtis LeMay: "Alsop, it doesn't matter to a footsoldier whether he is killed with a nuclear weapon or a rusty knife, he is still dead."

    There was a time when a U.S. citizen could walk in safety anywere on the earth knowing that the U.S. government protected his safety and the enemies of same feared our power and resolve. Check what happened when MEN like Teddy Rosevelt were in charge and ambasadors or embassys were threatened.

    No sane man would ever kick Dick Butkas in the shins, our government must be the same.. The life of a single must U.S. citizen must always be concidered as an attack on Florida. A one man sailboat with a U.S. flag should be as safe from attack as a carrier.

    If we cannot or will not protect our citizens with this much ardor, then we don't need a government or armed forces.

    Another Quote from Little Orphan Annie: "Amazing how much respect people have for a little flag, if they know it is backed by something swift and terrible.

    Chip:angry:

  23. #23
    Bad address email on file John R's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Just out of curiosity...

    Darris Chambless said:
    God love you John but you definitely seem to be one of the anti-American sort of fellows. Don't get me wrong, it just seems like throughout this whole ordeal you've been a bit on the "superior" side of things. I will apologize to you for all Americans and say that we are sorry that we've wronged you in a manner that has disrupted your life as well as your lifestyle. I hope that helps some but if not I'll start on the anti-British movement, which I'm honestly not on or anywhere close to but if it becomes necessity then so be it.
    Daris, I seem to have hit a nerve..
    I'm not Anti Yank just playing devils advocate. As we all know there are countries out there who do not like the americian way of doing things not only in the Muslims areas but also some of the european countries have started to turn (short memories they have). This is what i was aiming at..
    Yes i was anti this war for various reasons which do not matter now as the deed has been done. Though if we have been lied to by politicans (whats new) it would be nice to see them held out to dry on this one....Tonite we have Mr Blair being put to the test in a interview on TV about this matter, will look forward to reading how he squirmed his way out of the nasty questions.
    Like you i have a way of winding people up by what i say, just my sad british humor some would say captain....
    ;) ;)

  24. #24
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    ...without credibility, we will find the world a decidedly more unfriendly place for Americans than it is now.
    I agree that credibility is important. My point is that no one gives us any credibility anyway, so it is not there to lose.

    We live in a suspicious world. Everyone is out to protect their own, and no one trusts anyone. We could have found WMDs laying all over the place on the first day and there would have been countries stating they were planted. Or, they would have simply said that WMDs or not, we had no business going in anyway.

    Going into Iraq was the right thing to do. Now we should get the heck out and let them run their own country.

  25. #25
    Master OptiBoarder BobV's Avatar
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    Pete:

    I agree with you on us getting out completely, and I'll also add that I believe they should pay for their own rebuilding with their own oil money. If they want us out that bad, let them figure out how to bring their OWN country up to snuff.

    Bob V.

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