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Thread: Why do we sell high-end lenses to mid/low income consumers? We're killing ourselves

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    The use of AR coated lenses is somewhere between 30 to 37% of glasses sold.

    See all the posts right here on OptiBoard on the retail prices of AR coatings.
    That still doesn't answer the question... So you are saying the 30 to 37% should not have it?? I don't get where you are coming from. We sell about 75% AR in our office with every pt given the pros and cons yet most still choose it. Do you still watch analog televisionor do you have the HD or plasma? Why did the person selling you the tv pressure you into buying that fancy hd when analog works just fine? And since the person selling it did not make the tv they should lower the price so you don't have to pay so much...our industry is no where near the mark up of the jewelry or electronics business yet you make it seem like we are crooks? Diamonds are basically a worthless rock that Du Beers diamonds told us was something we HAD to have and we pay ridiculous amounts of money for something that does absolutely nothing to enhance our lives. I just feel the comments from you and the original poster are quite a bit off base! Give people the choice and let them decide the value.

  2. #102
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    Blue Jumper What chem do you use for stripping .................

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post

    What chem do you use for stripping, and does it also take off the underlying hard coat and any tint?

    I make one since 1985 which then was the first such thing. These days it is used on nearly every continent.
    30 seconds to a minute to remove the AR and maybe a couple of minutes to take off the hard coat, and you have a brand new lens underneath. Will not remove tints.

    It is the only non dangerous on the market as it contains only 12.5%.
    acids.

    See all about it at: ==========>
    http://optochemicals.com/products/info_ar_stripper.htm

  3. #103
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    People don't expect a lens that costs twice as much to be twice as good. A diamond doesn't double in size when it doubles in price. A Rolex doesn't tell time twice as often as a cheap digital watch. The people who know quality know it is subject to the law of diminishing returns, and they are quite okay with that.

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    Blue Jumper Good for you if you sell 75% of your sales in AR .............................

    Quote Originally Posted by golfnut View Post

    That still doesn't answer the question... So you are saying the 30 to 37% should not have it?? I don't get where you are coming from. We sell about 75% AR in our office with every pt given the pros and cons yet most still choose it. Do you still watch analog televisionor do you have the HD or plasma? Why did the person selling you the tv pressure you into buying that fancy hd when analog works just fine?
    Good for you if you sell 75% of your sales in AR, while the statistics say the market on this continent is around the mid 30% range.

    I have never said opticians are crooks, I have known nothing else being born into it, having it learned all the way with top class schooling and education. Opticians have always done well. Good work and good markups and good incomes for right ones.

    I can tell you where I come from, I have done well in my life and purchased a flat 5 ft color TV going on the wall in 2001 when they still cost $ 9,999.00, and had a working fax, plus a computer connected to the internet, on my 50' yacht, all connected to my cellular telephone which weighed close to 10 lbs, already in the early 1990s when the phone company said it could never be done.

    However sadly enough the economy in general is not doing as well as your own private one, and if your largest suppliers are investing many hundreds of millions of Dollars in on-line optical retailing companies, to compete directly with you and all the others in the same boots, you should accept the facts and look forward into the very possible future.
    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 10-02-2015 at 12:02 AM.

  5. #105
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    I am in a unique position since I have about 300 accounts across 5 states of the western US, and visit another 400 practices a year. I SEE WHAT WORKS. Plus before I came back to the lab side I dispensed and managed huge opticals for 12 years.

    Strangely, my busiest and fastest growing accounts TAKE NO MANAGED CARE. Accepting managed care is not a function of your area, its a function of your marketing. I have an account that is in 70% VSP area, doesn't take VSP, yet is going to gross $5mil this year in the optical side alone. The owner Dr. makes so much money he just bought his mom a house in Malibu. For most of his frame vendors, he is their largest retailer in the world. Yes, he gets free trips to Paris every year to buy frames and takes the ENTIRE staff with him at his expense.

    How does he do this? Super service and great quality, even though he is in a lower middle class area, in an out of the way location. The service is so legendary people FLY in to buy multiple pairs of eyewear (he has an inventory of about 1500 pairs). He is 100% AR, 100% Free-form in Progressives and picks each Progressive lens based on the patients lifestyle or RX. Everything he offers is top line quality. His turn is over 4.2 to 1, so yes, he is selling over 6400 pairs a year. His frames are all very high quality and unique, no Kate Spade or Coach here. For many of his lines he has exclusivity for about 100 miles or more. His products are all top notch, but his markup is below what most charge. He is so busy he has to put of stanchions outside during Dec and Jan to keep the line outside in order (yes, people wait to get in). High end products but warm and friendly service, at reasonable pricing.

    The biggest problem he faces is that his frame orders are so large, it can take manufacturers months to fulfill them.

