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Thread: I hate corporate optical

  1. #1
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    I hate corporate optical

    Corporations are killing the industry. Essilor and Hoya have bought up most of the quality labs in the country. Walmart and Costco destroy the profits on high end products. I hate seeing what is happening to the business. The truth is that it won't be long until corporate America starts buying out all of the dispensaries in the country. How could we let this happen? Why is it happening? Why can't it be stopped?

    I know I can't be alone in feeling like this. I don't want to see the business change even further for the worse.

    Discuss...

  2. #2
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    It's called capitalism or the free enterprise system. It creates wealth and higher standards of living. Customers decide if and where they want to buy products; companies don't force people to buy or where to buy.

    The business decisions we each make either gains or loses customers. The better decisions win. The game at the micro level is win-lose. At the macro level it is closer to win-win. Larger firms are able to develop innovative products and mass advertise in ways that stimulates total demand.

    The concept of creative destruction is real and a positive overall.

  3. #3
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    I have to agree that corporations are destroying not only the optical industy, but industy as a whole.

    The absolute worst corporate policy in the optical business is the "guarenteed or your money back" refund policy.
    There are people all over the world who cannot afford medical implements such as glasses. It breaks my heart when someone comes into my office (which is corporate) and demands a refund because they simply do not like what they purchased. There should be stronger laws governing the abuse of refunding medical devices.

  4. #4
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    Corporate optical has certainly changed the face of the business, but I still believe that it is not hare to compete against them. As independents, we can (should) be more agile and be able to change our market plans in mid course. Many of these outlets buy their products 8-12 months in advance. We do have an advantage in being able to connect w/ our customers and find out what they want-and charge more because it's not like all the corporate stores.

    Make more with less.

  5. #5
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    Harry,

    The chains brought this upon themselves. Like BOGO, weekly coupons or 50% discounts on whatever, the consumer now thinks that everyone in optical is either a ripoff or overpriced. Thanks, corporate vision. They set up a paradigm of high priced locations requiring lots of customer flow to be profitable. If the economy slows to much, the nut is too hard to crack and that location is gone. But I agree that this destructive nature is endemic to commercial retail.

    Look at real estate. Realtors have prospered for years at 6% commissions. Now that homes can sell for (instance) $1M, sellers don't think that the agent is worth $60,000. Enter cut rate agents who sell at 4% or 3% or 2%, or FSBO (for sale by owner), where for a flat rate -less than $1000- , there is no agent. There is always someone who will do it cheaper or has a similar knockoff product to peddle to the unsuspecting public, who will undoubtedly confuse it with the full serveice product they have been used to.

    Look at travel agencies, where a 10% commission was part of nearly all travel or hotel tickets. There has always been someone with their hand out looking for a way to skim $$$ out of the system for themsleves. The airlines and cruiselines cut commissions in half -several times-. I don't know if there are commissions anymore. Good travel agents charge fees to cover their time. Then Priceline et al enter the fray to deep discount left over seats and rooms. With dozens of prices for exactly the same products, it's a crapshoot to get the best deal.

    Look at WalMart or Home Depot. There is no doubt that their low prices have been the foundation of their success, but at what price? Many thousands of Mom and Pop stores across the country folded. Throughout the country, dozens of large, national and regional department and hardware stores, have folded. They changed the rules. In commercial retail (predatory retail), changing the rules (thinking out of the box) is the prime directive. They went to suppliers and negotiated special versions of widely recognized products, some not quite as good -or with as many options- as the original, and got great pricing for mass purchases.

    Then look at optical. The model is similar. Sell uints of products. Period. Assign some "value added" benefit to coatings, designer names, questionable features like spring hinges to inflate income. Give a "money back guarantee" so customers don't think they are being ripped off if the cost is too great. Who cares if the frames are discontinued or the progressives are old designs? Buy real cheap. Sell for as much as you can. The "aura" of designer names may help a little, but we all know that there are hundreds of "virtual" designer names that only appear on eyeglass frames. Customers may or may not care. Do any of you feel that virtual "designer" frames from China should be sold for many hundreds of dollars? Or sell for whatever the market will bear?

    In each area of retail, there are only so many dollars to be spent. Period. (Sometimes, as in the optical field, retail will disgiuse itself as "medical" to get a few non-retail bucks into the mix.) If there are now 5 times as many outlets available to buy a product, with some of them being mega stores operating at extremely low margins and high unit sales, to survive, something has to give.

    Big box retailers in electronics, photography and computers seem to come and go out of business on a regular cycle. We've seen this in optical, sometimes with the same principals at the head of the failing corporations.

