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Thread: Can a patient have a PD? (not a question)

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    OptiBoard Professional Kujiradesu's Avatar
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    Can a patient have a PD? (not a question)

    Was noodling around on the NJ Optometrist licensing page (which I've never been to and stumbled across this in the FAQ:

    "Is an optometrist required to include the "pupillary distance" on an eyeglass prescription?
    No. An optometrist is not required to include the interpupillary distance and height segment measurements on an eyeglass prescription.
    In the past all spectacle lenses were made of the same index of refraction (density), same center, edge thickness and the same style. All of the patients facial anatomical measurements were taken with a millimeter ruler at the time of the eye examination. With the explosion of new frame designs, lens materials and technologies, the old measurement system is no longer remotely adequate. Proper placement of the appropriate aspect of the lens in front of the patients pupil is critically important for today's technologically more advanced spectacle lense and frame materials. Special instrumentation and devices are required to ensure the prescription lenses will function properly for the patient. The measurements must be made relative to the eyeglass frame selected. Therefore, the patient must be measured by the seller and/or the dispenser of the eyeglass frame. The optometrist cannot assume any responsibility for the proper prescription being misplaced in front of the pupil due to the configuration of the frame, the lens style or material chosen by the patient. Not all lenses are created equal and there are many technological differences.
    Pupillary distance, "PD", refers to the measured distance between the patients pupils, and is taken for at least far and near viewing distances. Today's lenses require precise horizontal and vertical placement of the lens selected by the patient. These measurements are effected by the lens and frame shape, size and use (driving, computer or reading) of the prescription. Therefore, the patient must be measured by the seller and/or dispenser of the eyeglass frame.
    Segment height, bifocal, trifocal or progressive lenses, refers to the height or placement of the near viewing (intermediate or reading portion) of the lens. Most lens manufacturers have a fitting guide to ensure the lens is positioned for maximum viewing efficiency with minimum of peripheral distortion. Therefore, the patient must be measured by the seller and the dispenser of the eyeglass frame."
    I dont work for an Optometrist directly, but I thought this explanation was descriptive and accurate. However, when a patient comes into our optical and asks for their PD (*cough* Warby *cough* Parker *cough*) our company says that we have to give them a copy of the PD we have on file. I'm not doing that anymore.

    EDIT: I mean I'm willing to do whatever to keep my patients coming back. Including giving them a PD, but how to monetize and make certain that the eyewear at the end of the rainbow is correct and does the job?
    Last edited by Kujiradesu; 04-16-2017 at 01:53 PM.
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    Redhot Jumper With the ever increasing size, and of new online optical retailers on the market.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kujiradesu View Post
    I don't work for an Optometrist directly, but I thought this explanation was descriptive and accurate. However, when a patient comes into our optical and asks for their PD (*cough* Warby *cough* Parker *cough*) our company says that we have to give them a copy of the PD we have on file. I'm not doing that anymore.
    With the ever increasing size, and of new online optical retailers on the market, who can not take those needed measurements, and rely on their customers to supply them, from wherever they can get it, the problem will get solved soon.

    The optician is the natural person to take those measurement, because it is part of his/her professional training. However many of them will refuse to to take these measurement without the consumer making the purchase from them.

    To refuse to take these measurement is the initiator of the race to develop and supply instruments that will take these measurments automatically and they will be available at any time soon.

    It would be so easy to just make a charge to the consumer for the service of giving out these measurements..
    Chris Ryser
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    OptiBoard Professional Kujiradesu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post

    To refuse to take these measurement is the initiator of the race to develop and supply instruments that will take these measurments automatically and they will be available at any time soon.

    It would be so easy to just make a charge to the consumer for the service of giving out these measurements..

    Ok. I concede, the marketplace has been/is changing in this regard. If someone walks in and wants a PD what should you charge? $25? I mean most consumers will balk at any price, so what's a reasonable price? How do you measure a seg accurately when you don't have a frame? Im honestly asking, because I have seen some of these measuring systems: their measurements leave much to be desired and are often wrong.
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    OptiBoardaholic lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujiradesu View Post
    Ok. I concede, the marketplace has been/is changing in this regard. If someone walks in and wants a PD what should you charge? $25? I mean most consumers will balk at any price, so what's a reasonable price? How do you measure a seg accurately when you don't have a frame? Im honestly asking, because I have seen some of these measuring systems: their measurements leave much to be desired and are often wrong.
    And this opens another can of worms. If the optician takes the incorrect measurement, and based on your question "How do you measure a seg accurately when you don't have a frame", where does the optician's liability start and end? If the PD is incorrect, or the SH is incorrect, can the patient that was charged for this service hold that optician liable for the redo? According to most states' tort laws, yes.

    We all know that in our established businesses, redos are part of our cost analysis and pricing. Online retailers generally do not have these redo guarantees. RX off, tough luck. POW off, tough luck. POW measured and provided by an optician, the online retailer will still say tough luck, but the consumer now has a recourse if they were charged a fee for this service. Something to consider for everyone out there providing these fees for services rendered.

    My 2¢

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    Master OptiBoarder RIMLESS's Avatar
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    Yep. Just tell them to download an app to take their PD. The horse has left the barn.
    90% of everything is crap...except for crap, because crap is 100% crap

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    OptiBoard Professional Kujiradesu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIMLESS View Post
    Yep. Just tell them to download an app to take their PD. The horse has left the barn.
    I mean, yeah, can't argue much with that.

    However, its one thing to just throw up your hands and say let a computer do it for you, and its another to turn that person into a paying customer. I guess thats really what this thread is about, how do you take a person who walks through your door with a preconceived notion about what eyecare is and jiu-jutsu them into believing that what we can do for them has worth (and not make them think that all you care about is $_$). Online retailers can make a pair of eyeglasses, but an app wont adjust your frame, or verify that your prescription is correct, or any of the other things that an optician can bring to the table that an online place just cant. What I'm saying is its not only about do/don't give the PD.
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    Blue Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Kujiradesu View Post

    However, its one thing to just throw up your hands and say let a computer do it for you, and its another to turn that person into a paying customer. I guess thats really what this thread is about, how do you take a person who walks through your door with a preconceived notion about what eyecare is and jiu-jitsu them into believing that what we can do for them has worth (and not make them think that all you care about is $_$).

    There have always been the odd price cutter optician in every larger town on this earth. You could always justify their existence by claiming that they would supply lesser quality or service, or both.

    However these days when the two largest and richest optical top quality manufacturing corporations worldwide are the owners, and operators of the largest part of online retailers, the old argument is not working anymore.

    They are hammering away by advertising their products on any good and high ranking website on the internet, over every continent.

    These corporations do not undertake any major spreading of their markets without any in depths studies, before they invest hundreds of millions of dollars in the future.

    The conventional optical retail market is visibly changing course. The only question is, how long will it take until this change is being felt physically by the small corner retailer.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Somewhat off-topic, but there are a few lens and prescription combinations where an accurate IPD is not essential. However, when it is essential, it comes with a whole lot of baggage that must also be measured, along with additional fitting/optical concerns that must also be addressed to achieve optimal results.

    Caveat emptor.
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    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIMLESS View Post
    Yep. Just tell them to download an app to take their PD. The horse has left the barn.
    This is the answer.

    If a patient says "I'm ordering glasses online" I say, "Well, if you're a do-it-yourself-optician, more power to you. We don't get involved in that" and we simply move on.

  10. #10
    What's up? drk's Avatar
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    Think about it.

    We are in the business of making glasses.

    Not in the business of helping other people make glasses.

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    OptiBoard Professional Kujiradesu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Think about it.

    We are in the business of making glasses.

    Not in the business of helping other people make glasses.
    So I guess you just see these people as lost causes? They were never going to buy glasses from you so you dont mind showing them the way out? I'm just trying to understand the philosophy.
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    Redhot Jumper You can be of a totally different opinion.............................

    Quote Originally Posted by Kujiradesu View Post

    So I guess you just see these people as lost causes? They were never going to buy glasses from you so you dont mind showing them the way out? I'm just trying to understand the philosophy.

    That is why a place like OptiBoard is of great value. You can be of a totally different opinion or make knowingly a wrong statement if you feel like it, because you are participating under a pseudonym.

    Online opticals function like the optical lab does sell to the public as they would to a normal retailer. At close to wholesale pricing.

    At this price there are no retail service charges included. If you split up the difference to your selling price, into the service items you put into your final retail pricing, you will come to a result.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    OptiBoard Professional Kujiradesu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    That is why a place like OptiBoard is of great value. You can be of a totally different opinion or make knowingly a wrong statement if you feel like it, because you are participating under a pseudonym.

    Online opticals function like the optical lab does sell to the public as they would to a normal retailer. At close to wholesale pricing.

    At this price there are no retail service charges included. If you split up the difference to your selling price, into the service items you put into your final retail pricing, you will come to a result.
    Chris, I always appreciate your comments because you know your stuff.

    So, if we take WP as an example. If someone walks into your optical and says I want to order a pair of glasses from WP. If WP is charging xxx for a single vision RX with frame. Lets just guess that the frame may cost xxx wholesale so if I do x3 markup = xxx. When I order sv lenses from my lab on average were talking xxx so if I mark that up x3 = xxx. So total were talking about xxx for the frame and lenses. Then subtract the cost that the customer has already paid and we get xxx. So if I'm following this right, I should charge this person xxxfor a PD, check that the RX is correct, and adjustment of the frame, o rxxx for each service individually. Seems reasonable to me.
    Last edited by Steve Machol; 04-18-2017 at 09:52 AM. Reason: Wholesale pricing removed
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    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    As per the forum rules, I have removed wholesale prices from the previous post.


