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Thread: What makes the plastic in a plastic frame quality plastic?

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    Blue Jumper What makes the plastic in a plastic frame quality plastic?

    Howdy!
    I'm trying to quantify what makes a quality plastic frame.
    What plastics are considered the best? Where do they come from and who makes them? Etc.
    By quality I'm thinking of Maui Jim's, Lafont, Pro Design and so forth. Funny enough Oakley plastic suns often feel chintzy and cheap.
    We're wanting to make our own brand of suns and need details for our 'guy'.

    Thanks for any info!

    cs

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    Mazzucchelli acetate is considered the best in the business, as far as I know.

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    Mister Ryser has said a few words on this subject in the not to distant past ... What say you, Mister Ryser?

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sphinxsmith View Post
    Howdy!
    I'm trying to quantify what makes a quality plastic frame.
    What plastics are considered the best? Where do they come from and who makes them? Etc.
    By quality I'm thinking of Maui Jim's, Lafont, Pro Design and so forth. Funny enough Oakley plastic suns often feel chintzy and cheap.
    We're wanting to make our own brand of suns and need details for our 'guy'.

    Thanks for any info!

    cs
    Oakley plastics ARE chintzy and cheap. See what happens if you get lens marking remover or isopropol alcohol on them.... actually don't, the frame will literally fall apart. Optyl is my favorite form of plastic because of its self repairing ability. This means nicks and scratches are healed when the plastic is heated to 265 degrees F. They also resume their molded form at this temp if they have been completely warped. These come from multiple manufacturers but my personal fave is Gucci because of fit.
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    Oakley plastics ARE chintzy and cheap. See what happens if you get lens marking remover or isopropol alcohol on them.... actually don't, the frame will literally fall apart. Optyl is my favorite form of plastic because of its self repairing ability. This means nicks and scratches are healed when the plastic is heated to 265 degrees F. They also resume their molded form at this temp if they have been completely warped. These come from multiple manufacturers but my personal fave is Gucci because of fit.
    I met with the new Gucci Rep yesterday and they are moving away from optyl.

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    Redhot Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphinxsmith View Post

    Mister Ryser has said a few words on this subject in the not to distant past ... What say you, Mister Ryser?

    Here I say it again.....................

    Acetate the standard quality of optical frames has to be stored at least for a year in a perfect conditioned environment without being worked on.

    All the not behaving latest style colors or frame models that are not behaving the way they should have not been stored long enough. Some manufacturer was too greedy with something really new, and the optician is paying for it.

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    Ghost in the OptiMachine Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jentos View Post
    I met with the new Gucci Rep yesterday and they are moving away from optyl.
    Huh, I wonder why... I love the feel of all their frames so I guess they can use whatever they want!
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post

    Huh, I wonder why... I love the feel of all their frames so I guess they can use whatever they want!

    Optyl is injection moulded

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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    Huh, I wonder why... I love the feel of all their frames so I guess they can use whatever they want!
    Because Gucci is being taken over by the company that owns the brand, Kering, but Carrera (thus Safilo) owns the patent on Optyl. Safilo is still manufacturing Gucci for Kering, but I'm sure they charge a license fee for Optyl so likely Kering doesn't want to stick with it.

    Yup I love Optyl, and I can't believe how little Safilo uses it. That could be a major differentiator for them if they capitalized in it. The Optyl Guccis are incredible. Sad to see them go.

    Acetates of all kinds are good, even cheaper Asian stuff. Certainly not as richly colored as Mazzucchelli but still quite adjustable and durable. They are best for color and layered textures, you can't get the same quality look with other materials that have to be a solid color or painted.

    The cheaper plastics in Oakley and a lot of sunwear is some injection molded stuff, no idea the composition. True, not as good as acetate, but damn lightweight and inexpensive. I like the material fine for exactly those two features.

    TR-90 and Ultem are also good inexpensive materials, very light and flexible, and such frames can get you a lot more value than cheap acetates.

    Excellent acetate is the best for luxury frames, Optyl my second choice. All other materials have their uses but I would never accept them in high end frames, only in commodity stuff.

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    Another deciding factor regarding costs of acetate has to do with supply and demand. Some luxury companies will pay more to keep colors and patterns exclusive to them.
    Last edited by Paul Smith LDO; 12-01-2016 at 08:29 PM.
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    TR-90 and Ultem? I'm not familiar with these two materials. Are they uncommon these days? The large majority of plastic frames I've seen are Zyl, with the balance being Optyl and Propionate

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    Grilamid TR 90, a trivex derived material. Very popular in Tech inspired eyewear lines.
    Last edited by Paul Smith LDO; 12-01-2016 at 08:37 PM.
    I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it. Mark Twain

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    Acetate is the best plastic and it's made from cotton. Most regular plastics are made from petroleum.
    Acetate need to be prepared properly. They need to be dried in an oven the less expensive frames arent dried long enough as it takes time and time =money. Proper tumbling with w [d chips bring out the shine. The white coloration on some acetate in my experience only comes from one (The largest) manufacturer. I believe (I don't have proof) they spray their frames to achieve the shine and that coating turns white.