    I also visit many practices who don't get it. If you want success, you need great quality, great service, and then insurance or Warby simply won't matter. Create your own market. Create your own brand. Do both with knock your socks off service.

    Managed care has peaked, its jumping the shark, Warby Parker and Managed Care are a threat, but only if your product quality is low and your service is average. No matter where you are people will pay for selection, quality, and life enhancing eyewear. The Dr above charges below average but reasonable pricing, but its not what you charge, its what you provide. Value becomes a decision based on soley price when the other factors are missing like excitement, selection, and quality.

    Private Practice can never compete on price. But you can still beat Costco, Warby and anyone on Value. Create an experience and you'll steal patients from Costco every day.


    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post
    In my humble opinion, looking at what we do as selling products is the mistake, whatever our strategy. In an industry increasingly dominated by managed care, big box stores, same-day service, and online, the one thing we have the unique ability to sell is ourselves: our expertise, our customer service, and our customized products. I'm not selling eyewear, I'm selling a relationship with my practice. The money doesn't come from the initial sale, it comes from years of repeat business, from their family, from referrals.

    Remember also that perceived value is possibly more important than actual value. Some patients want to leave the office feeling like they've outsmarted a salesperson and only paid the bare minimum. (Some of these patients are the wealthiest you'll ever see, incidentally.) Some want to leave knowing that they've been dispensed the latest and greatest technology known to humanity, regardless of the price. (Some of these patients will actually boast of the price they paid for their glasses at dinner parties.) Anyone who has ever nodded their head when reading here of the problem jobs that get put on the "magic shelf" and returned unchanged to a delighted patient know how much perception shapes reality in this business.

    Be accessible to all kinds of patients with all kinds of needs. Have product available for a wide variety of requests. I find that the "good-better-best" model (with "fair" available for the very price-conscious) works exceptionally well. Don't make your patient's budget for them; recommend the best for their needs and give them options. Educate them and let them decide.

    Know your own market and adapt to serve it. There is no one-kind-fits-all model in optics.
    Last edited by sharpstick777; 10-06-2015 at 11:31 AM.

  6. #106
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    I hope his staff is well paid, and even sharing in "his" success.

    If not...

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    I am in a unique position since I have about 300 accounts across 5 states of the western US, and visit another 400 practices a year. I SEE WHAT WORKS. Plus before I came back to the lab side I dispensed and managed huge opticals for 12 years.

    Strangely, my busiest and fastest growing accounts TAKE NO MANAGED CARE. Accepting managed care is not a function of your area, its a function of your marketing. I have an account that is in 70% VSP area, doesn't take VSP, yet is going to gross $5mil this year in the optical side alone. The owner Dr. makes so much money he just bought his mom a house in Malibu. For most of his frame vendors, he is their largest retailer in the world. Yes, he gets free trips to Paris every year to buy frames and takes the ENTIRE staff with him at his expense.

    How does he do this? Super service and great quality, even though he is in a lower middle class area, in an out of the way location. The service is so legendary people FLY in to buy multiple pairs of eyewear (he has an inventory of about 1500 pairs). He is 100% AR, 100% Free-form in Progressives and picks each Progressive lens based on the patients lifestyle or RX. Everything he offers is top line quality. His turn is over 4.2 to 1, so yes, he is selling over 6400 pairs a year. His frames are all very high quality and unique, no Kate Spade or Coach here. For many of his lines he has exclusivity for about 100 miles or more. His products are all top notch, but his markup is below what most charge. He is so busy he has to put of stanchions outside during Dec and Jan to keep the line outside in order (yes, people wait to get in). High end products but warm and friendly service, at reasonable pricing.

    The biggest problem he faces is that his frame orders are so large, it can take manufacturers months to fulfill them.

    I also visit many practices who don't get it. If you want success, you need great quality, great service, and then insurance or Warby simply won't matter. Create your own market. Create your own brand. Do both with knock your socks off service.

    Managed care has peaked, its jumping the shark, Warby Parker and Managed Care are a threat, but only if your product quality is low and your service is average. No matter where you are people will pay for selection, quality, and life enhancing eyewear. The Dr above charges below average but reasonable pricing, but its not what you charge, its what you provide. Value becomes a decision based on soley price when the other factors are missing like excitement, selection, and quality.

    Private Practice can never compete on price. But you can still beat Costco, Warby and anyone on Value. Create an experience and you'll steal patients from Costco every day.
    Is he hiring? ;-)
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    Strangely, my busiest and fastest growing accounts TAKE NO MANAGED CARE. Accepting managed care is not a function of your area, its a function of your marketing. I have an account that is in 70% VSP area, doesn't take VSP, yet is going to gross $5mil this year in the optical side alone. The owner Dr. makes so much money he just bought his mom a house in Malibu. For most of his frame vendors, he is their largest retailer in the world. Yes, he gets free trips to Paris every year to buy frames and takes the ENTIRE staff with him at his expense.