    Look at 1-800. Same thing. Skip inforcing state and federal Rx requirements; buy product on the grey market where ever available in whatever currency. Had the product been stolen, would their business plan have been any different? Buy cheap. Sell to whoever will pay cash for what ever price. Convert product to cash as soon as possible. Invest it elsewhere.

    In all cases, customer service drops. The corporation collects large fees and profits, while the "sales associates" probably can't live on their hourly wages.

    If 2 or 3 companies own the majority of optical labs, there will be greatly reduced freedom of choice in products and prices will rise. This may be an opportunity for small labs to flourish IF they can get product.

    There will always be someone trying to sell an apparently similar product for less. Or selling the same product cheaper because they got in in an unconventional way. What is different with the new crop of predatory retailers is that they are excellent pretenders. Pretending that their way is the right way and the best way. And doing it in a way that the the general population believes them.

    The economy is a living, breathing entity responding to every cheap trick that less-than-honest individuals or corporations pull. The truly sad fact is that as these watered down services and products are accepted by the population as the de-facto standards, we lose the premium, quality products and services that we took for granted when dealing with the traditional major corporations. The tens of thousands of lost businesses and hundreds of thousands of out of work or underemployeed individuals are just colateral damage of predatory, commercial retail's growth. As in the real world, life and death in corporate retail reflects the strong getting stronger and muscling out the weaker, perhaps more conventional, entities. Until, of course, the tides change and the strong conquerer falters and is bought by another suitor and digested into it or liquidated.

    To me, it sounds like life during the dinosaur ages.

    Enron, Worldcom, Qualcom....were obviously following the same model.

    ===========================================

    PS How did I let "managed care" escape my analysis? Once upon a time, you went to the doctor and paid a reasonable fee when you left. Everyone was happy. Except corporate America, who was left out. They came up with health insurance, where a third party would pay your bill. Someone had to ante up the cash to run the program and pay the hundreds of thousands of company stockholders their dividends. It was the doctors. No longer would they get 100 cents on the dollar; 80 cents was considered acceptable. Some providers balked and didn't join, but as more patients became members of insurance plans, they had to. Some doctors and hospitals raised their fees so the 80% reimbursement level was workable. Others saw the strategy and followed suit. Before long, fees were skyrocketing well beyond what a non-insured person could afford. The mainstream insurance companies saw this but it took an outsider like US Healthcare to reinvent "managed care". They came back with exceptionally low reimbursements, capitation and, perhaps, illegal -or at least highly questionable- business practices to make managed care very profitable. Aetna was so intrigued with the profitability that they bought the company and adopted its model. To make a long story short, all of the US Healthcare execs are now gone, some in prison for illegal dealings. Aetna got stuck with a highly over priced shell game of managed care that caused a physician's revolt and serious questions about the financial stability of the company. The long term fallout is that physicians and hospitals now receive less than 38% of all health care dollars resulting in much higher fees for non-insured patients and economic hard times for many providers and hospitals.

    If this were a crime movie, the "protection" boys would be stopping by to collect their "percentage" of your business. This, however, is the real world and the percentage taken by the legal outsiders is far greater than that taken by the mob.

    The moral of the story is that there is always someone out there trying to get their hand into your pocket, whether legally or not. Business have to adapt to protect themselves from these parasites ....I mean "new business models".
    Last edited by Foveator; 04-19-2003 at 09:07 AM.

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    Excellent post, Foveator!

    The question is, is this all a down-hill spiral, or is this a pendulum that is currently swinging in one direction that will eventually swing in the other direction?

  7. #7
    Rising Star sticklert's Avatar
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    This is the normal cycle of a free market

    I am sorry but nothing has changed. Everything has its cycle. I am a little young to remember the B&L days but I know of them.

    The Hoya / Essilor / Sola buying up labs is more money in the company's cash flow to develop new products. The independent labs still have around 70% of the market so you can't tell me the big guys are taking over.

    As for the Walmarts and Costcos they are selling to the bottom 1/3 of the pyramid which is a market that would never think of spending $400- $500 for a pair of glasses and that is what the independent is their for. If an independent is trying to compete for the 1 pair special for $50 than they need to rethink their position in the market place because they will more than likely not be around 5 yrs down the road. An independent should focus on the top 2/3 of the pyramid looking at providing the most current advanced products with the best service and expertise in his or her field. The independent market is about quality and service not price.

