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Thread: If you thought Opternative was bad enough...

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    your slippery slope .....................

    ...............is actually practised all over the world. In European countries any optician that advances to a master optician refracts, and in most countries there is no charge if you purchase the glasses from them, or is included in the glasses price.
    Yes, but this is one of the reasons the public is moving to online vendors. They want to avoid the built-in charges that retailers tack on for "good service". The other reason is....convenience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Yes, but this is one of the reasons the public is moving to online vendors. They want to avoid the built-in charges that retailers tack on for "good service". The other reason is....convenience.
    People want cheap. People want choices. People want to shop in their underwear. Overall value is lost in the cyber economy. Value is no longer equated with getting quality of service and products, but is equated to how little one paid. I get the convenience of ship to door, but there is nothing convenient about a poorly fit pair of specs. And those that purchase their specs on-line will expect to have them serviced by you at no charge, because they aren't willing to pay for the service. If they were, they would have purchased from you.

    I'm guilty of purchasing many of my durable goods online for the price and ship to door. However, if the product is defective, the return process and/or resolution can be very aggravating. F2F at a BnM is much less aggravating, especially if purchased at a reputable company like REI, Nordstrom or the now defunct Penn Camera. And yes, Amazon, Adorama, B&H all contributed to their demise. Penn Camera was a great place to shop due to their highly knowledgeable staff. Being able to hold the product, try it out, and talk with a group of professionals and enthusiasts, all in a low pressure environment was worth shelling out a few extra bucks. They are gone, along with most of their kind. Brick and Mortar opticals will start to follow. Sad.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    People want cheap. People want choices. People want to shop in their underwear. Overall value is lost in the cyber economy. Value is no longer equated with getting quality of service and products, but is equated to how little one paid. I get the convenience of ship to door, but there is nothing convenient about a poorly fit pair of specs. And those that purchase their specs on-line will expect to have them serviced by you at no charge, because they aren't willing to pay for the service. If they were, they would have purchased from you.

    I'm guilty of purchasing many of my durable goods online for the price and ship to door. However, if the product is defective, the return process and/or resolution can be very aggravating. F2F at a BnM is much less aggravating, especially if purchased at a reputable company like REI, Nordstrom or the now defunct Penn Camera. And yes, Amazon, Adorama, B&H all contributed to their demise. Penn Camera was a great place to shop due to their highly knowledgeable staff. Being able to hold the product, try it out, and talk with a group of professionals and enthusiasts, all in a low pressure environment was worth shelling out a few extra bucks. They are gone, along with most of their kind. Brick and Mortar opticals will start to follow. Sad.
    Funny,.... I don't think of B&H as an online store. Have you ever been to their B and M store in NYC? It's quite a marvel to behold. Big...Overhead conveyor belts, bells and whistles. Dozens and dozens of salesmen on the floor bumping into you. I never buy from B&H online. I always go to the store to see what ever I am buying, out of the box, demonstrated by very knowledgeable sales people, comparison shop....but that's me. Besides, there is a great diner across the street.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    Funny,.... I don't think of B&H as an online store. Have you ever been to their B and M store in NYC? It's quite a marvel to behold. Big...Overhead conveyor belts, bells and whistles. Dozens and dozens of salesmen on the floor bumping into you. I never buy from B&H online. I always go to the store to see what ever I am buying, out of the box, demonstrated by very knowledgeable sales people, comparison shop....but that's me. Besides, there is a great diner across the street.
    I don't have the luxury of living in New York, so for me, it is an online store. I did stop purchasing from them several of years ago due to their labor practices, especially at their warehouses. A shame, really, to treat your employees so poorly.
    https://petapixel.com/2016/02/27/bh-...the-us-gvrmnt/
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/29/us/bh-...uit/index.html

    Yes, digressing from the thread, but thought I would share this.

  5. #55
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    Blue Jumper ...........and if the B&M stores do not adapt, they will go the way of the Dinosaurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post

    People want cheap. People want choices. People want to shop in their underwear. Overall value is lost in the cyber economy. Value is no longer equated with getting quality of service and products, but is equated to how little one paid. I get the convenience of ship to door, but there is nothing convenient about a poorly fit pair of specs. And those that purchase their specs on-line will expect to have them serviced by you at no charge, because they aren't willing to pay for the service. If they were, they would have purchased from you.

