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Thread: Light streaking through new spectacles. Even company can't solve. Please help.

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    Light streaking through new spectacles. Even company can't solve. Please help.

    My customer of 10 years has recently been facing a weird problem, which I've never seen in 22 years of my experience as an optician. He has been using Essilor Crizal brand Transitions lenses for 10 years, which he rebuilds every one or two years as his prescription changes. He has never faced a similar problem like he has been facing since the last time he got his lenses made.

    He got a Crizal UV Transitions, which he complained after 1 month that he was facing difficulty seeing at night time due to light sources streaking in a vertical way. He showed me the spectacles, but I didn't find anything unusual. I even told him it was all in his head. But once he took me out of my shop and showed me a distant lamp post with dark sky as the background, I was more than convinced. I even felt bad how inconvenient it must have been for him wearing these lenses while driving. But in the daytime, he says everything looks perfect.

    Whenever I approached Essilor about replacement, they said they couldn't find a single problem. Upon my insistence and mild threats, they replaced the lenses 'unconditionally' as they put it. But about a month later, the customer returns with the same problem. He said he used the new replacement lenses only indoors for 7 days, when there was not a single problem and the vision was perfect. But when he started taking the lens outdoors in the sun, the streaking got progressively worse with each day in the sun.

    I tried to talk to Essilor again and convince them, but they told me it's all in my head, and they couldn't find anything unusual with their rigorous testing procedures. The customer even approached Essilor, but they gave him the same reply.

    My customer threw away the lenses and got a new pair of Zeiss lenses with Photofusion made. These were thrice as expensive as the Crizal. Guess what? Within one week, exactly the same problem happened! He got a new pair of frames (he felt the frames had something to do with it) and Zeiss replaced the lenses. Within another week, the replacement lenses developed the same problem!!

    I know he is over-careful with his lenses (his previous lenses never developed a single scratch in 2 years!) and uses certified cleaners and microfibre cloth. Handling is not a problem I'm sure.

    Please help. What in the world is happening? I don't want to lose this customer. I can get him another pair made out of my pocket, but I am sure that too wouldn't even last a week!

    Details:

    The order of damage is: Left first, right next. OD: -0.75DS, -1.75DC. OS: -0.75 DS -2.00 DC. Index: 1.50. Does it have anything to do with the power?
    The customer only prefers half rim metal frames. Is it possible that the heat of Indian Summer sun is transmitted by the metal frame onto the lenses, which is crazing some coating like the SHC or AR? Well, I have never seen this happening with any other customer with metal frames.

    Please refer to the photos. These were taken by a simple mobile camera and a flashlight pointed at a perfect angle, and the hairline cracks are visible only from the backside. But company says they never see such cracks with their machines. Other opticians say the AR coating is absolutely fine. am totally perplexed and have started to doubt my sanity, and need your kind advise.

    Crizal Lens. Notice the top left side.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P_20170519_040600_p.jpg 
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ID:	13368

    This is how it looks at night though the affected spectacles:


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DISTORTION_zps2rgwntyt.jpg 
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ID:	13369

    Zeiss Lens:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P_20170628_215609_1_p.jpg 
Views:	81 
Size:	42.0 KB 
ID:	13370


    Close up views:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_l...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_l...ew?usp=sharing

    These cracks are visible from such a stupid angle that I have a hard time convincing anyone.
    Last edited by debayandas; 06-28-2017 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Added pictures

  2. #2
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Is it the coating?

    What's the material?

    Adherence?

    Does he work?

    Have any noxious hobbies?

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Java99's Avatar
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    I think this is a consumer, but that is stress fracturing. Too much chuck pressure, string strung too tight or too much flexing during mounting, or chemical exposure. Have seen this happen with chemical exposure at high altitude as well (glasses and chemicals in a pilot's flight bag.)

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    I have been having problems with Transition AR lenses. It started with Trivex but I have also seen it happen on poly, both stock and surfaced. Not yet on plastic, but I wonder if the grooved plastic may be under too much pressure?

    In my experiences, the problem starts after exposure to heat from the hot box, or whatever heat source is used for adjusting. With this being a metal groove, I'm assuming the lenses haven't been exposed to direct heat, but possibly from being left in a car or in the direct sun?

    In both of the cases, I saw a similar 'crazing' effect. The solution for me was to make sure the lenses didn't get exposed to heat, and I haven't heard from those patients since.

    I hope this helps! Good luck!
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Is it the coating?

    What's the material?

    Adherence?

    Does he work?

    Have any noxious hobbies?
    Thank you for the answer.

    I can ask him about his work, but noxious hobbies? I know Barbecue and cooking can be a problem. I can ask him about it tomorrow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    I think this is a consumer, but that is stress fracturing. Too much chuck pressure, string strung too tight or too much flexing during mounting, or chemical exposure. Have seen this happen with chemical exposure at high altitude as well (glasses and chemicals in a pilot's flight bag.)
    Thanks, but is it possible that stress fracturing is caused by expanding metal frames?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    I have been having problems with Transition AR lenses. It started with Trivex but I have also seen it happen on poly, both stock and surfaced. Not yet on plastic, but I wonder if the grooved plastic may be under too much pressure?

    In my experiences, the problem starts after exposure to heat from the hot box, or whatever heat source is used for adjusting. With this being a metal groove, I'm assuming the lenses haven't been exposed to direct heat, but possibly from being left in a car or in the direct sun?

    In both of the cases, I saw a similar 'crazing' effect. The solution for me was to make sure the lenses didn't get exposed to heat, and I haven't heard from those patients since.

    I hope this helps! Good luck!
    Thanks! I asked him about leaving the glasses on the dash, but he said something along the lines of with my strong prescription, my glasses are plastered to my face all day. :P

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debayandas View Post
    Thanks! I asked him about leaving the glasses on the dash, but he said something along the lines of with my strong prescription, my glasses are plastered to my face all day. :P
    Makes sense. I'd say its got to be between that and pressure. Has he tried different materials or without transitions? At least for a nighttime pair maybe.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    It looks like heat or chemical crazing to me, could also be mounting stress - though usually I see that in the middle 90 degree area of the lens.

  10. #10
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    I guess chemical crazing wouldn't be so directionally linear.

    It would be easy to tell if these lenses are in there too tight with the old-wiggle-a-little test.

    How about polycarbonate lenses and dishwater dull blades and a choppy groove?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    I think this is a consumer,
    I wish I were the consumer. They have the liberty of saying anything. The first time when I told him it's all in your head, he retaliated by saying, it's in my head too that you gave me a fake pair of glasses. Man, I was furious, and I wanted to yell, but you know, business matters first and I ate my words up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    Makes sense. I'd say its got to be between that and pressure. Has he tried different materials or without transitions? At least for a nighttime pair maybe.
    Not sure, at least not from my outlet. He always gets UV and photochromic. I can ask him about that too if he tried simple AR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    It looks like heat or chemical crazing to me, could also be mounting stress - though usually I see that in the middle 90 degree area of the lens.
    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I guess chemical crazing wouldn't be so directionally linear.

    It would be easy to tell if these lenses are in there too tight with the old-wiggle-a-little test.
    The company mounted the lenses. I'll check them tomorrow if he comes.

    I'm beginning to fear he works in a chemical lab or something.

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    are the lines along the cyl axis?
    High heat and tight lens will have an affect on this. I had a roofer come in with issues like this, gave him lenses with no ar on it .. That fixed it on his work pair then sold a "dress" pair with ar

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Holy moly, this is not normal at all.

    Based on the history you provided, the high heat in your region is not to blame. You stated that he has worn this combination for 10 years without issue. At first, before I saw the pictures, I was thinking that your patient had longer than average eyelashes and that the new frame was fitting closer than his previous pairs. The constant rubbing of lashes along the backside of an AR coated lens will create this anomaly, as human hair is very coarse. This would make sense if during the first week, nothing was wrong. And then in a month's time these symptoms surface. Your pictures, however, do not match my hypothesis. Maybe its just the resolution of the pics? I would still look at the frame fit and adjust it away from his eye about 1 or 2mm, just in case.

    Peeps, don't laugh, I've seen many cases where this was the cause and solution, primarily with mascara wearing ladies.

    Anyway, debyandas, I would look carefully at the fit and make those adjustments with the new set of lenses.

    As for material, CR39 is pretty forgiving, unless the CT is below 1.8, and that will induce flex. They generally are not as sensitive to sizing or grooving irregularities as compared to other materials. I believe Poly and Trivex would exacerbate the situation, but 1.6 may be an option.

    The UV AR is basically the same stack as a regular AR. The only difference is that the UV AR is designed not to reflect UV back into the eye from the backside. The Transitions will block the rest of the UV from the front. Zeiss, Essilor, Hoya, and others will dip coat their premium AR, and all are high quality. The difference is in the Hydro and their distinct recipes. I would not blame the coating at all.

