Optometric Physicians

[Homer]

Hey gang, I'd like to know the states in which the term Optometric Physician is being used by OD's.

Do any states have a specific designation for the term, such as one who has a special certification?

[Optom]

Homer,
I know of state of Oregon uses term Optometric Physcian,but am not 100% sure..
Rgd,
S Kapasi

[Homer]

Habari y Kazi?

Do they also use the term Optometric Physician in Tanzania or other African countries?

Kwahari,

Homer

[Suzy W]

Yes, they are using that term here in Oregon. I'm not sure about other states.

Suzy

[Optom]

JAMBO HOMER,

Are you an African immigrant to USA:bbg: seems you know Kiswahili.

Optometrist are respectfully called daktari(doctor)in Tanzania.About other African countries I do not know but I guess we are called doctors.You may have knowledge that optometrists do perform successful eye surgeries like tarsal rotation and cataracts in many parts of Africa.

Kwaheri(bye)

Shabbir

[hcjilson]

By Law in Massachusetts, only MD's may be called physicians. It should , repeat should, be law in every state to avoid confusing the public any futher than they already are.

To quote from Merriam's site:

Main Entry: phy·si·cian
Pronunciation: f&-'zi-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English fisicien, from Old French, from fisique medicine
Date: 13th century
1 : a person skilled in the art of healing; specifically : a doctor of medicine

[Traci]

Optometrist's in Arkansas are designated as Optometric Physicians.

[hcjilson]

By whom? My guess is that they refer to themselves that way, I am reasonalby sure physicians do not. I cannot believe they would discount 3 years of additional study plus a 2 year residency that easily.

I in no way demean the optometric profession with the statement above. Optometrists are extremely well educated and trained, and I have the highest respect for them.

[Pete Hanlin]

...by the definition for physician that you supplied (referring to them as "healers"), an Optometrist with the ability to use therapeutics (i.e. ODs in all 50 states) are physicians. ODs treat bacterial infections (certain forms of conjunctivitis), co-manage cataract post ops and other procedures, treat glaucoma, etc. The rising cost of malpractice insurance for ODs surely reflects their emergence into "physicianhood" as well.

The term Optometric Physician is widely used in Florida. BTW, Opticians are called Licensed Dispensing Opticians here, and it is illegal to include the work "Optician" on your business card unless you are a LDO.

[hcjilson]

Pete,
Call me from the old school, but while I will freely acknowledge that optometry is the primary source of eyecare, they are NOT physicians. The fact they have taken a course in pharmacology to be able to administer topical drugs to allow the diagnosis of glaucoma, and can prescribe antibiotics for conjunctivitus does not in any way, shape, and matter of form make them physicians.

Do you think it was the physicians who coined the term Optometric Phyisians, or do you think it was the Optometrists? I care not a whit either way, I just think it tends to confuse those not in the industry who now can't tell the difference between an Optometrist, Optician, or Opthalomologist.

I cannot believe you have never experienced that confusion while in practice and IF I were a betting man...I would bet you 5 bucks you have heard one of your own customers tell you they didn't know the difference.......Unfortunately I gave up wagering a short time ago after loosing a sum of money to an Optiboarder! ( of all people) :D :D

hj

[Pete Hanlin]

Well of course the term Optometric Physicians was developed at least partially to help position ODs better in the marketplace. I am not arguing that. I was simply pointing out that the use of the term "physician" wasn't totally inappropriate.

As much as ODs try to benefit by providing services that one could argue would ideally be performed by an Ophthalmologist, the MDs also benefit by portraying themselves as the appropriate resource for routine examinations- which they are not (assuming their practice is designed around the provision of surgical procedures and treatment of ocular disease).

Personally, if I were an OD, I would build my practice around the provision of eyewear (to the chagrin of those who feel medical providers should not also provide the medicines which they prescribe, like our colleague Homer). After you've crunched all the numbers, providing routine eye exams and selling the eyewear that results from those exams is the activity with the highest profit margin.

If my fellow practitioners in the area want the prestige of co-managing cataract surgeries (and the Medicare documentation hassles that come along with it), specializing in contact lenses (which are basically a black hole of profitless chair time in most practices), and the rest, they would be welcome to it!

I would be happy to charge $30 for a thorough eye exam, and attempt to maintain a gross profit of $150 per frame/lens sale. No insurance, no plans, nada. See 15 patients a day, have a receptionist and one optician, and enjoy primary care Optometry with a take home of about $65-80k/year!

But, that's just me, I suppose... Perhaps I would just be an unambitious doc. As it is, Opticianry has been extremely kind to me as a chosen profession- it is nice to be able to heartily recommend it to the young people I know as a vocation in which you are limited only by your desire to achieve.

[dfisher]

At the risk of getting bashed here, ODs are NOT physicians by any stretch of imagination or definition. In states where the use of the term has been legislated, it is simply a function of their strong political lobby and legislators who are not intelligent enough to know the difference. Nurse practicioners are much closer to the definition of physician than optometrists.

As far as the concept OD/MD dispensing is concerned, it is an ethical conflict of interest which has come to be generally accepted by the public. But how would you feel going to your medical doctor and end up being coerced into buying prescription medication from his pharmacy in the waiting room?

[Laurie]

Also at the risk of being bashed,

I completely agree with dfisher. Doctors should not sell that which they prescribe. It is a conflict of interest. Even though OD's have gone through tremendous training, they are not
medical doctors. And, if they insist on being perceived as such, as Homer stated, they should disban thier licensing boards and move under the Medical boards and the AMA.

Pete...I would say that $60 - $80 thousand per year as an OD is VERY low. Heck, I know opticians who make that!

