Transitions Lenses

**OdTech** · 01-22-2003, 12:55 PM

Hello there wizards

you know the benefit of transitional lenses or photochromatic the same thing. it gives you a smooth fading effect when you are outside and inside.
in the early developments there were some complaints such as, 'When driving, my vision is darker inside the car, than when i'm ouside not driving' that's why the 100% benefit got the special coating for regular lenses which is "Anti-Reflective Coating" which transmits more light and shows the natural appearence of your eyes, lively.
However, through trial and error, the transitional lenses got more advanced and got better. i often asked myself "if the transitional lenses can have A-RC although the lenses get darker in different atmosphere, what would the trial and error effect be.?"
"What are the most used tansitional lenses in the stores," i know the manufacturer varies, so the lenses too.
Also "To who would you reccomend the transitional lenses? in terms i.e. Occupational Progressives, are there Occupational Transitions?" "What are some usual complaints you get from the patients who are transition lens wearers?" although its rare.

The word "transition" gave me a futuristic hope of advancement, i mean if there is actually transitional lenses then in the near future there will be "transitional frames". When client has these, he/she doesn't need two or three glasses. But the color of the frames will change the same way as the lenses, so the color would match up with the clothes. the chemical compund woulld be so advanced that, the client can tell the optiocian-us that i want these particular colors when i am in the certain sorroundings. I know this sounds far-fetched but realize if there is actually transional lenses then there will be transitional frames
In advance thanks for viewing and replying.:hammer:

**Robert Martellaro** · 01-23-2003, 11:15 AM

I think I know what you mean.

I do not recommend photochromics. To be sure, there has been significant progress in the functionality of transitions, especially with indoor light transmision, I do not feel this is the best choice for the vast majority of my clients. I tell my clients, who are mostly over fifty years old, that if they need sunglasses they should take the money they would spend on transitions and put it towards a dedicated polarized sunglass, a polarized clip, or fitover. I keep their regular glasses clear, and use an anti-reflection coating when practical.

Robert

**OdTech** · 01-23-2003, 02:27 PM

Dear Mr: Robert Martellaro thanks for reply

My idea behind the words were that as you know everyone dreams of the lens that would give excellent optics in what ever job they're and cituation.
I liked you informative reply , the idea was to get 2 in 1 product since what you mean is to get them buy a pair of glasses for certain activities that not what i meant although the idea of 'transitions' itself limiting in optics. However i would to be frank with you, I would do the same, just add a very thick layer of A/R.

Can you tell me what is a "FitOver" isn't it Clip on?

**Jim G** · 01-23-2003, 08:36 PM

Ah, the classic photochromic vs. 2-pair debate! Let's see, this started with the original PhotoGray lenses in, when, 1968?

Certainly, economics enters into the discussion however, why not both? Transitions (generic term to include all the changable plastic lenses) are a comfort lens, not intended to replace sunwear. Plus, they don't work in a car. I've been wearing clear lenses for a couple weeks now and, for the life of me, I really don't know why; gimme my Transitions back. They are so comfortable when going out into this bright AZ sunlite; and, when I was in MN over the holidays and the temps were in the teens, I was wearing a Tint 4!

The economics works for both dispensers and patients too.

For the dispenser: Transitions command a $XX add-on but, I know of practices where Transitions account for well over 25% of lenses dispensed. (Interestingly, Transitions are used much more in higher priced lenses like PAL's than SV!) 25% x $XX add-on will generate much more in revenue than you're currently making from your, what 4-10%?, sunwear second pair.

For the consumer: Transitions has conducted consumer surveys where user satisfaction is over 90% and the intent to buy over 75%. There aren't many products that we offer with those stats (PAL's and ARC are equally strong). Repurchase rates, particularly for the newer products, are equally high. AND, many of those folks will opt for the polarized pair as well (industry stats show less than 3% of lenses sold).

If price is a concern, consider using the old frame or a MediCal/Insurance frame for the second pair. The maximum price for sun lenses would be, what $2-300? A compromise of $250 over 2 years is only 34 cents a day; for 3 years, 23 cents. I'm retired and I lose more than that daily (but then, I'm a terrible golfer).

It shouldn't be an either or but rather offering the advantages of both to the patient and helping them to an informed decision.

As to ARC on Transitions, because AR transmits more light, the lenses won't get quite as dark but, because Transitions are not intended to be a "sun" lens, and certainly clear when indoors, ARC is a definite option that should also be offered. I wouldn't be without it.

**Robert Martellaro** · 01-23-2003, 08:43 PM

OdTech said:

Can you tell me what is a "FitOver" isn't it Clip on?

http://www.fitovers.com/index_sport.htm

Lens quality is about what one would expect at this price point, but frame durability is outstanding.

