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Thread: Why has the worst optical surface ever become the biggest money maker ?

  1. #51
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    Blue Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by fjpod View Post

    One might say that progressive lenses do have "perfect" curves...for the purpose intended...that is, seeing clearly at all distances with a seamless transition(at least when looking through the channel).

    So, while we can find a lot of areas on a VFL that are unusable....there is one area that works better than anything else. So, in my mind, it is "perfect".

    You realize this is a philosophical discussion....

    Very nice post.

    Question, "what do you do when the addition gets at
    or over +2.25 D due to older age?

    Obviously we all know that the reading area gets smaller and the un-usable parts to the side get larger.

    Now you have to be a top notch optician, who can take perfect measurements and have a lab that can supply exactly to these measurements to have a happy customer.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Very nice post.

    Question, "what do you do when the addition gets at
    or over +2.25 D due to older age?

    Obviously we all know that the reading area gets smaller and the un-usable parts to the side get larger.

    Now you have to be a top notch optician, who can take perfect measurements and have a lab that can supply exactly to these measurements to have a happy customer.
    Well....same philosophy, as we get older, we need the smooth transition more than ever. Our presbyopia becomes virtually absolute. Although the channel is narrower, it is more "perfect" than ever...or at least , more "useful" than ever. I'm 60+, 2.50 add, and happy with mine.

  3. #53
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Just prove right here on OptiBoard that a progressive lens of any make has a perfect optical curvature outside the progressive part, and no distortions whatsoever, and I will officially apologize.
    Seriously? THAT'S your litmus test?

    You DO understand that basic optics show that NO lens is free of aberration off axis right? You honestly think that looking off to the edge of a FT of any power, but particularly moderate to high powers won't induce ANY blur, marginal astigmatism or prism imbalance whatsoever?

    Seriously - just STOP. Your spreading misinformation and are being purposefully and repetitively deceptive in your posting. Enough already - you've jumped the shark.

  4. #54
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    Redhot Jumper This normal distortion is far less objectionable than the skew distortion ...........



    Of the foregoing two specific types of distortion, skew distortion is by far the more objectionable in ophthalmic applications. In an ophthalmic lens, skew distortion produces a sensation of rocking and swaying with respect to the environment. In most instances,this rocking and swaying effect results in disorientation and nausea on the part of the wearer. The prior art progressive power and variable ophthalmic lenses were either totally uncorrected for skew distortion, resulted in only a partial correction for skew distortion, or resulted in a reading area too small for general use.


    The astigmatism present in a refractive surface, for a linear power law, varies laterally at twice the rate of additionof focal power along the principal meridional curve. Therefore, unless correction or compensation for distortion is undertaken in the peripheral areas of the ophthalmic lens utilizing progressive power, considerable distortion is necessarily present in the surface. For example, in the form of progressive lens shown in FIG. 3 of the drawing, the principal axes of astigmatism form a45° angle with respect to the horizontal and vertical lines of the visual environment throughout the intermediate area 36. Therefore, these lenses giverise to substantial amounts of skew and normal distortion in the peripheral areas of the intermediate area 36.


    As has been stated above, as is the case with astigmatism in such progressive power refractive surfaces, it is not possible to eliminate distortion in the surface. It has been discovered, however, that it is entirely possible to construct an ophthalmic surface which in the peripheral areas is totally corrected for skew distortion.That is to say, the principal axes of astigmatism in the peripheral areas maybe caused to lie in horizontal and vertical planes with respect to the visual environment such that only normal distortion occurs in these peripheral zones.This normal distortion is far less objectionable than the skew distortion and the incorporation of this aspect into a progressive power lens forms one of the principal features of the present invention.


    See all of it: ========č

    http://www.google.com/patents/US4062629


  5. #55
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    #facepalm
    #SMH

  6. #56
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    Redhot Jumper #faceˇpalm ------ #SMH

    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post

    #facepalm
    #SMH


    faceˇpalm
    ˈfāspä(l)m/
    noun



    • 1.
      a gesture in which the palm of one's hand is brought to one's face, as an expression of disbelief, shame, or
    • exasperation.
      "the site collects photos of our favorite facepalms"



    #SMH

    verb


    • 1.
      bring the palm of one's hand to one's face, as an expression of disbelief, shame, or exasperation.
      "how many times did she facepalm during the hearing?"




      [





  7. #57
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    Patients are unique. Each have unique needs. There is not one product that is best for everyone. I do think that lined lenses are underused, but I also think that progressives are a better option for most presbyopes. As others stated, image jump and distortion along the segment edge make lined lenses less than ideal for some patients. Pushing any particular lens product without bothering to determine the patient's needs is sub-par patient care.

  8. #58
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    Redhot Jumper There is an image jump on the line, correct .....................

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboytelemark View Post

    ....................but I also think that progressives are a better option for most presbyopes. As others stated, image jump and distortion along the segment edge make lined lenses less than ideal for some patients. Pushing any particular lens product without bothering to determine the patient's needs is sub-par patient care.

    There is an image jump on the line correct, and one can get used to it.

    On a progressive you have 40 % distortion to the side and you can get used to it too, but which one has the better
    optics ?

