On line CE for Opticians, should there be limits?

[ziggy]

Paul- Have you taken an on line course? If not I'd suggest you go to OTI and try one. It may surprise you.

Thanks for the replies, I have taken many fine courses on line, as a matter of fact I got all of my courses last year on line. I did this to see if really was quicker and wanted to see the quality. I took mostly Level II courses and was able to do 12 hours in 2hours 45 minutes. I’m not saying that online courses should be banned for renewal of Ohio's license, I just think there should be a limit, maybe 50/50. There is so much to be gained from interacting with other Opticians and being able to ask questions in a live seminar. I think that even Darryl would agree with that. I don’t Know how many times after reading a paper he wrote, I would have to call and ask for an explanation, he was always very gracious with his time.

[Uilleann]

Over the decades, I have yet to attend a live ce class that was any better than most online courses. And that includes levels 1, 2 or 3. The "master" optician taught classes have - almost with perfect certainty - been the very worst in terms of both content and presentation.

Go figure.

[ziggy]

duplicate

[Uncle Fester]

Thanks for the replies, I have taken many fine courses on line, as a matter of fact I got all of my courses last year on line. I did this to see if really was quicker and wanted to see the quality. I took mostly Level II courses and was able to do 12 hours in 2hours 45 minutes. I’m not saying that online courses should be banned for renewal of Ohio's license, I just think there should be a limit, maybe 50/50. There is so much to be gained from interacting with other Opticians and being able to ask questions in a live seminar. I think that even Darryl would agree with that. I don’t Know how many times after reading a paper he wrote, I would have to call and ask for an explanation, he was always very gracious with his time.

So it does look like your mind is made up and we know how you're going to vote. Please don't take that the wrong way. Just calling it like I see it.

I wish you could require they be done during work hours with pay for us professional laborers! I'll bet everyone would be on board for that!!!

[rbaker]

What with the internet and all the formal schools I would think that some really great continuing education programs could be put in place for the benefit of everyone. Apparently the talent, skill and ability are lacking in the industry.

[Uncle Fester]

What with the internet and all the formal schools I would think that some really great continuing education programs could be put in place for the benefit of everyone. Apparently the talent, skill and ability are lacking in the industry.

Where's the profit?

Unless you think it should be a Socialist endeavor.

Off to Myrtle Beach...See you guys in 10 days!!!

[ziggy]

So it does look like mind is made up and we know how you're going to vote. Please don't take that the wrong way. Just calling it like I see it.

Being that you’re the "compulsive truth teller" I wouldn’t expect anything else! I wouldn’t say my mind is "made up" on anything. I just haven’t seen any reason to continue to have unlimited online CEs. Not having to get up on a day off, or being able to do them quicker seems to be a poor reason. So if there is a good reason I’d love to hear it. BTW are you in Ohio?

[MakeOptics]

Yes, there should be limits and here is why.

1) I can print the article and reference while I take the test.
2) I can have a second browser window open and search for key works from the question and cross reference to the article.
3) If I have a question on the content I have no way to get and answer, reduced level of understanding.
4) I learn just as much if not more from engaging the speaker and attendees both before and after the CE.

[Wes]

Interesting, I have, like the rest of you have been to a ton of in person CE, I have seen far fewer people sleeping or not paying attention than I have seen people doing their on-line CE's "together". Not to mention that I have never, ever, taken a 1 hour on line course that has taken an hour. I have to have 12 hours of CE's every year, I took all of mine on line last year and it took me 2 hours 45 min. that seems to me to be counterproductive to the “continuing education” aspect of the process.

If I can get a degree online, why can't I take a CE online? At least with the online CE, I have to prove I know the material by taking a test. So what if it took me less than an hour to do my 12 "hours" for this renewal period? Does that make you assume I do- or don't- know the material?
What I like about in person CEs, is I get to socialize with other local opticians, and I can talk story with the presenter. I learn more on Optiboard than from any version of CE.

[rbaker]

What I like about in person CEs, is I get to socialize with other local opticians, and:

And, network. Network, network, network. More career advances are gained through networking than perhaps any other source. Remember, you really cant BS your boss but you can romance the bejesus out of a prospective employer over a few single malt scotches in the bar after a course, seminar or State Association meeting.

[ziggy]

If I can get a degree online, why can't I take a CE online?

With every online degree program that I am aware of, you have to do the work. There is no way to have someone else do your CE's, or “give you the answers”. There is verification of some kind, a proctor or web cam. Some of the online schools require that you come to the school to take exams. YOU are the one having to do the work.

[optical24/7]

And in person CE's, you don't have to do anything but breath!

[ziggy]

Both sides of the issue have merit. There is nothing anybody can do to mandate that people become more knowledgeable, that being said, giving the slugs in the industry a easy out is in my opinion not an option. If they have to show up for a seminar maybe they might learn something.

[Wes]

With every online degree program that I am aware of, you have to do the work. There is no way to have someone else do your CE's, or “give you the answers”. There is verification of some kind, a proctor or web cam. Some of the online schools require that you come to the school to take exams. YOU are the one having to do the work.

I did the "work" for my CEs too!

[optical24/7]

I think my main complaint of in person mandated CE's are the unfair logistics for some opticians. Many times they are held only in one city. That's fine for the folks that live there or close by, but what about the opticians that live a good distance away? They have extra travel expenses and possibly lodging expenses too. Not very fair IMHO.

[TEdFitz]

Maybe asking the students attending in-person or on-line continuing education units/credits isn't the best method for gathering info on the subject...Have you talked to a couple of the nearest colleges for their opinion/stats regarding the future of both modes of education?

[ziggy]

I did the "work" for my CEs too!

you did but there is a lot that dont. that is my point.

[ziggy]

Maybe asking the students attending in-person or on-line continuing education units/credits isn't the best method for gathering info on the subject...Have you talked to a couple of the nearest colleges for their opinion/stats regarding the future of both modes of education?

Yes as a matter of fact I have and at least the schools that I have spoken with say that there is no definitive study on the issue. That was the first place that I started. I have also looked at other professions and what they do. There is no correlation between what the person does and the amount of on line CEs that are accepted. For example, unless Im mistaken, in Ohio the OD’s are only able to have 40% online whereas the Ophthalmologist are able to get ALL of their CEs on line.

[wmcdonald]

With every online degree program that I am aware of, you have to do the work. There is no way to have someone else do your CE's, or “give you the answers”. There is verification of some kind, a proctor or web cam. Some of the online schools require that you come to the school to take exams. YOU are the one having to do the work.

Paul, I am sorry my friend, but that is not correct, and you are that I have taught online for many years. To eliminate this concern we must design the courses effectively. It is all in the assessment. One of the issues brought up by my faculty colleagues is that we can't be sure students are actually doing the work, and that can easily be addressed. The research is clear......online and face-to-face education has equivalent outcomes.

Keep in mind that most of the boards are comprised of folks who have never set foot in a college classroom, and now they are evaluating the validity of something proven long ago! The truth is that associations make their money on CE attendance, and there is nothing wrong with that. What these associations should consider is doing something to represent their members and make it attractive for them to join. Now. they all tout the great work they do, but if the progression of this field is evidence of that great work I do not see it.

Online CE participants take a test and send it in. Some here are arguing the old Carnegie classification on 1-hour CEs. We now should be more worried about competencies, and not time in a seat........many who gain nothing from it. In reality, we gain little after 4- 5 hours of CE in a day anyway.

Just something for you to consider. I wish you good luck in your deliberations, and applaud you for asking.

[ziggy]

I think my main complaint of in person mandated CE's are the unfair logistics for some opticians.

This is also my biggest issue. But on the other side of the issue 7 states allow NO online CEs, another 4 limit the amount. The Opticians in these states have been renewing their licenses for years with apparently no issue. Prior to the advent of online CE we all had to go to courses. I know in a state like Texas getting to a live seminar may be an issue but I don’t think it would be the same in Ohio. For example, with in a 75 mile radius of Cincinnati there is at least 7 live courses a year.

[ziggy]

Paul, I am sorry my friend, but that is not correct, and you are that I have taught online for many years.

Guess I should have said on line Optician programs. And I may be wrong about that too. Thanks for your input Doc your counsel is always welcome.

[ziggy]

Some here are arguing the old Carnegie classification on 1-hour CEs.

I’m assuming that you’re referring to the "academic hour" 48-60 min?

[wmcdonald]

An academic hour, according to the 50+ year old Carnegie Foundation is like this:

1 Semester Hour Credit = 15 clock hours.

CE hours are: 1 clock hour = .10 CE credits at the typical university. Historically, most professional groups use 1= 1 (the 50 minutes comes in for bathroom breaks, etc.).

Interestingly, I have lectured for Ophthalmological groups, and Optometric groups, and they are far less stick regarding attendance. They merely must sign the sign in sheets (not every group, but many). We often act as though someone will cause cancer if they leave the room too long, which has always been quite amusing.

We in this field use CE (has you ever considered that we largely have little to no education to continue?) as fundraising for professional associations that often are run by well-meaning, but ill-equipped "leaders". The same is true for most state boards. High school educated folks making decisions about education and other professional requirements. Just food for further discussion.

Thanks again......it is interesting.

[buckeyeoptical]

With any type of education you only get out of it what you put into it. I complete 10+ hours of education each year just keeping up with new technologies.

I also go to OD conferences in Columbus that don't count for our CE either, even though it counts for the OD.

I have been licensed since 2003 and the CE requirements have been the same. So, Ziggy, what specifically has changed, or was there an incident that now warrants in-person CE?

The limitations of online CE are most likely only brought up by the Ohio Optician Association because they are the ones that will financially benefit from in-person.

I find it funny that you want us to do more in-person CE but allow a high school dropout with no optical knowledge to got online and order a pair of glasses with a progressive lens and take their own PD. And yes, the board does allow this.

The board should concentrate on protecting/enforcing opticianry in Ohio instead of making it more difficult for opticians to keep and maintain a license.

How about creating an equal playing field by making OD employed opticians follow the same guidelines as retail opticians. An RN is a RN no matter where they work, as is true with most medical professions. So why do two separate rules exist for opticians?

Why not try to protect the optician profession from online eyeglass manufacturers?

[Johns]

The limitations of online CE are most likely only brought up by the Ohio Optician Association because they are the ones that will financially benefit from in-person.

The board should concentrate on protecting/enforcing opticianry in Ohio instead of making it more difficult for opticians to keep and maintain a license.

First of all, kudos for getting all the education you can, regardless of whether you get credit for it. You are the type of person I would want to hire.

On the other hand, I think you are confusing the "board", with the "association". The association is a representative organization, while the board is a regulating/enforcing entity. They are totally separate and unrelated organizations. The board is for the protection of the consumer, and the association represents you.

The irony of all of this is that when you mention the association will "benefit" from live CEU's, the "they" is actually you! With the exception of the executive director, all the positions are volunteer. For the most part, they pay their own gas, lodging, and in many cases, use vacation days from work to attend meetings. Another irony is that the proceeds of the CEUs goes to help pay for legislative efforts directed at protecting you from, among other things, online eyeglass peddlers. The fewer dollars to the association, mean fewer dollars to fight our fights.