Robert

**OdTech** · 01-23-2003, 09:32 PM

Thanks to all of you
One suggestion if you're had started a topic on polarized the website 2020mag.com which is 20/20 magazine has a very good archive and recent advancements in polarized in some sections of online magazine, once again very informative. I am like magnet in respect to this site

**OpticianLynn2000** · 01-24-2003, 07:21 PM

Robert............
Photochromic lenses are good for everyone. I sell them to the elderly, children and everyone in-between. I recommend to people to purchase a clip-on for those times in their car when the lens does not turn dark and the lighting conditions are glaring. However, when they are going in and out of the house, out to the garden, mail box, etc. the photochromic is a nice convenience instead of them having to carry around an extra pair of glasses.

There are those who love a photochromic but I also suggest to them to get a full sun glass for their boating, golfing, etc. Not only one pair of glasses suit all of our needs these days. And being in this business, striving for 2nd and third pairs are profitable. We must "listen" to the patients lifestyle needs, then recommend accordingly. Just like selling readers or computer glasses along with progressives helps some people accomodate their specific needs.:)

**Robert Martellaro** · 01-27-2003, 05:53 PM

Lynn,

I have spent a fair amount of money at Arlington Park (the track, not the casino). Fortunately I got most of it back. It must be nice to be able to take a lunch break and put money on the daily double, if you so desire. Do you remember a company called House of Vision or Benson Optical in the Chicago area?

I'm glad you do well with transitions. I discourage photochromics for a variety of reasons. My main concern would be with the over fifty age group (my clientele). Their pupils stay smaller in low light and react slower to changes in light levels. There is usually a complete lack of accommodation which begs for more light when reading. In addition, folks in this age group seem to prefer function over convenience, and are willing to pay for and demand the best vision and comfort that technology can provide. Clear AR coated lenses provide the best low light and high contrast performance, although the next generation transitions does come close if coated. But...above the age of sixty, cataracts become an issue, with brown polarized sun lenses offering the best perceived VA and glare reduction, and are probably the best general purpose sunglass for all ages. Transitions can not and admittedly does not present their lens as a sunglass solution, but as a convenience lens; a good lens for those who refuse to carry two pair and are not particularly light sensitive.

Robert

**OpticianLynn2000** · 01-28-2003, 08:34 PM

Robert,

My husband is in this business also and has been for MANY years. He goes back to House of Vision.

Would go to Arlington Race Track, but never really got interested.
I remember seeing it burning down several years ago.

**Robert Martellaro** · 01-29-2003, 03:04 PM

Lynn,

I worked for Hov for 2 years before the merger with Bensons. My shop was a Hov from '50 to '82. When Bensons closed in '95 I re-opened as Roberts Optical. They were both outstanding optical companies with histories extending back to the 1920's. Tell your husband an ex-Hov optician says Hi.

Robert

**eyeguy2005** · 02-06-2003, 07:21 PM

Coming from the "old school" optician training, I always suggest to the patient a clear and sunglass pair of specs. This does two things for the optician and the business, one....It increases the shops sales with double eyeglass sales and two.....you won't have the problem of the patient returning complaining that the transitions don't get dark enough. If your bold enough and you know your product then explaining to the patient the pros and cons of transitions would be good, then let them decided. But, in all my years of profession I seen too many returning complaining. Who uses glasses photochromics anymore? WELL, it's true that they ARE better than transitions but we all know the downfalls, heavier, thicker and what not but optically the best. However, with the improved materials in the plastic world this can be somewhat a selling tool to get the patient out of glass, but then comes in the scratching. My motto, stick with two pairs and you can't go wrong no matter what you do. The patient will appreciate your honesty and integrity and look at you as a real optical wizard. :)

**Chris Ryser** · 02-06-2003, 07:37 PM

OdTech said:

But the color of the frames will change the same way as the lenses, so the color would match up with the clothes. the chemical compund woulld be so advanced that, the client can tell the optiocian-us that i want these particular colors when i am in the certain sorroundings.

I love this one. Another research project. Old sorry, odTech, are you going to find me a company thet is going to use
a "transitional frame material?

Would like to have a frame that is red during the day and "midnight blue" in the night club" in downton New York for cocktail hour. Maybe we can program it green for the cuntry puting on the weekend. Jeff the trail can surely advise us on that one.