    How does he do this? Super service and great quality, even though he is in a lower middle class area, in an out of the way location. The service is so legendary people FLY in to buy multiple pairs of eyewear (he has an inventory of about 1500 pairs). He is 100% AR, 100% Free-form in Progressives and picks each Progressive lens based on the patients lifestyle or RX. Everything he offers is top line quality. His turn is over 4.2 to 1, so yes, he is selling over 6400 pairs a year. His frames are all very high quality and unique, no Kate Spade or Coach here. For many of his lines he has exclusivity for about 100 miles or more. His products are all top notch, but his markup is below what most charge. He is so busy he has to put of stanchions outside during Dec and Jan to keep the line outside in order (yes, people wait to get in). High end products but warm and friendly service, at reasonable pricing.
    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if he only sells luxury, and sells 6,400 frames, he'd better be grossing a heck of a lot more than $5 million. Even if he's going the low end on the luxury, (which if he is having them made as he orders them he's not), his COGs would have to be close to half of that. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for rent, payroll, and other overhead; let alone the extra Malibu house.
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

  9. #109
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    Blue Jumper


    I have about 300 accounts across 5 states of the western US, and visit another 400 practices a year. I SEE WHAT WORKS.

    He is so busy he has to put of stanchions outside during Dec and Jan to keep the line outside in order (yes, people wait to get in). High end products but warm and friendly service, at reasonable pricing.
    1) 300 Accounts plus another 400 that is 700 accounts to see over 5 states. If you see and spend some time with them, you could do about 4 per day including travelling. 1100 per year at least twice, you are on the road for 550 days a year.


    2) How about posting a picture of this, that would also make every optical trade rag on the front page. Do the customers also line up in a snow storm ?
    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 10-07-2015 at 01:51 AM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    1) 300 Accounts plus another 400 that is 700 accounts to see over 5 states. If you see and spend some time with them, you could do about 4 per day including travelling. 1100 per year at least twice, you are on the road for 550 days a year.


    2) How about posting a picture of this, that would also make every optical trade rag on the front page. Do the customers also line up in a snow storm ?
    I think what he's saying is that he has 300 accounts and cold calls another 400 accounts.
    So when you are cold calling you really don't spend a lot of time with the account (unless there is some interest).
    I know you've been out of the business for some time Chris but you should know this.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if he only sells luxury, and sells 6,400 frames, he'd better be grossing a heck of a lot more than $5 million. Even if he's going the low end on the luxury, (which if he is having them made as he orders them he's not), his COGs would have to be close to half of that. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for rent, payroll, and other overhead; let alone the extra Malibu house.
    I'm with you. Something doesn't add up. If he's open 5 days a week, that's about 24 pair a day. 6 days, 20 pair a day, 7 days, 17 pair a day. If he's got stanchions OUTSIDE the office, either it's a one man shop, and that man works pretty slowly, or it's a many employee shop and they're all working like snails. If it's a smooth operation, he should be grossing at least 6.4 mil, and if not, maybe his net is zilch, or he's passing cheap stuff off as high end. If I've missed something, then he needs to expand his operation dramatically so people don't have to stand outside, except maybe during special events. That is customer abuse.
    Last edited by Dr. Bill Stacy; 10-07-2015 at 12:49 PM.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    I'm with you. Something doesn't add up. If he's open 5 days a week, that's about 24 pair a day. 6 days, 20 pair a day, 7 days, 17 pair a day. If he's got stanchions OUTSIDE the office, either it's a one man shop, and that man works pretty slowly, or it's a many employee shop and their all working like snails. If it's a smooth operation, he should be grossing at least 6.4 mil, and if not, maybe his net is zilch, or he's passing cheap stuff off as high end. If I've missed something, then he needs to expand his operation dramatically so people don't have to stand outside, except maybe during special events. That is customer abuse.
    Especially if they flew in an airplane. They already stood in line at the airport. Enough is enough!

  13. #113
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    Blue Jumper Yes I remember the days of cold calling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post


    I know you've been out of the business for some time Chris but you should know this.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

    Yes I remember the days of cold calling when I was building up the frame company. It is hard and discouraging as well as time consuming.

    My biggest break was in Toronto with father Faibish of Crown optical who gave me a $ 10,000 order at 7am, and recommended me to 2 friends who gave me the same order before lunch time.

    That made my day and was a start of booming business for many years in Ontario.

  14. #114
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    the $5 mil figure and on the low side, no exams, medical or CLs. That is another ton of money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but if he only sells luxury, and sells 6,400 frames, he'd better be grossing a heck of a lot more than $5 million. Even if he's going the low end on the luxury, (which if he is having them made as he orders them he's not), his COGs would have to be close to half of that. That doesn't leave a whole lot of room for rent, payroll, and other overhead; let alone the extra Malibu house.

  15. #115
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    Exactly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post
    I think what he's saying is that he has 300 accounts and cold calls another 400 accounts.
    So when you are cold calling you really don't spend a lot of time with the account (unless there is some interest).
    I know you've been out of the business for some time Chris but you should know this.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

  16. #116
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    Its an average size dispensary, with a ton of people coming through at end of year, he will do 90 pair a day during the last few days of December.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    I'm with you. Something doesn't add up. If he's open 5 days a week, that's about 24 pair a day. 6 days, 20 pair a day, 7 days, 17 pair a day. If he's got stanchions OUTSIDE the office, either it's a one man shop, and that man works pretty slowly, or it's a many employee shop and they're all working like snails. If it's a smooth operation, he should be grossing at least 6.4 mil, and if not, maybe his net is zilch, or he's passing cheap stuff off as high end. If I've missed something, then he needs to expand his operation dramatically so people don't have to stand outside, except maybe during special events. That is customer abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    Its an average size dispensary, with a ton of people coming through at end of year, he will do 90 pair a day during the last few days of December.
    Now you're talking. So I'm thinking he's got a pretty large staff to run this? Which brings us back to the original issue, is he really high end, or just high priced? I consider a high end frame and lens package to be around $1K to the patient without insurance. I know, I may be a bit low for some high end stuff. I hear Lindberg has some diamond encrusted frames that will retail around $25K. I price "normal" Lindbergs around $650 for the frame itself. People using eyemed or vsp usually have a frame copay of around $400 for a Lindberg, depending on their plan's "allowance". What brands do you sell him?

  18. #118
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    He is much lower priced than most high end shops... he usually runs a 2x + $60-$75 mark up on frames. he has a relatively smaller staff of only 7 Opticians, no techs or receptionists. Many of his frames are unique to the US. his routine exams are all cash so he doesn't really have a billing person. He bulk purchases so he gets some really good pricing. The office looks fairly small, he decorates it himself (he just had the entire interior painted in a comic book theme) he changes the interior every 2 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bill Stacy View Post
    Now you're talking. So I'm thinking he's got a pretty large staff to run this? Which brings us back to the original issue, is he really high end, or just high priced? I consider a high end frame and lens package to be around $1K to the patient without insurance. I know, I may be a bit low for some high end stuff. I hear Lindberg has some diamond encrusted frames that will retail around $25K. I price "normal" Lindbergs around $650 for the frame itself. People using eyemed or vsp usually have a frame copay of around $400 for a Lindberg, depending on their plan's "allowance". What brands do you sell him?

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    I have another account, in a small/medium city, that has a reception desk bigger than most dispensaries, they can receive 12 patients at time.. I only make a small % of lenses for them so I have no idea on their total financials... but they have 11 Doctors, both MD and OD. 14 Opticians, their own surgery center, valet parking and a shuttle bus... and no managed care (but take a lot of medical ins). They own their market. Even when I drop in I have to "register" with the practice manager and get a special name badge. Again, great service, their patients love them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    He is much lower priced than most high end shops... he usually runs a 2x + $60-$75 mark up on frames. he has a relatively smaller staff of only 7 Opticians, no techs or receptionists. Many of his frames are unique to the US. his routine exams are all cash so he doesn't really have a billing person. He bulk purchases so he gets some really good pricing. The office looks fairly small, he decorates it himself (he just had the entire interior painted in a comic book theme) he changes the interior every 2 years.
    Wow. Almost the exact formula I use for frames.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    I have another account, in a small/medium city, that has a reception desk bigger than most dispensaries, they can receive 12 patients at time.. I only make a small % of lenses for them so I have no idea on their total financials... but they have 11 Doctors, both MD and OD. 14 Opticians, their own surgery center, valet parking and a shuttle bus... and no managed care (but take a lot of medical ins). They own their market. Even when I drop in I have to "register" with the practice manager and get a special name badge. Again, great service, their patients love them.
    "take a lot of medical ins" means they DO take managed care. Very few MD and OD owned practices don't take ANY managed care in the USA other than those who for one reason or another cannot participate (termination for cause, employment situation, credentialing gap, uninsurability, etc.). Some of the loudest critics of managed care are in that group, but in their complaining don't seem to want to mention those circumstances. There may be exceptions, but I've never seen one. Obviously, some plans are not worth "taking" and most docs do pick and choose the ones they can join or want to join.

  22. #122
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    @Sharpstick, is this account in California? I'm only looking for a yes or no.

  23. #123
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    Blue Jumper @Sharpstick, is this account in California?

    Quote Originally Posted by ak47 View Post

    @Sharpstick, is this account in California? I'm only looking for a yes or no.


    No answer is also an answer.

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