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    but which one has the better
    optics ?
    Neither. Both are a compromise. One might be better for a certain patient than another, depending on their needs. If you really want to argue for only selling the best optics, why aren't you pushing for only selling single vision lenses? Of course, those are also a compromise, you are compromising the versatility of a multifocal for the cleaner optics of the SV. You have systematically discounted the opinions of others in this thread, including those with way more expertise than I have, so I have no doubt that you will discount my post as well, and go on being the smartest person in the universe.

  10. #60
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    Chris, I think you made your point.... Time to move on?

  11. #61
    Master OptiBoarder MakeOptics's Avatar
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    This whole discussions leaves out the limited availability of base curves in FT multifocals. I haven't used a standard PAL in years so every PAL currently available is base curve optimized yet often times FT's are not digitally surfaced or base curve optimized so in most cases the curve used can be up to +/- 1.00 from the optimal curve leaving some compromise in the lens. I don't think anyone can claim they know which compromise suits my client better then the two people sitting at the table (Optician / Client). Old school or not ALL SCHOOLS dictate the best case scenario is the one where the OPTICIAN takes the CLIENTS needs into consideration, I value the discussion but it's very similar to an insurance company telling me which lens my CLIENT needs, I alone will be the judge of that.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeOptics View Post
    This whole discussions leaves out the limited availability of base curves in FT multifocals. I haven't used a standard PAL in years so every PAL currently available is base curve optimized yet often times FT's are not digitally surfaced or base curve optimized so in most cases the curve used can be up to +/- 1.00 from the optimal curve leaving some compromise in the lens. I don't think anyone can claim they know which compromise suits my client better then the two people sitting at the table (Optician / Client). Old school or not ALL SCHOOLS dictate the best case scenario is the one where the OPTICIAN takes the CLIENTS needs into consideration, I value the discussion but it's very similar to an insurance company telling me which lens my CLIENT needs, I alone will be the judge of that.
    I kind of agree with most of that, but my bias is to trust the old corrected curve charts over the who knows what base curve the lab's software will dictate to me. Similarly, I don't trust them to decide on the amount of thinning prism they're going to stick in there.

  13. #63
    Master OptiBoarder MakeOptics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    I kind of agree with most of that, but my bias is to trust the old corrected curve charts over the who knows what base curve the lab's software will dictate to me. Similarly, I don't trust them to decide on the amount of thinning prism they're going to stick in there.
    I'm OK with prism thinning but I use it more judiciously than the defaults. The old corrected curve charts are OK but they are missing a lot of data, plus the icrements available for older lenses were often 2 diopter apart 2, 4, 6, 8 base sometimes you get a 10. Digitally surfacing can allow the power that falls between two curves to be optimized.

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    Right, but I'm still pretty leery of digital surfacing. Is it just me or does anyone else often see little tool marks, polished well, but visible lines across the surface resembling a plowed field viewed from afar? Best visualized by focusing on the back surface with the lens held at arms length with a daylight blue sky background.

  15. #65
    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    Right, but I'm still pretty leery of digital surfacing. Is it just me or does anyone else often see little tool marks, polished well, but visible lines across the surface resembling a plowed field viewed from afar? Best visualized by focusing on the back surface with the lens held at arms length with a daylight blue sky background.
    Never seen it.

    I love my digital lenses. Best off-axis vision this myope has ever had.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

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    Redhot Jumper That is the best attitude you can have ...............................

    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post

    I love my digital lenses. Best off-axis vision this myope has ever had.

    That is the best attitude you can have in order to sell a product. You must be good at it.

  17. #67
    Master OptiBoarder MakeOptics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    Right, but I'm still pretty leery of digital surfacing. Is it just me or does anyone else often see little tool marks, polished well, but visible lines across the surface resembling a plowed field viewed from afar? Best visualized by focusing on the back surface with the lens held at arms length with a daylight blue sky background.

    Tool marks means the equipment needs calibration and the polish process needs to be looked at. The very same thing could and does happen with traditional grinding.
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    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeOptics View Post
    Tool marks means the equipment needs calibration and the polish process needs to be looked at. The very same thing could and does happen with traditional grinding.
    Correction: it happens more with traditional grinding.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    That is the best attitude you can have in order to sell a product. You must be good at it.
    Yeah, because obviously the only reason a seasoned optical professional would have good personal experience with a product would be so I can sell more of it.

    I've had enough trolling for now. Blocked.
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  20. #70
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    Redhot Jumper so I have no doubt that you will discount my post as well,

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboytelemark View Post

    You have systematically discounted the opinions of others in this thread, including those with way more expertise than I have, so I have no doubt that you will discount my post as well, and go on being the smartest person in the universe.

    This is a forum of opinions of mostly professional opticians, I assume, who post under a pseudonym and not their real name for any private reason or another, as they want.

    However I post under my real name among very few others, and all of us have a habit of sticking to facts as we learned, sometimes a long time ago.

    I am not the smartest person in the universe as you state, but have had a full time education in the optical profession for 6 years of learning and schooling.

    The thread turned out as I had expected it would, when it got started. It also got derailed as expected by some members, which is often the case.

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