    Another thought, has your patient changed jobs since his previous pair? Chemical reaction may also be causing the issue. Even indirect exposure in the form of aerosol contact can degrade coatings in due time. He may not be in constant contact with chemicals, but as a lead or in a supervisory position, he may be exposed to this with even thinking about it.

    Just a few things to consider.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter rdcoach5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debayandas View Post
    My customer of 10 years has recently been facing a weird problem, which I've never seen in 22 years of my experience as an optician. He has been using Essilor Crizal brand Transitions lenses for 10 years, which he rebuilds every one or two years as his prescription changes. He has never faced a similar problem like he has been facing since the last time he got his lenses made.

    He got a Crizal UV Transitions, which he complained after 1 month that he was facing difficulty seeing at night time due to light sources streaking in a vertical way. He showed me the spectacles, but I didn't find anything unusual. I even told him it was all in his head. But once he took me out of my shop and showed me a distant lamp post with dark sky as the background, I was more than convinced. I even felt bad how inconvenient it must have been for him wearing these lenses while driving. But in the daytime, he says everything looks perfect.

    Whenever I approached Essilor about replacement, they said they couldn't find a single problem. Upon my insistence and mild threats, they replaced the lenses 'unconditionally' as they put it. But about a month later, the customer returns with the same problem. He said he used the new replacement lenses only indoors for 7 days, when there was not a single problem and the vision was perfect. But when he started taking the lens outdoors in the sun, the streaking got progressively worse with each day in the sun.

    I tried to talk to Essilor again and convince them, but they told me it's all in my head, and they couldn't find anything unusual with their rigorous testing procedures. The customer even approached Essilor, but they gave him the same reply.

    My customer threw away the lenses and got a new pair of Zeiss lenses with Photofusion made. These were thrice as expensive as the Crizal. Guess what? Within one week, exactly the same problem happened! He got a new pair of frames (he felt the frames had something to do with it) and Zeiss replaced the lenses. Within another week, the replacement lenses developed the same problem!!

    I know he is over-careful with his lenses (his previous lenses never developed a single scratch in 2 years!) and uses certified cleaners and microfibre cloth. Handling is not a problem I'm sure.

    Please help. What in the world is happening? I don't want to lose this customer. I can get him another pair made out of my pocket, but I am sure that too wouldn't even last a week!

    Details:

    The order of damage is: Left first, right next. OD: -0.75DS, -1.75DC. OS: -0.75 DS -2.00 DC. Index: 1.50. Does it have anything to do with the power?
    The customer only prefers half rim metal frames. Is it possible that the heat of Indian Summer sun is transmitted by the metal frame onto the lenses, which is crazing some coating like the SHC or AR? Well, I have never seen this happening with any other customer with metal frames.

    Please refer to the photos. These were taken by a simple mobile camera and a flashlight pointed at a perfect angle, and the hairline cracks are visible only from the backside. But company says they never see such cracks with their machines. Other opticians say the AR coating is absolutely fine. am totally perplexed and have started to doubt my sanity, and need your kind advise.

    Crizal Lens. Notice the top left side.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P_20170519_040600_p.jpg 
Views:	96 
Size:	39.7 KB 
ID:	13368

    This is how it looks at night though the affected spectacles:


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DISTORTION_zps2rgwntyt.jpg 
Views:	83 
Size:	32.6 KB 
ID:	13369

    Zeiss Lens:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	P_20170628_215609_1_p.jpg 
Views:	81 
Size:	42.0 KB 
ID:	13370


    Close up views:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_l...ew?usp=sharing

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_l...ew?usp=sharing

    These cracks are visible from such a stupid angle that I have a hard time convincing anyone.

    Looks like a similar complaint from one of my patients years ago. He also only saw the reflection at night. I will look up the particulars but I remember that the orig material had unpolished fining marks consistently with every lens tried until we switched him to CR-39 or trivex, I don't remember which. The bottom line, though was that the final successful material did NOT have the unpolished fining marks which were clearly visible in the slit lamp

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    Quote Originally Posted by JrFuel186n View Post
    are the lines along the cyl axis?
    High heat and tight lens will have an affect on this. I had a roofer come in with issues like this, gave him lenses with no ar on it .. That fixed it on his work pair then sold a "dress" pair with ar
    Very good suggestion; eliminating the cause of the streaks. But I doubt he'll buy to that, mainly because of his high cylinder causing more reflections.

    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Holy moly, this is not normal at all.

    Based on the history you provided, the high heat in your region is not to blame. You stated that he has worn this combination for 10 years without issue. At first, before I saw the pictures, I was thinking that your patient had longer than average eyelashes and that the new frame was fitting closer than his previous pairs. .

    Quote Originally Posted by rdcoach5 View Post
    Looks like a similar complaint from one of my patients years ago. He also only saw the reflection at night. I will look up the particulars but I remember that the orig material had unpolished fining marks consistently with every lens tried until we switched him to CR-39 or trivex, I don't remember which. The bottom line, though was that the final successful material did NOT have the unpolished fining marks which were clearly visible in the slit lamp


    I called him around and told him I opened a thread 'in the internet forum' for suggestions.

    The first thing I checked was the eyelashes, but the lenses being in metal frames with nosepads, they were placed well away from his eyelashes even when the frames are well-seated. Also I rechecked his lenses today. The cracks are more dense and around the corners and on the nose sides, along the metals of the frame. It's almost non-noticeable in the lower halves of the lenses. He told the streaks are worst along his nose, getting progressively better outwards. I put a laser pointer through the lenses and the dot streaks into two vertical 'beams' where the cracks are.

    And I was secretly wishing he worked at a chemical factory or lab or something to finally find an explain for all this and get myself out of all this, but it turns out he is a banker and the only thing that changed is his prescription.

    About chemical exposure, he said that's only tap water and the certified lens cleaner that we sell; nothing else. We've been selling this alcohol free surfactant based cleaner for 5 years, without problems.

    When I asked him about cooking, he said he knows very well steam is bad for AR (Heat, okay, but steam?? Even I didn't know that!).

    I emphasized him about heat. He said the only known heat exposure is sunlight when he commutes to work.

    The lenses do not wiggle, but fit in the frame just okay. No wiggle room. I wanted to loosen the thread by a milimetre like you said, but I feared it'd cause the lens to pop out.

    Please advise.

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    Which type of frame causes least stress fractures? Acetate/Poly/Metal full rimmed/Metal Half rimmed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by debayandas View Post
    Which type of frame causes least stress fractures? Acetate/Poly/Metal full rimmed/Metal Half rimmed?
    Honestly any of those can cause them, it has much more to do with the lenses being sized too large or the bevel curve and frame curve being very different.

  19. #19
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    It's 1.5 CR39 in a semi-rimless, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    It's 1.5 CR39 in a semi-rimless, right?
    Yes. The last one is Zeiss Duravision Platinum with PF. 1.5 INDEX CR39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallboy View Post
    Honestly any of those can cause them, it has much more to do with the lenses being sized too large or the bevel curve and frame curve being very different.
    Yes, that is what distresses me. Two companies making wrong edging 4 times!

  22. #22
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    That's very unlikely. This is very mysterious.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by debayandas View Post
    Yes. The last one is Zeiss Duravision Platinum with PF. 1.5 INDEX CR39.
    From the pics you posted, the Z engraving suggest that this was a FSVAR. Most of the Zeiss FSV is produced in Mexico. I'm sure that the DV Platinum on the FSV is thermal cured, but I don't think they have the primer layer like the surfaced lenses. The only suggestion, and I am now out of suggestions, is to request a surfaced pair to be thermal coated with a primer layer, then coated with the DV Platinum. My experience with the DV Platinum has been outstanding.

    If you have in-house edging capabilities, another option is to order FSVAR in T7 from Younger. Their Premium AR, though not Zeiss or Crizal branded, is very durable and very easy to clean. This way, you have full control on sizing and QC. From a cost perspective, I order FSVAR in 1.67, and Trivex from Younger. The rest, I order from Zeiss. I can't surface and AR coat SV for less, considering labor and consumable costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    I think this is a consumer, but that is stress fracturing. Too much chuck pressure, string strung too tight or too much flexing during mounting, or chemical exposure. Have seen this happen with chemical exposure at high altitude as well (glasses and chemicals in a pilot's flight bag.)

    Can you expand on this point a bit Java? I have a commercial pilot who has come back with horizontal crazing in his AR every 6 months for the last 3 years. Its unbelievable, and neither he nor I can figure out what is going on. Always the same crazing evenly spaced horizontal lines. On CR39 transitions with AR, have used Crizal Avance among other ARs. Driving me a little nuts lol. He is a very honest guy and knows I just want to figure the issue, I've never thought about Altitude before, can you help?

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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Wow! We're getting somewhere now!

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