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    OptiBoard Professional Kujiradesu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Machol View Post
    As per the forum rules, I have removed wholesale prices from the previous post.
    My apologies. Wont happen again.
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    Redhot Jumper The WP customer is purchasing an unfinished product ...........................

    Quote Originally Posted by Kujiradesu View Post

    Chris, I always appreciate your comments because you know your stuff.

    So, if we take WP as an example. If someone walks into your optical and says I want to order a pair of glasses from WP.


    Your lab whoever that is, will charge you a little more than WP sells them to the public.

    So actually you could sell at the same price, and charge a fix fee, or calculate the time used for all the details you do.

    Itemize from doing the refraction to take the time for choosing the frames, to taking all the measurements needed, checking the glasses after they come back from the lab, adjust them plus readjustments, ect.

    Your professional time has been added in a package for the last 200 years and it is not working anymore. You have to itemize everything that is personal service for which you should be paid a professional service that can be competitive.

    The WP customer is purchasing an unfinished product that still has to be checked, and adjusted, and maybe re-adjusted once or two more times.
    Chris Ryser
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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Your lab whoever that is, will charge you a little more than WP sells them to the public..
    No. They won't. They are selling quite a different product from most all private practices. Now the stack-em-deep & sell-em-cheap chains would be a better analogy.

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    One eye sees, the other feels. OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Your lab whoever that is, will charge you a little more than WP sells them to the public.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    No. They won't. They are selling quite a different product from most all private practices. Now the stack-em-deep & sell-em-cheap chains would be a better analogy.
    Not to mention that we're profitable, pay our taxes, but Warby Parker hasn't made one penny of profit since day one. What did I read the other day about Uber...they're expecting 3 billion dollars in losses last year, up from 2 billion dollars the year before. They're helping to destroy America faster than ISIS had ever hoped for.
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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kujiradesu View Post
    Was noodling around on the NJ Optometrist licensing page (which I've never been to and stumbled across this in the FAQ:

    "Is an optometrist required to include the "pupillary distance" on an eyeglass prescription?
    No. An optometrist is not required to include the interpupillary distance and height segment measurements on an eyeglass
    One State's Board does require binocular PD's at patients request. Now watch as DC rewrites rules soon requiring all states to provide it. We are not bribin...er donating enough to politicians to keep corporate interests (on line sites) from changing this rule. It is coming and I'll predict soon.

    http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/licensee/dpl-boards/op/regulations/board-policies/inter-pupillary-distance-on-prescriptions.html



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    Redhot Jumper

    The Official Website of the Office of Consumer Affairs & Business Regulation (OCABR)


    Consumer Affairs and Business Regulation


    Inter-pupillary Distance on Prescriptions

    The Board requires that - upon patient request - the inter-pupillary distance be entered on any prescription. No additional fee may be charged for providing the binocular PD.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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    Compulsive Truthteller OptiBoard Gold Supporter Uncle Fester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    The Official Website of the Office of Consumer Affairs & Business Regulation (OCABR)


    Consumer Affairs and Business Regulation


    Inter-pupillary Distance on Prescriptions

    The Board requires that - upon patient request - the inter-pupillary distance be entered on any prescription. No additional fee may be charged for providing the binocular PD.
    This is a Massachusetts specific regulation. It does NOT apply to other states.

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    On warby parker's website, they clearly state their customers should expect to pay $50 for a one-time eyeglass adjustment within 30 days of purchase and $50 for a PD measurement from an optical establishment. That is the easiest $100 you can make, you keep a potential customer happy, and that customer of WP may turn into a patient for you when the glasses are the wrong rx for the patient, or the -4.50 lenses splay the temples so much the frame falls off the patient!

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Martellaro View Post
    Not to mention that we're profitable, pay our taxes, but Warby Parker hasn't made one penny of profit since day one.
    The sign of a well managed business. Show no profit, pay no taxes. However, you can bet that Mr. Warby and Mr. Parker are living high on the hog and that's the name of the game.

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Oh there is some comedy gold all up in here folks!

    http://ask.metafilter.com/279734/Giv...llary-distance

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments OptiBoard Gold Supporter
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    Redhot Jumper ................has actually been proven by the owners of "Coastal" online optical...

    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post

    The sign of a well managed business. Show no profit, pay no taxes. However, you can bet that Mr. Warby and Mr. Parker are living high on the hog and that's the name of the game.

    .................has actually been proven by the owners of Coastal online optical, no returns, but sold to Essilor for millions of Dollars.

    WP will probably end up doing the same thing.
    Chris Ryser
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    http://optochemicals.com............................. http://arcoatings.com

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