    There are other great materials if used properly like TR90 if the pellets come from Switzerland. However it doesn't come near acetate in terms of colors.

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Cotton ? ? ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Cotton ? ? ?
    He thinks the cellulose in cellulose acetate comes from cotton, which hasn't been true for a very long time. The cellulose starter material now used is mostly mixed grade wood pulp.

    Plus, I don't understand why he made a point of saying where the origin of a given plastic plastic comes from. Who cares if it comes from tree pulp or petrol? Does it really matter? Technically many basic plastics could be made from many, many starter materials, it just happens to be that its cheaper and/or easier from a chemical transformative perspective to start from certain materials than others, which has no bearing on the final material itself.
    Last edited by Lelarep; 12-04-2016 at 09:34 PM.

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    New to optiBOARD. Long time optician. When optyl came out, I sold quite a few. The problem I have with optyl is the difficulty getting a proper fit behind the customers ears. When heated and molded by me to what I think will be a good fit, I'll give it to the customer to try on. If it's not quite right, I can't tweak it a bit unless I heat it; optyl snaps pretty easily if not heated. So, I need to reheat the temple to fine-tune the fit, losing most of what I did before because the material reverts back to its original shape. To me, it's a frustrating material to work with, and if a customer decides to adjust the frame outside my office, it will snap.
    On a different subject, if you use alcohol to clean lenses and get some of the alcohol on some Ray-Ban plastic frames, the frame will shatter.

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    Blue Jumper Problems with plastic

    Problems with plastics, types of deterioration & where you find it


    Smells
    Vinegar: Ethanoic (acetic) acid produced by degrading cellulose acetate.

    Mothballs: Camphor plasticiser in cellulose nitrate but not always an indication of degradation.

    Sharp & acidic: Nitric acid or hydrochloric acid from cellulose nitrate or PVC respectively.

    Sweaty & ‘plasticy’: Phthalate plasticisers in PVC and cellulose acetate have a characteristic smell, instantly recognisable as something ‘plastic’

    Corrosion
    Gradual acid release from PVC, cellulose nitrate and cellulose acetate can cause metal components to corrode. Corrosion can therefore be a warning sign that degradation has started.

    See all of it: ==========>
    http://optochemicals.com/plastic.htm
    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 12-05-2016 at 04:18 AM.

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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelarep View Post
    He thinks the cellulose in cellulose acetate comes from cotton, which hasn't been true for a very long time. The cellulose starter material now used is mostly mixed grade wood pulp.

    Plus, I don't understand why he made a point of saying where the origin of a given plastic plastic comes from. Who cares if it comes from tree pulp or petrol? Does it really matter? Technically many basic plastics could be made from many, many starter materials, it just happens to be that its cheaper and/or easier from a chemical transformative perspective to start from certain materials than others, which has no bearing on the final material itself.
    Is cotton really not used, as many luxury acetate lines specifically claim the cotton-based origin? They could be mistaken themselves, as they are buying the acetate not manufacturing it themselves, but I don't have any way of knowing better than they. I'm sure it makes sense to use wood pulp for mass manufacture of lower end frames. Maybe that is another differentiator in acetates, cotton vs. wood? No idea if it necessarily makes a difference in the quality of the finished material.

    I think petrol and similar materials are used in most all plastics, it's the agent that binds with the cellulose acetate to make it plastic. The only reason to care about that is environmental. There are a few makers I know of that specifically use sustainable non-pretroleum products in their acetates as part of their eco efforts.

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    If they state cotton base, I would believe it. I was only talking about mass production. It can certainly still be made from cotton, it just costs more. For higher-end products, I can see cotton base still being used, since it would be small production. Not being a material scientist, I can't speak to the quality outcome, but I'd guess, since the cellulose is more consistently uniform with a cotton base, compared to mixed wood pulp, the product does come out better.

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    I have always referred to cellulose acetate as a 70-75% cotton and plant fiber derived material, as that is what I have been told by sources. I understand that the percentage may change depending on the quality of the production line and what the frame manufacturer wants in order to cut costs.
    I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying I approved of it. Mark Twain

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    Redhot Jumper In 1865, cellulose acetate was synthesized for the first time ......................

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Smith LDO View Post

    I have always referred to cellulose acetate as a 70-75% cotton and plant fiber derived material, as that is what I have been told by sources. I understand that the percentage may change depending on the quality of the production line and what the frame manufacturer wants in order to cut costs.
    Here are the facts:

    In 1865, cellulose acetate was synthesized for the first time by Schutzenberger, Germany. After that, as a result of a number of studies, cellulose acetate was successfully solubilized in a common solvent such as acetone, which opened the way to industrial production. In Japan, our company began to conduct studies on cellulose acetate in the late Taisho era, and in 1935, succeeded in the industrial production and started selling it on the market. Since then, our company has been innovating technologies and making continuous efforts to deliver the highest quality product.

    Cellulose acetate is excellent in chemical resistance, heat resistance, and burning resistance, and in recent years, has attracted attention as a resin that is derived from the natural polymer, cellulose, as a raw material and is friendly to the human body and the environment.

    an excellent description of how it is made at: ========>
    http://www.daicel.com/cell_ac/en

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