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Thread: Antibacterial soap and AR???

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    Unhappy Antibacterial soap and AR???

    So I had a patient coming back to me regarding her new 1.6 + sapphire coating (took nearly 2 weeks for those lenses). I remember clearly that the day I received the lenses I checked for every possible problems, and I couldn't find anything. Today, she came back to me with Newton's rings in the middle of both lenses (only in the middle though). They were only visible under a certain angle with certain amount of light, normally they cannot be seen. I'm not sure what might cause this. I suspect that the glasses have been exposed to some certain degree of heat, but she couldn't think of anything (she was certain she didn't wear them while blow drying, but she stated that she used antibacterial soap and room temperature/cool water). I haven't heard anything about antibacterial soap causing this effect on any AR coatings, so the reason can't be that. Does anyone have any idea what might cause these rings? In the end, I remade her lenses even though they do not really affect her vision nor the AR's performance, mainly for cosmetic purposes. But still, the question is still there. What do you think?
    Last edited by D_Opt; 03-28-2017 at 09:39 PM.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Newton rings are the by-product (birefringence) of index matched coatings (or lack thereof). Not much can be done, and the high alcohol content of anti bacterial soap would not affect the coating like this. You did not mention the time lapse of when the glasses were dispensed to when the patient returned. Not quite sure that remaking it will solve the problem, unless the lab uses a 1.6 index thermally cured HC.

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    They are eyezen with sapphire coating, and it has been 2 weeks since she got the glasses (march 13). I suspect because of the faint sky blue reflection color, I couldn't see them in the first place. Better pay more attention to sapphire in the future then. The problem is when you have already explained the rings wouldn't be pose a problem besides cosmetically, patients still reject them .

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    Quote Originally Posted by D_Opt View Post
    They are eyezen with sapphire coating, and it has been 2 weeks since she got the glasses (march 13). I suspect because of the faint sky blue reflection color, I couldn't see them in the first place. Better pay more attention to sapphire in the future then. The problem is when you have already explained the rings wouldn't be pose a problem besides cosmetically, patients still reject them .
    Hear that loud and clear. Its amazing that so many will accept finish Poly AR, which are a smorgasbord of birefringence, without complaint.

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    I tend to stay away from poly as much as possible, unless someone really wants it. Still, I just can't believe that Essilor own lab still doesn't index match their coatings. I know Zeiss and Hoya do it tho.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Hoya will on EX3 and above. Zeiss, not sure. I will need to talk to my rep. Duravison Platinum, I believe is index matched, but not Silver or Blue. I've seen birefringence on 1.67 from CZ on their Teflon, Silver and AST. I've also seen it on 1.67 Crizal.
    All AR consists of a low and a hi index SI layer to control the refraction of light. In essence, Anti-Reflective is not Anti-Reflective, but controlled refraction. Controlling birefringence is all about the HC stack, and not the AR stack. The cost of 1.67 index coating is just plain ridiculous. The only way to make the cost worthwhile is to have a single lab run all 1.67 thin coats. Not something that many corporate labs, and almost no independents, nor partner labs will consider. Most labs will use just two indices for their dip coats, mainly for cost control. Poly and CR39 average usage is about 75%. The other 25 is made up of TVX and 1.6 or higher. No wonder most labs keep to the two indices.
    From my understanding, All EX3 is coated in one lab to keep costs in check, hence the longer than average wait. But then again, we stopped doing business with Hoya several years ago, so I may be out of touch with reality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Hoya will on EX3 and above. Zeiss, not sure. I will need to talk to my rep. Duravison Platinum, I believe is index matched, but not Silver or Blue. I've seen birefringence on 1.67 from CZ on their Teflon, Silver and AST. I've also seen it on 1.67 Crizal.
    All AR consists of a low and a hi index SI layer to control the refraction of light. In essence, Anti-Reflective is not Anti-Reflective, but controlled refraction. Controlling birefringence is all about the HC stack, and not the AR stack. The cost of 1.67 index coating is just plain ridiculous. The only way to make the cost worthwhile is to have a single lab run all 1.67 thin coats. Not something that many corporate labs, and almost no independents, nor partner labs will consider. Most labs will use just two indices for their dip coats, mainly for cost control. Poly and CR39 average usage is about 75%. The other 25 is made up of TVX and 1.6 or higher. No wonder most labs keep to the two indices.
    From my understanding, All EX3 is coated in one lab to keep costs in check, hence the longer than average wait. But then again, we stopped doing business with Hoya several years ago, so I may be out of touch with reality.
    Thanks for the info. Love the DVP coating, haven't received any complaints so far. But my favorite would be the MSC coating from Tokai, got them from a trip to Japan and they are amazing. Too bad we can't get Tokai here.