    I'm guilty of purchasing many of my durable goods online for the price and ship to door.

    There is that very simple solution that will work....................

    Sell the glasses at somewhere around the wholesale level and charge for services, item by item. The better qualified optician you are the more cash your services are and will be worth.

    The conventional optical dispensing store and their pricing will soon be a way of the past.

    The Lenscrafters stores are all closing their onsite labs, and are keeping qualified opticians that will service the products that the biggest online opticals, over 20 of them that belong to the same owners, are selling over the internet.

    ...........and if the B&M stores do not adapt, they will go the way of the Dinosaurs.

  6. #56
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    Redhot Jumper See post in the Warby Parker thread..............would apply here too.

    See post in the Warby Parker thread..............would apply here too.

  7. #57
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    I think, whether we on a personal or professional level like it or not, online and auto-refracted glasses rxes are coming, whether we like it or not. Yes those rxes will be subpar to subjective refraction. Yes, symptoms of devastating eye diseases will be missed. The future is here, and as a whole, opticians and ODs and OMDs should find a way to work together, if the best interest of the bespectacled public is at the heart of the issue. If the heart of the issue lies elsewhere, it's a business discussion and not a healthcare discussion.

    Personally, I think the "free eye exam with glasses purchase" opened the door for this. When you devalue a service, it actually does lose its real and perceived value.

    For the record, I don't like or dislike that this is coming. It just is, and we all have to adapt, until it is squashed on the legal field, or incorporated into daily life. I dread some of the auto-generated rxes that will come through the door, and I dread having a retail salesperson explain the symptoms of glaucoma to someone who just got bad news way later than they could have, had they had a medical eye exam. I dread the kid whose auto-refracted results are +.50 but needs a +4.00. But I also see an easier way to get a refraction for many, many people.
    Last edited by Java99; 06-15-2017 at 07:28 PM.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    I think, whether we on a personal or professional level, online and auto-refracted glasses rxes are coming, whether we like it or not. Yes those rxes will be subpar to objective refraction. Yes, symptoms of devastating eye diseases will be missed. The future is here, and as a whole, opticians and ODs and OMDs should find a way to work together, if the best interest of the bespectacled public is at the heart of the issue. If the heart of the issue lies elsewhere, it's a business discussion and not a healthcare discussion.

    Personally, I think the "free eye exam with glasses purchase" opened the door for this. When you devalue a service, it actually does lose its real and perceived value.

    For the record, I don't like or dislike that this is coming. It just is, and we all have to adapt, until it is squashed on the legal field, or incorporated into daily life. I dread some of the auto-generated rxes that will come through the door, and I dread having a retail salesperson explain the symptoms of glaucoma to someone who just got bad news way later than they could have, had they had a medical eye exam. I dread the kid whose auto-refracted results are +.50 but needs a +4.00. But I also see an easier way to get a refraction for many, many people.
    Hey now this is the internet! Take your level headed well thought out response somewhere else! /S
    I completely agree with you for what its worth.

  9. #59
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    Redhot Jumper practise of free eye testing by opticians is world wide ..................

    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post

    Personally, I think the "free eye exam with glasses purchase" opened the door for this. When you devalue a service, it actually does lose its real and perceived value.

    You should not forget that this practise of free eye testing by opticians is world wide, with the exception of North America, so you are unique in the opposite way.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    I don't have the luxury of living in New York, so for me, it is an online store. I did stop purchasing from them several of years ago due to their labor practices, especially at their warehouses. A shame, really, to treat your employees so poorly.
    https://petapixel.com/2016/02/27/bh-...the-us-gvrmnt/
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/02/29/us/bh-...uit/index.html

    Yes, digressing from the thread, but thought I would share this.
    Interesting. Good to know.

  11. #61
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    Blue Jumper having a business that gets unionized, can make the employees become the dictators

    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post

    Interesting. Good to know.

    Not so good to know, because having a business that gets unionized, can make the employees become the dictators, and run you out of business.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    I think, whether we on a personal or professional level like it or not, online and auto-refracted glasses rxes are coming, whether we like it or not. Yes those rxes will be subpar to subjective refraction. Yes, symptoms of devastating eye diseases will be missed. The future is here, and as a whole, opticians and ODs and OMDs should find a way to work together, if the best interest of the bespectacled public is at the heart of the issue. If the heart of the issue lies elsewhere, it's a business discussion and not a healthcare discussion.

    Personally, I think the "free eye exam with glasses purchase" opened the door for this. When you devalue a service, it actually does lose its real and perceived value.

    For the record, I don't like or dislike that this is coming. It just is, and we all have to adapt, until it is squashed on the legal field, or incorporated into daily life. I dread some of the auto-generated rxes that will come through the door, and I dread having a retail salesperson explain the symptoms of glaucoma to someone who just got bad news way later than they could have, had they had a medical eye exam. I dread the kid whose auto-refracted results are +.50 but needs a +4.00. But I also see an easier way to get a refraction for many, many people.

    "Yes those rxes will be subpar to subjective refraction."

    What would make you say that?

    http://www.laramyk.com/blog/self-ref...dence-sort-of/

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by John@OWDC View Post
    "Yes those rxes will be subpar to subjective refraction."

    What would make you say that?

    http://www.laramyk.com/blog/self-ref...dence-sort-of/
    You know, I shouldn't have said that. It was an assumption based on not much that's relevant anymore. I am going to do the opternative exam tonight and see how it goes. I am way overdue for an exam, and the results will be especially interesting as I am to turn 40 in a week or so.

    I remember reading that article earlier this year. Food for thought, for sure.

  14. #64
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    It's one thing to employ objective objective and subjective refraction techniques....automated or manual. Sometimes one works better, then sometimes the other does.

    Prescribing is something else altogether.

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    Blue Jumper It just is, and we all have to adapt, until it is squashed on the legal field,.......

    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post

    For the record, I don't like or dislike that this is coming. It just is, and we all have to adapt, until it is squashed on the legal field, or incorporated into daily life. I dread some of the auto-generated rxes that will come through the door, and I dread having a retail salesperson explain the symptoms of glaucoma to someone who just got bad news way later than they could have, had they had a medical eye exam.
    It will never get squashed in the legal field..............

    The world over opticians refract, except in North America. However they have learned how to do it, and passed the exams needed, including medical problems to be forwarded to an Ophthalmologist.

    The optical online retail industry is pushing it ahead at double speed.

    So tighten your optical seat belts, as it will become a bumpy ride in the near future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    You know, I shouldn't have said that. It was an assumption based on not much that's relevant anymore. I am going to do the opternative exam tonight and see how it goes. I am way overdue for an exam, and the results will be especially interesting as I am to turn 40 in a week or so.

    I remember reading that article earlier this year. Food for thought, for sure.

    Java99

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

    Good for you!

    Please share your Opternative experience with us when you get back.

    John

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post
    It's one thing to employ objective objective and subjective refraction techniques....automated or manual. Sometimes one works better, then sometimes the other does.

    Prescribing is something else altogether.
    Nobody gets that, except people who do this for a living.

    Everyone seems to be an expert on vision care. But not the ones that actually do vision care...they're just money-grubbing obstructionists.

    Enjoy The Fantasy, people.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    It will never get squashed in the legal field..............

    The world over opticians refract, except in North America. However they have learned how to do it, and passed the exams needed, including medical problems to be forwarded to an Ophthalmologist.

    The optical online retail industry is pushing it ahead at double speed.

    So tighten your optical seat belts, as it will become a bumpy ride in the near future.
    Chris, our standards of vision care kick the living crap out of the UK or Europe. It's a fact.

    So don't hold it out as apples-to-apples.

    If we followed Europe's lead, we will actually have to reduce our standards.

    So, it's not desirable.


    Nevertheless, in the frenzy for unregulated/easier/DIY/cheap vision care, some will opt for a reduction of standards. That is a choice, these days. "Fake care". "Self-care". "Real care".


    But it's not a good thing, all-in-all. Regulated "real care" is the best model, hands down.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Chris, our standards of vision care kick the living crap out of the UK or Europe. It's a fact.

    So don't hold it out as apples-to-apples.

    If we followed Europe's lead, we will actually have to reduce our standards.
    Dr. K

    You hit the nail squarely on the head. We can, and do, pi$$ and moan all we want but the fact is our health care in the US is second to none.

    How many Americans "ROTC" (Run Over To Canada) for their health care? How many Americans go to England, France or Germany for their health care?

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    Redhot Jumper Regulated "real care" is the best model, hands down.........................

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post

    Regulated "real care" is the best model, hands down.


    drk..................you got a good point, but...........................


    You give top care as a professional..............then hand the Rx to your patient who wants to purchase wherever.

    In the USA half the States are not even regulated for the sellers of the end result = the glasses.

    In Canada 2 Provinces are now officially deregulated, and the 3rd one (Ontario) is not far behind of getting there.

  21. #71
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    Deregulation, so far, is an attempt to steal business from regulated "markets".

    If deregulation becomes universal then the scorched-earth nature of their callow policy will be evident: short term gain and long term loss.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post


    Nevertheless, in the frenzy for unregulated/easier/DIY/cheap vision care, some will opt for a reduction of standards. That is a choice, these days. "Fake care". "Self-care". "Real care".


    But it's not a good thing, all-in-all. Regulated "real care" is the best model, hands down.
    For the record, I agree with you. Regulated care is the best model. Maybe a few months ago I would have thought that most people who need glasses and contacts would agree with you.

    I don't think so anymore. I think many people want cheap and convenient unless they have a proven need to choose otherwise or have a specific "want" to fill. I think people feel there has been so much regulation that they feel is unnecessary that they fail to see how a lot of regulations provide necessary protections. People won't "get it" until they start to suffer. Sad.

    That being said, I think there is room to separate the eye exam from refraction. Medicare has for years. Europe has for years. Consumers want this. Opticians want this. Large corporations with dollars to spend on lobbyists want this. There is a group within the Optician's Association of America developing a refraction course. States like NC are losing federal lawsuits over internet dispensing, which will eventually take the teeth out of all the state dispensing regulations. I think that's going to set the precedent for refractions. Good or bad, the future is here.

  23. #73
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    Got my Opternative rx. Both my husband and I did the test. I provided my written current rx to them, he did not. Our tests were different. He has more cyl and an add; I don't have an add, but we are both up there in sphere. He got an email this morning saying they could not proceed without his old written rx. I got my new rx just now. Will be a few days before I can wear it, I don't stock lenses this high and will have to order.

    Old - OD -7.00 OS -6.00 -1.50 x37
    New OD -7.25 OS -6.50 -1.50 x37

    Sounds about right. Distance hasn't been great lately. It's been 2 years. If it's terrible, I will post back, but I bet it will be fine. It did come with big suggestions to get an eye health exam, FWIW.

  24. #74
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    #1: Is the avatar your daughter?
    #2: You're right, people are in a frenzy. They will have to learn the hard way.
    #3: You're wrong about separating "refraction" (a misunderstood concept right there) and "eye exam". That's a bad understanding, and I could explain it, again.
    #4: Medicare has nothing to do with it. That's way off base.
    #5. The future is not here. We have some way to go.
    #6. What consumers want matters a lot at a steakhouse. Less so at a critical cardiac care unit. We're somewhere on that continuum, but let's not overstate it. Patients are clueless on this issue.
    #7. You include a lot of conjecture/prognostication. We'll see.
    Last edited by drk; 06-28-2017 at 03:39 PM.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Java99 View Post
    Got my Opternative rx. Both my husband and I did the test. I provided my written current rx to them, he did not. Our tests were different. He has more cyl and an add; I don't have an add, but we are both up there in sphere. He got an email this morning saying they could not proceed without his old written rx. I got my new rx just now. Will be a few days before I can wear it, I don't stock lenses this high and will have to order.

    Old - OD -7.00 OS -6.00 -1.50 x37
    New OD -7.25 OS -6.50 -1.50 x37

    Sounds about right. Distance hasn't been great lately. It's been 2 years. If it's terrible, I will post back, but I bet it will be fine. It did come with big suggestions to get an eye health exam, FWIW.
    Pretty damn amazing they got your cyl axis exactly as before. Not! Sounds like they can't do jack squat without piggybacking on a real ODs old work! I could read your case history, have your old SpRx, and add the proverbial "1/2 D more minus". Garbage.

    Now, as I said, if your avatar is a reflection of your age, you are far from presbyopia. But what if you bump up your minus a 1/2D OU and you're, say, 41? Does Dr. Opternative consider your near vision? Consider how long you want to keep these glasses (surely you wear contact lenses) and plan for the future with a starter PAL (or at least a digital "eyestrain" design)?

    Did Dr. Opternative offer you a better binocular experience by recommending FFSV lenses what with that unilateral cyl?

    Garbage.
    Last edited by drk; 06-28-2017 at 03:38 PM.

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