; )

Laurie

[Joann Raytar]

Laurie said:
And, if they insist on being perceived as such, as Homer stated, they should disban thier licensing boards and move under the Medical boards and the AMA.

Also at the risk of being bashed too,

Homer may be correct on this one but there is an even stronger stone wall that would prevent any such change in regulation - the MDs. It's just human nature; they would be out to protect their interests just like anyone else.

It would appear that the O's are at a plateau. It is just a matter of who is going to cry uncle first.

[harry888]

I'm an OD and despise the term "optometric physician".

I went to optometry school in the mid 80's back when medical school was extremely difficult to get into, so many "settled" for dentistry, optometry, chiro, podiatry etc. So there are many frustrated physician wannabees out there.

I'm an optometrist and have a different philosophy of eyecare than a physician. If I wanted to be a physician, I would have at least applied to medical school.

Harry

[Alan W]

If you ask me (which you didn't!) I think its a marketing move. If someone thinks someone is a physician, then that someone must be a real doctor.

But, then, they had to pick something to call themselves.

I mean . . .

How'd it look if an optometrist in a small town decided to close up and take a few days off. The sign would say . . .

Vision Physician Gone Fishin!

drum role,
rim shot,
d'dum dum!

[Joann Raytar]

I feel the same way about Opticians who want to independently refract. I don't mean know how to refract and understand the process; I mean provide refraction as part of their services. Besides being hypocritical, we keep saying it is unethical for prescribers to fill their own prescriptions, it removes doctors and opticians farther away from a healthy symbiotic relationship. If the O's referred to each other to fill a patient's needs, the patient receives an automatic double check of all services preformed.

(I think that made sense.)

Harry,

:cheers:
Here's to proving that the wall between OD's and Opticians can be broken down. I am going to bet that not too many OptiBoarder's, if any, knew you were an OD and yet you have contributed great replies to a multitude of optical topics. :D

[Laurie]

Jo,

My point: The OD's don't WANT to be under medical boards and AMA...they want to be legislative business (wo)man and enjoy medical privilages without being under the AMA! It is not the MD's stopping them from the ethical change, it is themselves (legislatively speaking).

And, if we all did our specialty: MD's: pathology/surgery ONLY, OD's: refraction and CL ONLY, Opticians: spectacles and CL ONLY, I would not push any of these issues. It sounds as though you think it is OK for doctors to prescribe, and to sell, on a retail level, that which they prescribe.

Is this correct?

Laurie

PS: How do you define a healthy, symbiotic relationship?

[Homer]

Pretaining to , or characterized by symbiosis.

Symbiosis: in biology, the living together of two dissimilar organisims in close association or union, especially where this is advantageous to both, as in the case of fungus ang alga, which together from the lichen.

So, Laurie, a healthy, symbiotic relationship might be the the healthy scum of the earth living off of each other in a continuing arrangement. But maybe, Jo ment something of a higher order?;)

Laurie, you have my vote on your last comment.

In colorado, under the pressure of an interested citizen, the State Board of Optometric Examiners put out a directive to all licensees that it was not leagal to refer to themselves as optometric physicians.

One person can make a difference.

[Homer]

My family and I spent '83 through '89 based in Nairobi, Kenya.
I was training and setting up small edging facilities, usually a mission hospital compounds, in several countries on the African Continent.

Climbed Kilimanjaro twice. Visited Dodoma, Arusha, Moshi many times and ase well as Dar es Salam other less famous places.

I wish you well,

Homer

[Homer]

do you think it is possiable to separate the lens power determination process from the physical medical diagnosis of eye health?

[Joann Raytar]

Geesh Homer, wait up for me. I am going to post but I have been running around since yesterday morning and I haven't had the time to put together a response people other than myself will understand.

Laurie actually came close to saying part of what I was trying to say even though I don't think you guys knew I was trying to say it.

I will post a response tomorrow.

[Homer]

for you symbiotic explaination ;)


While there is no love lost between many OD's and OMD's, I do find it very interesting that OD's want to represent themselves at physicians. I have heard OMD's referred to as "fat cats", "over charging", "poor refractionists" by OD's. Why would they want to keep that company?

Actually I think it is a dichotomy for OD's, on one hand to pretend that they have the public health and welfare in mind when they protect their position, and then to pretend to be physicians in order to confuse the public to gain customers. The only real common thread is these two positions is pretention.

When optometry, nation-wide, acknowledges the need for professional opticianry and grants licenses to the suppliers / providers of things they says should be "prescription only" items, and gives up their merchant mentality, then we can talk about symbiotic relationships.

[Homer]

You must be really busy!

[Joann Raytar]

Laurie said:
It sounds as though you think it is OK for doctors to prescribe, and to sell, on a retail level, that which they prescribe.

I work for an OD with a dispensary. I wouldn't work for him if I felt he was doing something unethical. I have known independent opticians who lease space out to OD's and then tell them what to recommend. In my opinion, this is no more unethical. It all depends on the individuals involved.

I don't agree with OD's calling themselves "physicians." I think it is a marketing tactic and will only confuse patients more.

The symbiotic relationship I mention may never exist but it means each O defines who they are and what they do and you do it. Optometrist's refract (I don't see a problem with OD's dilating; however, punctal plugs may be going too far.), Ophthalmalogists preform surgery and related tasks and LO's fit, fabricate and dispense eyewear and CL's. This is nothing new, it is the old system where each refers to the other when necessary. We are only stepping on each other's toes because each of us wants a larger scope of practice. Unless you are a group practice, I don't think there is a value to having your hand into every aspect of the optical industry.

Homer,
If you are looking for something else - tell me. It has been a long winter and if you want something more to come out of my brain at this point, you are going to have to pick the lock.