:hammer:

**OdTech** · 02-06-2003, 08:40 PM

Well Chris Ryser, i'm just a student but am ambitious and waiting for better and newer stuff like "Transitional Frames"
I had you going with your imaginations isn't well i know we all want a lens that will provide for us everything:
UV,IR,AR,SR, Anti-fog-coatings all in one, thin and light, and gives the same effect as transitional. BUT it impossible at least, a customer nowadays needs 4 glasses
Work/Home-Poly-AR=2 glasses
Leisure-Transitional-Poly and maybe AR coated.=1 glass
Polarized-Poly

But if we got Transitional Lens then we are very close to making Transitional Frames, U understood right, and gave me good examples.

Tell me how JEff Trail will help all of us. is he lens designer, chemist?

In conclusion,

Like a character from Intrapment movie said

It is impossible but doable

**John R** · 02-07-2003, 02:08 AM

OdTech said:
BUT it impossible at least, a customer nowadays needs 4 glasses
Work/Home-Poly-AR=2 glasses
Leisure-Transitional-Poly and maybe AR coated.=1 glass
Polarized-Poly

Well how the hell did we manage all them years ago when we only had one pair....Its a falacey that you need more than ONE pair started by gready opticians out to make more profit.....

Tell me how JEff Trail will help all of us. is he lens designer, chemist.

As "Member Of The Year", good all round guy who knows all, sees all and IS all.....
Just follow and Trail and you will find the answer..:p

**Chris Ryser** · 02-07-2003, 09:23 AM

OdTech said:

UV,IR,AR,SR, Anti-fog-coatings all in one, thin and light, and gives the same effect as transitional. BUT it impossible at least, a customer nowadays needs 4 glasses
Work/Home-Poly-AR=2 glasses
Leisure-Transitional-Poly and maybe AR coated.=1 glass
Polarized-Poly

But if we got Transitional Lens then we are very close to making Transitional Frames, U understood right, and gave me good examples.

Tell me how JEff Trail will help all of us. is he lens designer, chemist?

In conclusion,

Like a character from Intrapment movie said

It is impossible but doable

Jeff is a super advisor on lab techniques and good for a fight or two.
I am the chemicals guy also good for the occasional argument.

The present discussion is that you want the RollsRoyce right know. But does anybody else want it? It can be done without a problem. You could have your car painted with a photochromatic effect.

Your car would the be Yellow during the day and turn pink at night when you go out on a date to a club. All a matter of price.

Do you want that, or do you want to provide your customers with the best at the most affordable price, exactly what they want and can afford.

Start looking at do yourself solutions which are available right now and you can provide just about everything and still make a good buck

**Jeff Trail** · 02-07-2003, 11:42 AM

I don't know about being an "expert" and chemist (yikes)..but I guess it could be done BUT you would have to have a frame with a stiff matrix and have it be able to imbibed with a chemical.. technically it would not work like a mood ring it would work more like a "splitz" where you have two colors that would mix under activation to get a third color..the main problems I would see is you have a frame like a carbon or nylon so it would tend to become brittle..than in the process you would have to have a "dry" frame (moisture extracted) to get the chemical to apply than you would end up with a fairly brittle frame ..
The next thing to consider is that any chemical it would need a catalyst to activate it, i.e., ambient or UV.. so it would not change indoors..only out..than you have people that want a frame to last about a million years but the chemical would break down with time and the activation would become inert..
You never know with the amount people are "willing" to pay for the abstract it might be a seller..would I buy it? Nope..
As for the other arguments(debate) I have no problem dispensing a Transition as long as it is done as a "comfort" lens NOT a substitute for a sun glass, as far as polarized I do not think you can get any better than that for what it was designed for.. I guess we might have an advantage here in Florida getting people to buy a second pair in polarized.. when I had my opticals I usually sold the less expensive pair at half price (frame/lens) knowing that when the bought the next time they would need lens changed in two frames and I made up the difference and they appreciated the "deal" the first go around :)
I also deal with a lot of the "older generation" in Florida (who would figure that?)

and I found just the opposite as Robert..chances are a lot of these guys went through the PGX phase in our industry and are more than used to getting a lens that changes.. the part I agree with his style is in cases where you have impaired vision i.e. cat's, macula problems etc., I try to always talk them into getting the clearest lens possible..retinal problems where light sensitivity like R.P. I tend to try to use lens like Corning or brown "A" polarized..
I know that we don't have the advantages we used to have where the OD or MD actually supplied the BVA (the stinkers) or any pathology info you are playing "20 questions" with the patient and HOPING they know what's shaking..
As for ODtech and you having your "combination" of what lens works,(poly/AR/tint etc., etc.) that is a No-No, need to get in the habit of understanding ALL the options and being able to mix and match combinations on the fly..WHILE making it look like this is how you always do it to get the confidence of the patient..no hmmm's and ahhh's :)
John is right, we used to get by for years and years with a one frame theory, and it was a combination of two things that changed that, chains and technology in lens design and material.. when your choice was PGX or PBX or CR39, no transitions, no 10 or so choices of indexes, 140 or so combinations of materials and designs in PAL's things were a lot more simple. Even your sunglass choice was ****, anyone else remember the nightmares of having the polar sheet laminated to the lens surface and it peels in a few months? YIKES.. or the junky AR's 8 or 10 years ago that shattered every other job you dispensed?
What it amounts to as a new person in optics, ODtech the best advice I can give is learn as many options as possible, how to make those options fit the need and make choices in combinations on the fly, and going in with a "this works here every time" is a no-no..you find everywhere you go they all have a certain way of doing it that you might agree or not agree with..you take everything into consideration and make your best recommendation from there, than it all gets shot down from "sticker price" shock ..:-)