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    sounds like too much pressure from the blocks when cutting the lenses.

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Sadly, Sapphire just isn't what it was when first introduced. It takes weeks to get, and the color has morphed from a very nice deep blue, to a sickly pale powder blue. I've returned more than a few sets of lenses for poor color initially, then just gave up on using Sapphire entirely, in favor of the less expensive Avancé instead. Generally, I have no issues with E or their products. But for the price they charge, that lens has failed to meet my expectations far too many times now. Its a shame really.

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    Isn't Sapphire is just a blue version of Avance (well they call it Forte here)? I do not notice any difference in terms of performance between the two other than Forte is yellowish green.

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    The tale was that it was slightly clearer than Avancé. But as far as I can tell, they're more or less interchangeable, apart from the reflex color. And the added hit to your bank account. I did really like the color when the QC was much better. But anymore, it's ugly and I don't order it for that more than anything else. *shrug*

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    BAck to OP question, it sounds like its crazed. I have had a recent issue with sapphire and eye zen too.. shes on her 3rd set. we inspect them with led lights and no crazing... week later its there. right in the middle and looks like a chuck issue or too aggressive cutting.

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Except that Newton rings ≠ crazing. Something else appears to be happening in this case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim View Post
    BAck to OP question, it sounds like its crazed. I have had a recent issue with sapphire and eye zen too.. shes on her 3rd set. we inspect them with led lights and no crazing... week later its there. right in the middle and looks like a chuck issue or too aggressive cutting.
    Oh dear, I guess I am not the only person experiencing this but it's not crazing issue here. On my patient lenses, the rings are hardly visible though. Unless I really look for them, they are hard to notice. But still, my patient is a *perfectionist*, totally understand that. Another 2 weeks for her.

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    I have had exactly the same experience as Ulieann when it comes to Sapphire.

    As far as Avance, 1.6 usually works great (no rings!)

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    sounds like chuck abrasions- they will show up if you hold the lenses in front of a halogen light source

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    Quote Originally Posted by kittyeyes View Post
    sounds like chuck abrasions- they will show up if you hold the lenses in front of a halogen light source
    Definitely can be the cause of crazinge, as can thin center thickness and too much stress on an oversized lens in a frame (which will often only show up weeks later)

    In my experience crazing looks very different from Newtonian rings though.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    D-Opt - After reading all of the responses here, might I throw a curve ball? Since you say this is not crazing and looks like Newton's ring, but just in the center of the lens, I need to ask this. Is this a freeform lens, or perhaps a STP process? It may be possible that the secondary diamond did not fully clean up the lens on the final pass, and the soft tool polisher was not able fully polish it out. This would be barely perceptible, even under an arc lamp, until an AR coating is applied, and so slight that the light has to hit it just right to see them. If the diamond is slightly pitted, dull, or at the end of its life, it will leave a circular pattern at the GC of the lens that polishing and hard coating may fill in. Just a thought.

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    But Eyezen+ isn't freeform though, correct me if I'm wrong.

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    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter lensmanmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_Opt View Post
    But Eyezen+ isn't freeform though, correct me if I'm wrong.
    Ah, but Eyezen is. It has a slight add bump @ the bottom. Even if the lens was a traditional RX, more labs are using FF equipment for surfacing lenses. Straight to polish increases productivity. Gone are the payroll hours for pulling and restocking laps. Gone are the multiple pads. Straight from the generator to the polisher = higher throughput. I can't remember the last time that we fired up our toric surfacers..........

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    Quote Originally Posted by lensmanmd View Post
    Ah, but Eyezen is. It has a slight add bump @ the bottom. Even if the lens was a traditional RX, more labs are using FF equipment for surfacing lenses. Straight to polish increases productivity. Gone are the payroll hours for pulling and restocking laps. Gone are the multiple pads. Straight from the generator to the polisher = higher throughput. I can't remember the last time that we fired up our toric surfacers..........
    Thanks for the info. I'll inspect the lenses carefully when they arrive. I find it hard to believe they didn't catch it during inspection stage though.

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    Hi Everyone, it has been awhile and i dropped in to see what was happening on OB....
    When I was on the AR Council, there were care and handling tips for cleaning AR Lenses and hard coated lenses in general. Original Dawn was recommended. Over the years we found anti bacterial soaps attacked coatings, breaking down tops coats.
    Best to all, Jim
    Jim Schafer
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