    The independent market is very resilient and has gone through some great highs and bounced out of some low lows. The one thing I know is that for those people who know their place in the market and serve it well, will survive. And that is said for any retail based entity

    Just my two cents,

    Todd

  8. #8
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    EDven big corporations are sometimes misleading............................

    At this instance I am re-posting this article i pulled from the Japan Times 2 weeks ago.



    Hoya ordered to halt misleading ads for eyeglasses


    The Fair Trade Commission said Friday it has ordered eyeglass manufacturer Hoya Corp. to stop making misleading claims about its products.
    Between May 1996 and last November, Hoya claimed some of its eyeglasses with plastic lenses were processed with a special coating called siplus to strengthen them.

    At least 36,000 lenses sold to 18,000 people did not, however, undergo the complete coating process, the FTC said.

    Hoya did without some of the coating processes at its four factories and shipped the lenses to eyeglass retailers to meet delivery deadlines, the regulatory agency said.

    Plastic lenses with the coating can be several times stronger than ordinary lenses, according to Hoya.

    The FTC ordered Hoya to apologize to consumers through the media or through other means.

    Hoya, based in Tokyo, is capitalized at about 6.2 billion yen. It has a roughly 40 percent share of the domestic market for eyeglass lenses, which is worth 210 billion yen on a shipment basis.

    The Japan Times: March 29, 2003
    (C) All rights reserved

  9. #9
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    Foveator,

    Well said.

    The new way of doing business is not specific to our industry only. Great examples.

    I still stand by my presmise that these huge retailers are nothing more than "strainers"for the independents. All the small dollars go to the bottom (chains), leaving much of the big money untouched.

    Speaking for my business, I have never intended to make $$ from the masses. I don't gauge my companies success by how many SKU's we move, or what our customer traffic count is. We build our business as we build relationships with each customer, then each family, then the community.

    Where is K-Mart optical? Twin Valu optical ? Eyeglass Factory ?

  10. #10
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    RIGHT ON STICKLERT! I couldn't agree more!

  11. #11
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    I can remember when my employer thought his only compeditor in town and a few others around the state were cheapening the optical business by advertizing. Even went so far as to get the state association to condem the practice. This made no change in the situation of course.

    I can even remember when the first doctors began to fill thier own Rx's (after being cut back by the "common roof ruling." Upset all the independents a lot. Our being upset didn't change the evolution (decline) of medical ethics though.

    I can also remember when softlens began to appear and incompetent dingbats were putting them on everybody even if they couldn't see well with them. I remember when I seemed to be a majority of one that felt extended wear presented much greater dangers and daily wear. Or that when I felt that soft lenses were more dangerous than rigid lenses because they didn't have courtesy to hurt when something was wrong.

    You just have to live in the changing world and realize that you live in and adapt whether you like it or not. I have learned to stop tilting at windmills even when I see evil winds turning them.

    "God grant me the serenity...."

    Chip

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    Yea Foveator
    I suppose you have a point - but here in our small town - what has caused the greatest shift of our patients to the big corporates is probably the motor car. Its so easy for them to jump in the car go to the big towns get their spex, cheap goods and drive back. The fact that the big corporations have profited from this is not really their fault.

    I think that the pendulum will swing again - and as fashions change - people may vote with their feet - to where they get best value ( value meaning best quality at the price offered).
    Happy Easter!
    palfi

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    Palfi said, "I think that the pendulum will swing again - and as fashions change - people may vote with their feet - to where they get best value (value meaning best quality at the price offered)."

    Isn't the reason chains are successful is because the public PERCEIVES it is getting the same quality at the price offered at chains compared to the independents? They don't know that all lenses aren't the same, and the chain sure isn't going to tell the customer that the reason he can get a cheap price is because he is getting a cheap, last-generation product.

    Independents can't educate the patient until they come into the independent's establishment.

    Isn't it interesting, where do the people go when they've had a bad experience at a chain? To an independent!

  14. #14
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    JOHNS; You surely have the key to the stability of your business; it's all about building relationships, instilling trust, striving for excellance in product, service and personal integrity. being intentionally honest with everyone. corporate retail has lost it's soul, replaced it with the idolitry of how much money can we make, right now. just a few accomplished MBA's tinkering with the economy. and rewarding themselves dearly; they've always been there, failing, and causing failure for those closest to them; their famililies, their employees and their clientele. it's all about pressuring vendors to sell product for a lot less than they really can, until they're forced out of business, about marking those products up as much as possible, then telling people thy're on sale for half price, or bogo, or being an optical benefit insurance provider, than you can get almost fully inflated prices because the insurance company pays some of it. and the HR directors are right there, buying into the vision benefit plans, doing away with the basic, fundamental free enterprize system so that it can aid the retailers by creating monopolies, after all, you're not allowed the "priviledge" of being a provder if you're only one shop, or if you're not owned by the doctor, or if you don't want to mark up product so much that your non-insurance clients can't afford your services. So, the best thing to do is take care of the people who do appreciate your services, and who are willing to pay your fair prices. solicit referrals, appreciate repeat business, pay your bills on time, strive for excellance in product, service and care. it is way less expensive and highly more profitable. If you happen to have patients go to doctors that don't continually write bad rx's, that'd be just added gravy! Spend some time educating your clients about the economics of the industry; do folks really think that being on a vision insurance plan saves them money? it, can't, but you need to be able to show them why they shouldn't participate, if they have the option. people should understand that our field is highly "value added" and labor intensive, we have expenses that have nothing to do with the product, but so do the corporate retailers. rent, utilities, phones, insurance, payroll, taxes, etc. frames don't all cost the same, not even the same ones. everyone doesn't mark up the same, most products can't be done in an hour, unless you were in a major wholesale lab and they didn't have anything else to do but your job. what are the odds of a one-hour lab having the proper lens blanks to even start a job? unless of course some liberties are taken with base curves and add powers, and I have seen pal's with 2 right eye blanks that the pt is having problems with, that their maker could not find the problem. Amazing. I do need to thank the corp. retailers for giving consumers a bad comparison so that they can appreciate decent work when they see it; thank them that they have inflated the price structure that people are willing to pay good money for good work; thank them that they don't have any repeat customers, thank them that none of our customers are demanding 'one hour' service, or satisfaction refunds; so, I really owe them a lot, but we just need to focus in on maintaining quality care.

  15. #15
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    America, What a country !!

    Hansel: Great Thread!
    Foveator: Great Overview!
    Sticklert: Good Application!
    Johns: Great Response!
    Chip: Good Advice!
    Texas Ranger: Good Support! (of Johns, Chip and myself)
    Palfi: Great insight! Motorcar is often ignored!

    All - including those I didn't mention - were good posts. Dialogue seems to be working! What a Country!

    A free market econmoy will always founder on it's own success or die trying. It never knows the words: enough or satisfied. This is an argument for a more socialized form of market - perhaps not a good argument, but an argument that stems from seeing good people getting hurt and taken advantage of: Independent business owners, Investors and Employees. (Enron is case in point) It is like nature, which devouers itslef to stay alive - the more powerful organism eats the lest powerful (unlucky). And so life goes on - without the devouering, live can not continue.

    Those of us who have lived in a less-than-free market economy find that it does not work either. There is always a day of reconing that requires everthing from a war (coup) or a change in the monetary system to correct for the unreality and the greedy leaderhsip.

    So the concept that Johns, Chip, & Tex have described is where some of us choose to live. Actually, the free market economy allows anyone, fed up with the corporateness of the world economy to opt out and do our private little things. What a Country!

  16. #16
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    re

    It was interesting to read all of your opinions on this subject. What an incredibly mature and well informed message board community this is...

    I understand that the industry is cyclical and things usually repeat after they run their course. I guess, to me, it seems that the industry keeps getting pushed further and further towards the dark side.....er, I mean corporate. In my area, only five years ago we had countless choices of strong independent laboratories to use for our Rx work. Now, most of those labs have been bought by the axis of evil, Essilor and Hoya. They are not run by the same people and I feel like they are forcing their own lens products down my throat every time I call in an Rx. If there is a problem, I can't speak to any authority figure that can actually correct the situation. The turn-around time is slow and the quality of the optics has dropped off dramatically.

    Just last week, I walked through a Costco and glanced at the optical section of the store. I couldn't get over the prices. Progressives for sale at the price that I almost pay from our laboratory. Quality frames and AR Coatings for a great value. I think that this is just the start for the industry.

    I guess my fear is that the cycle that we are in hasn't quite hit the point where it will swing back to the "good old days." I think that this corporate cycle has just begun and will get much worse before it improves for us. I stand behind my original post subject name of "I hate corporate optical" because I truly do. I will continue to plug away at what I do on a daily basis and attempt to differentiate our office from those of corporate optical, but it gets harder and harder every day.

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    Costco charges COST (COGS) at the store. The profit is from the fee's paid to join. So you can always expect their pricing to be lower.

  18. #18
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    MaGICIAN:

    You don't really believe that do you ? Lower cost, maybe but COGS? Of course we could all claim the same thing. (I sell at cost w/ just only an additional charge for my overhead) (???)

    -Or- Maybe I'll charge all my customers a "membership" fee, and then tell them what a deal they're getting!

  19. #19
    sticklert pointed out that,
    An independent should focus on the top 2/3 of the pyramid looking at providing the most current advanced products with the best service and expertise in his or her field. The independent market is about quality and service not price.
    Johns wrote,
    Speaking for my business, I have never intended to make $$ from the masses. I don't gauge my companies success by how many SKU's we move, or what our customer traffic count is. We build our business as we build relationships with each customer, then each family, then the community.
    and
    Texas Ranger added,
    JOHNS; You surely have the key to the stability of your business; it's all about building relationships, instilling trust, striving for excellance in product, service and personal integrity. being intentionally honest with everyone. corporate retail has lost it's soul, replaced it with the idolitry of how much money can we make¡_

    These remarks regarding independents¡¯ survival tactics all sound good on the paper, and I am sure that there are enough customer base for certain independents to strive and survive. But I really doubt that they constitute 2/3 of the upper pyramid, more like 1/3 or even less(I believe that this ratio is generally true in most industries; otherwise, the widespread of discount stores will establish such equilibrium sooner or later). I consider myself a ¡®value oriented¡¯ consumer. I don¡¯t necessarily buy cheap stuff. Like Palfi said, ¡°value meaning best quality at the price offered¡±, nor will I pay blindly for high price name brand products neither. When I see a product with good value, I never hesitate to reach deep into my pocket. I want to know how any of you O¡¯s will lure a ¡®value oriented¡¯ customer like me into your doorstep(Just pretend that you have never read anything I¡¯d posted in any eye care forum except for this post to prevent any personal bias). Let me start with a simple question:

    Did I get quality ¡®service¡¯ from my COSTCO OD?

    Actually this was the question that I addressed to STOPPER in another thread which is forced to rest in peace now. The following is a little background of the above question.

    In my response to STOPPER regarding ¡®service¡¯, I wrote,

    Service
    I paid $80 for eye glasses refraction and the CL fitting which lasted over a span of 2 months. Altogether, I had 8 free trial lenses including the successful pair. I filled out at least one if not two pages of my medical and CL history (those 'yes/no' type of questions) at the first visit. He spent a good 15-20 minutes during the first visit. The subsequent 3-4 visits lasted anywhere between 5 and 10 minutes. He didn't push me to buy CL from his recommended source, and gladly gave me the CL prescription upon my request. To me, this was a very good deal because this was also the first time in my life to walk out an OD office with a pair of comfortable CLs. What do you think? Did I get sub-standard care for $80? Do you offer much better service with this price or two times the price with the same service? My OD did not do dilation, just pressure test. Do you? My OD certainly hoped that not every CL wearer was as 'demanding' as I was. I don't think any other ODs like customers like me neither.

    My second question is ¡°Why should I buy the same CLs from the O¡¯s office while I can buy them much cheaper and more conveniently from discount store nearby?¡±. The following is also a little background of the above question.

    In my response to STOPPER regarding ¡®product¡¯, I wrote,

    Product
    My OD's office is as 10 minutes from my work, and the discount store where I bought my CL is 4 minutes from my home. I believe the OD's in general do not have the CL with the right prescription in his/her office. In term of convenience, the discount store obviously has an edge. In term of waiting time, both would be the same because the CLs were shipped from the same place. In term of price, I did save a lot. What would be your choice, the more expensive CL from the OD or the cheaper CL from the discount store?
    Any of you can treat my questions to STOPPER as yours whenever you see fit. Your patients may be 10, 30 or 60 miles from your office while the discount stores are everywhere, unless the patients are your long lost pals, how do you convince them to buy the same product from you at a much higher price than the discount stores?

    I am willing to pay more if the explanation is good.

    PS
    Please allow me to correct one accidental mistake that I made at the last post of the ¡®dead thread¡¯. In my response to PAW, I wrote: ¡®Based on your astonished response to hj's confession¡¯ , it should be ¡°Johns¡¯s confession¡± instead of ¡°hj¡¯s confession¡±.

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    dyip said, "My second question is 'Why should I buy the same CLs from the OD's office while I can buy them much cheaper and more conveniently from discount store nearby?' ".

    I do not accept your premise that you CAN buy CL much cheaper and more conveniently from the discount store nearby.

    Speaking for our office:
    1. Our CL are priced competitively with Wal-Mart's.
    2. I guarantee you it is also more convenient to buy CL from us than from the discount store nearby. It is a short walk from the parking space to the front desk, and we greet people immediately. A patient can park, walk in, receive their CL, pay for them, and be back in their car in literally one minute. Try that at any discount store. Plus, we know our patients and greet them by name :)

  21. #21
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    Dyip:

    The service you received was somewhere around "average", but I don't think you over paid. At our office you would have paid $90, but would have been dialated, and the fitting would not have lasted over a week let alone "over two months". I would start to wonder about the competance of a practioner that needed two months to properly fit a CL. It sounds like they should have paid you a research stipend. I would pay more for a fitting that would allieviate the need for me to drive to the warehouse doctor over and over until they figure out which lens works. Is your time really that invaluable. You did say they gave you SIX trials?? It took them six tries ? Chip could probably fit you over the phone on 2 tries. But hey, it's your time !

    At our office for the $90, you would have received a copy of your Rx, no questions asked. If you don't purchase the contacts from us, you are more than welcome to go online. No problem. If you get in a jam (late night, weekend, etc...) and you're out of contacts, we pull your file to verify you purchased a year supply w/in the last 11 months, if you have, we give you a free pair to get you through, if not, we advise you to go online for help.

    Paw: Regarding the restrictions on our free contacts; the only restriction is that on torics, you only get 1/2 off. Like I said, there's not much profit in CLs anyway, so why not give them away. We sell a ton of glasses to folks that are wear glasses that are from 2 or 3 rx changes ago. Most times, they leave, shop around, and come back, so no, I'm not worried about them thinking we are higher priced than anyone else.
    Last edited by Johns; 04-27-2003 at 08:37 PM.

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    For your information .....................................

    Copied out of Vision Monday


    Essilor Buys Three More Labs Outside the U.S.

    CHARENTON-LE-PONT, France--Essilor has acquired two prescription-lens laboratories in Canada: Morrison Optical in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, and Custom Surface Ltd. in Winnipeg. Essilor also bought a third lab, Vision Express, located near Chennai, India.

    Each of the newly acquired optical labs generates sales of $1 million or less, according to Essilor.


    Vol. No: 17:08Issue: 4/28/03

  23. #23
    PAW,
    1) I bought my CLs from SAM¡¯s Club at a price much cheaper than that of Wal Mart and many web sites. The $35 annual membership fee is really nothing comparing with the amount saved by the big discounts of many popular items.
    2) When you talked about the short distance from parking lot to your front door, I don¡¯t deny that the discount stores do not have this advantage. This is why people don¡¯t go to discount stores to buy just 1 or 2 items. BTW, your customers may still need to drive across town in order to take advantage of the ¡®short walk¡¯ convenience while the discount stores are within minutes of driving distance to most people. With today¡¯s high gasoline price, you may consider reimbursing your customers the round trip mileage as a promotion. Your customers will sure love this gimmick. :p




    Cassandra,

    To seriously answer your question in the ¡®dead tread¡¯
    .....What is their markup?
    The car dealers make their profits not just by selling cars, but mainly by servicing cars. There are so many parts in a car that can go wrong at any given time, auto service is a big business for the car dealers, honest or crooked. They may sell you a car below invoice, but they will get back to you sooner or later when you bring you car back to them for service. Thinking about long term investment, spend first and get the rewards later - this is a big advantage of the deep pocket big corporations.




    Johns,

    At the beginning of the ¡®dead thread¡¯, I wrote,
    I had tried soft lenses first and then RGP for many years and eventually gave up both because of the unbearable discomfort. I had switched back to eyeglasses for 5 years and thought that I would kiss the CL goodbye for good until I went to an OD office inside a local COSTCO store to have my eyeglasses prescription renewed around half year ago. The OD talked me into wearing soft CL again. The deal was that I paid the $80 fitting fee and would get as many trial lenses as I needed. After 8 different trial lenses on both eyes and 2 months later, I finally got the perfect fit (The average is 2 fittings per eye for toric lens wearers, so I felt a little bit embarrassed when I called the OD for the last trial).
    My original plan was just to renew my eye glasses prescription, and since the deal presented by the OD during the first visit sounded reasonable, I just went ahead with the fitting. There wasn¡¯t any obvious reason for me to spend extra time to shop around for the best OD in town. It took me about 10 minutes to drive from the exit of my company to the front door of the OD¡¯s office, so the multiple trips didn¡¯t seem to be a big hassle, though I did not anticipate so many trips were required to get the perfect fit. On the other hand, with so many OD¡¯s in a big city, there is really no easy way for an average person to hunt down the best OD¡¯s in town besides words of mouth. Convenience and low price (with unlimited free trials) were still the two main factors for me to select an OD at that time.

    You don¡¯t need to be a COSTCO member in order to be a patient of the OD inside the store. I didn¡¯t know what the relationship between my OD and COSTCO was. I noticed that there was at least another OD shared the same office at different times. I couldn¡¯t tell if the OD¡¯s affiliated with COSTOC or they were independent.

    As an outsider, I think that toric CL fitting can be tricky because there are 5 Rx parameters for toric lens for each eye, not to mention the different materials offered by different brands for different eye tolerances. In order to fit perfectly within two trials per eye, it means that at least 4 out of 5 parameters must be right the first time per eye, and/or the lens material must be suitable for the patient. How often can you accomplish 2 trial successful rate? Do the O¡¯s in general take pride in how fast they converge in a fitting?

    Your $90 fee seems like a very good deal to me. However, I am not sure if any other O¡¯s could have done a better job than my OD if he/she knows my fitting story. Again, the story below is kind of lengthy and analytical. I think that the O¡¯s with a passion in the eye care profession may find my story informative. Hopefully there may be some lessons learnt for me and other O¡¯s from this incident.


    ************BEGINNING OF STORY***************

    First and second trial lenses(duration 1week)

    left eye : Acuvue Toric; right eye: Encore Toric
    There was no previous CL record, the OD figured out the Rx parameters. He had both trial lenses available for me to take home the same day.

    My feedback: Acuvue was not comfortable, vision not very sharp. Encore Toric was very comfortable, but the vision was unstable - drifted between clear and blurry throughout the day.

    OD¡¯s feedback: He admitted that Acuvue was not the most comfortable CL to many patients, and the discomfort might be due to the material and lenses design. Encore Toric was too loose - lens too flat.


    OD¡¯s recommendation: Fitted me a pair of Frequency 55 Toric which had smaller base curves(8.4) than that of the first pair. He believed that Frequency was a good choice because a lot of patients liked it. I picked up the second pair several days later.


    Third and forth trial lenses(duration 3 weeks)

    left and right eyes: Frequency 55 Toric, Rx parameters unchanged

    My feedback: Still the same unstable vision on the right eye. The comfort level during the first two hours was good on both eyes, and then it went downhill from there. Both eyes turned red at 3 o¡¯clock region by the time I removed both lenses after 14 hours wear time. The strain continued after lens removal. Stopped wearing CL after 2 days because of the irritation. Resumed the Frequency two days before the third OD visit, the discomfort continued. I thought that the discomfort was due to the much thicker Frequency 55 in comparison with the Encore Toric, and my eyes suffocated by the end of the day(both lens materials are very similar).

    OD¡¯s feedback: Since I had been wearing the Frequency for less than two hours at the time of OD visit, the strain on my eyes hadn¡¯t shown up yet. So my eyes looked normal to the OD. The OD said that both lenses still appeared loose even though both CLs had smaller base curve.

    OD¡¯s recommendation: I mentioned about the discomfort of the Frequency but did not emphasized too much about the strain. He said that slight redness of the eyes was normal for CL wearers and suggested that unless I went for the more expensive daily wear custom made toric lenses, my options for disposables were limited. He told me to give the Frequency 55 Toric a chance and handed me the Rx.

    Two weeks later, my eyes still could not adjust to the Frequency. Someone told me about the Softlens 66 Toric being one of the most comfortable CL with high DK value. I called the OD office and mentioned to him on the phone regarding my eye discomfort and the Softlens 66. He said that the high water content (66%) of the Softlens might cause dry eye but he respected my request and ordered me a new trial pair.


    Fifth and sixth trial lenses(duration 2 weeks
    left and right eyes: Softlens 66 Toric, Rx parameters unchanged

    My feedback: Softlens were very comfortable throughout the whole wearing period. No complaint of dry eyes. However, my eyeballs are too small for the bigger diameter Softlens. When I rolled my eyeballs up or down to the extreme position, the irritation was too much to handle. Vision on right eye was still unstable. During the forth OD visit, I told him about the irritation and said that I would like to try out the Encore Toric on my left eye since the first Encore trial lens worked out fine on my right eye. By that time, I found out from several Toric lens articles that my unstable vision was due to incorrect axis on the right eye. The axis of my eyeglasses Rx was 165 degrees, but the CL axis was 160. I suggested to the OD to change the axis to 170 degrees. The OD said that the 170 degree axis might end up having the same unstable vision since my actual axis was right at the middle of the two readings.

    OD¡¯s feedback: The OD thought that the Softlens fitted pretty well. He said that the bigger diameter increased the lens stability. However, he ordered another Encore Toric for my left eye per my request. He wrote me the Rx for both Softlens and Encore Toric just in case. I picked up the new trial lens several days later.


    Seventh trial lens(duration 2 weeks)
    left eye: Encore Toric, Rx parameters unchanged

    My feedback: The new Encore worked out very well on my left eye. After one week of successful wear, I finally order 6 pairs of Encore Toric. But the unstable vision on my right eye still bothered me. Deep inside my heart, I really wanted to try the 170 degree axis. Eventually, I gathered enough courage and phoned the OD for a trial lens with the 170 degree axis. The OD promptly accepted my request and ordered me the last trial lens. I picked up the lens and the latest Rx several days later.


    Eighth trial lens(successful)
    Right eye: Encore Toric, 170 degree axis(instead of 160 degree for the old lens)

    My feedback: To my amazement, the new lens fixed the unstable vision problem right away. Without hesitation, I bought a box of new lenses.


    **********************THE END*******************


    Left right, right left.......Acuvue, Frequency, Softlens, Encore......., 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th trial......, unstable vision....... 160, 165, 170 degrees.........I hope that you are still following.:(

    In summary, all 4 trial lenses for the left eyes had the same Rx parameters, just different brands- Acuvue, Frequency 55 Toric, Softlens 66 Toric and Encore Toric.

    The first 3 trial lenses for the right eyes had the same Rx parameters, just different brands- Encore Toric, Frequency 55 Toric and Softlens 66 Toric. The last trial lens was the same as the first one except for a 10 degrees difference in axis.

    I ended up using Encore Toric for both left and right eyes.

    In retrospect, the fitting could have been finished at the second visit if the OD just replaced the Acuvue by Encore Toric on the left eye and added 10 degrees to the CL axis of the right eye. Even though experience of the practitioner is important to converge the fitting process within one or two trials, I believe that luck sometimes plays a part too. If he started with a 170 degree lens (instead of 160 degree) at the very beginning, my right eye would have been perfectly fitted at the very first trial, and the next logical step for him to do was to fit my left eye with another Encore Toric. He would not think that the unstable vision was due to the lenses being too flat and fit me the Frequency 55 Toric with a smaller base curve. I went there 3 times for fitting followup, 4 more times to pick up the trial lenses(on my way to/from work) and 2 phone calls for trial lens requests. It might sound a lot of times to other people, but I learnt a lot about CL (as a consumer) throughout the whole process too. I sincerely did not blame the OD for the big detour. At least, he kept his promise that he would fit until I was satisfied. Maybe, the CL manufactures should start making CL with 5 degree steps for the axis to take care of wearer like me. This will save a lot of times and money for both OD and patients.

    What would be your approach to converge the fitting within two trials per eye in my case? Will you fit until the customer is satisfied?




    You know, I wouldn¡¯t be talking to you guys/gals right now if my OD just added 10 more degrees in the axis of the first trial lens. So who is the culprit, my OD, the CL manufacturer or dyip?

  24. #24
    Bad address email on file
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    So. CA
    Occupation
    Optical Retail
    Posts
    273

    back on track...

    What an interesting thread. I agree with everyone that shares the opinion that the low-end chains are basically catered to the buyers that would be the least profitable for a much smaller office or optical. I don't consider them competition. They usually just strain out the headaches for us. All cosco does is buy discontinued product that the large manufacturers are trying to dump while selling Korean PAL's for a decent profit at 79$ a pair or whatever they charge.

    Lenscrafters is a differant story however. They are quite expensive (accept for the twice a year buy one get one dump product sale), and still hold a good size market share. Is this ONLY due to their mass marketing strategies??

    By the way,

    DYIP,

    Not to seem rude, but how can you be so conscious of a longer drive to a better location when it must take at least 15-20 minutes for you to write a post for only this humble little board. We wouldn't be on company time would we:finger:

    P.S. just messing with you, no need to delve into the depths of my psyke.:D

  25. #25
    Aaron,
    My work schedule is very flexible in my profession. Working 9 to 5 is a very remote concept to me. I can surf the web for several hours during the regular working hours and stay later to make up for the time if I want to(But I find no reason to do this). Are you envious? Probably, when your business is slow, you may have all the time in the world to surf the web too.

    Based on your remark about my post, you are really missing the forest for the trees.

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