Jeff "oh to be a rookie with all this new stuff available" Trail

**Chris Ryser** · 02-07-2003, 12:43 PM

Jeff, that was good long speech.

**Jeff Trail** · 02-07-2003, 03:54 PM

Chris Ryser said:
Jeff, that was good long speech.

Chris,

I would have thought you would have said something like "oh what a discourse on the pontification of chromtic lens, frames and advice" :) ..but than again I am still getting my "regal" feet wet

All in all, I think ODtech is looking for "black and white" answers when the best we can ever do is know the options, combinations and basic formula's to guide us along our path, than treat each situation with the selection that meets the persons needs best.. which at times are as economic based as correctibilty.
I think ODtech will learn (sometimes "painfully") that once you remove the basic optical formula there is no "right way" per se', just as you, or I or Robert or John would have a different answer for the solution on what "we" might think would work best.. the formula part of our industry in not to flexiable..but the rest? :)

Jeff "is this one short enough?"Trail

**OdTech** · 02-07-2003, 11:23 PM

Everyone understands variously, thus everyone does it that way

I thank you for putting things together in general terms.

Jeff Trail: You right about the [All in all, I think ODtech is looking for "black and white" answers when the best we can ever do is know the options, combinations and basic formula's to guide us along our path, than treat each situation with the selection that meets the persons needs best..
My CL teacher said the same words "This is just guide, a basic foundation" but the rest you'll figure it out, along the way.

[As for ODtech and you having your "combination" of what lens works,(poly/AR/tint etc., etc.) that is a No-No, need to get in the habit of understanding ALL the options and being able to mix and match combinations on the fly..WHILE making it look like this is how you always do it to get the confidence of the patient..no hmmm's and ahhh's ]

[What it amounts to as a new person in optics, ODtech the best advice I can give is learn as many options as possible, how to make those options fit the need and make choices in combinations on the fly, and going in with a "this works here every time" is a no-no..you find everywhere you go they all have a certain way of doing it that you might agree or not agree with..you take everything into consideration and make your best recommendation from there, than it all gets shot down from "sticker price" shock ..:-)]

These is really a confidence booster, sounds far-fetched, no, but true to the word. No wonder people of the past said, time and again i.e. of tailor profession "Measure 7 times but cut once"

Chris Ryser: Thanks for comments,
[The present discussion is that you want the RollsRoyce right know. But does anybody else want it? It can be done without a problem. You could have your car painted with a photochromatic effect.

Your car would the be Yellow during the day and turn pink at night when you go out on a date to a club. All a matter of price.

Do you want that, or do you want to provide your customers with the best at the most affordable price, exactly what they want and can afford.

Start looking at do yourself solutions which are available right now and you can provide just about everything and still make a good buck]

In other words, i don't need to get complicated with what we already have and achieved. Just provide what is really needed to the consumer.

John R: Thanks for your coments, and i didn't put the number because i'm greedy and long for money. just people need nowadays may be as long my school training/experience goes at least 4. I think by your answer, I would reccomend Transitional, Poly it would give them 3 in 1, package
clear & dark that 1
Poly -safest, most impact resistance that 2
Light weight averagely, that 3; if compare with Hi-Index.

[Well how the hell did we manage all them years ago when we only had one pair....Its a falacey that you need more than ONE pair started by gready opticians out to make more profit.....]

Since i did a mistake, stating wrong question about Jeff Trail,
I apologize.

You right Mr Jeff Trail is really [As "Member Of The Year", good all round guy who knows all, sees all and IS all.....
Just follow and Trail and you will find the answer..
:D ]

**Chris Ryser** · 02-08-2003, 02:45 AM

Jeff Trail said:
Chris,

I would have thought you would have said something like "oh what a discourse on the pontification of chromtic lens, frames and advice" :) ..but than again I am still getting my "regal" feet wet

Trail

This is one occasion I could get jalous.............................

Never had ..................."regal wet feet"............ how does that feel?

:hammer: