Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28

Thread: Should cross burning be a protected form of free speech?

  1. #1
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    4,948

    Should cross burning be a protected form of free speech?

    There is a case before the supreme court "that asks whether burning a cross is constitutionally protected expression or an overt threat that can be banned by the states."
    • Is the Klan's First Amendment freedom of speech being violated?
    • Even if their rights are being violated, is cross burning offensive enough and threatening enough that the meaning of the act is more important than Free Speech in these cases?
    • Is cross burning not a matter of expression at all but a threat implied by decades of terror?
    • If you burn a cross on someone else's property there are other laws against trespassing that cover the act but what about at Klan ralllies?
    I understand that there may be a great deal of history, especially emotional, that I might never be able to understand when it comes to burning a cross. I still think it is a detestable sight and not a bright spot in American history. If someone lit a cross in my front yard ,I would probably be terrified and angered myself. The question becomes are these feelings more important than the way an organization chooses to express themselves. I feel that if that organization implies harm by the act, then yes, it is more important to ban such demonstrations.

    America is still young and still experiencing growing pains. These are the decisions that will determine what type of nation we continue to evolve into.

  2. #2
    Rising Star lpdeen's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    56
    It is sad to think that the world is still in a state where people feel it necessary to fight for the right to display this type of anger and ignorance.
    Last edited by lpdeen; 12-13-2002 at 12:43 PM.

  3. #3
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Chester, VA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,598
    lpdeen said:
    It is sad to think that the world is still in a state where people feel it necessary to fight for the right to dislay this type of anger and ignorance.

    Well said, lpdeen!

    Jo, in 2 words ABSOFREAKINLUTELY NOT! No other symbol has or ever will again divide our nation! I get sick when the racists and white supremecists say it is a statement! It has always and will always represent hate and bigotry! It is meant for one reason and one reason only-to instill fear in the person it happens to.

    Just think back to the 60's and before almost always there was a hung body close or a beaten person! I feel it should be treated every time as a hate crime and prosecuted federally.

    Let's use this example....
    Suppose someone parks a ryder rental truck outside a federal building. Do you think that is free speech? Say that to the people of Oklahoma City!

    What if we did a fly by on a skyscraper as a statement?

    All three of these are meant to instill fear in the person it is intended for. Free speech doesn't cause fear and terror, it makes you think!
    Last edited by Cindy Hamlin; 12-12-2002 at 11:39 AM.
    ~Cindy

    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-

  4. #4
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Hickory Creek, TX
    Occupation
    Lens Manufacturer
    Posts
    4,964
    In their own annoyingly clueless manner, the Supreme Court justices seem to understand the crucial issue- namely, is burning a cross a form of intimidation or a form of free speech. After all, there can be no doubt that you could carry a sign all day saying "All Republicans are stupid, ignorant, and inferior to me!" However, what one can't do is carry a sign reading "I will kill Republicans who don't move out of my neighborhood in such a way that no one ever finds out!" Especially if the person holding the sign has a history of convictions regarding the murder and assualt of Republicans!

    On the one hand, there is no law saying we all have to like each other. On the other, we all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness- and that right is unquestionably impinged upon when one group intimidates another.

    Concerning hate crimes, I'm still not sure I understand the implications of the whole concept. Is the heinousness of a crime somehow increased or diminished because of the motive? If I kill you for the $125 in your wallet, is that somehow less punishable than if I kill you because you are taller than me and I happen to hate all people taller than me?

    Some people are moronic idiots. Some people have very peculiar and- in my opinion- misguided views concerning the value of certain people. However, the concept behind free speech is that no one gets to determine what gets to be said and what is censored. This would be a hard case to decide. If I were a Justice (for those of you who just gasped in horror at the thought, I am smiling just thinking of you), I would have to rule the law unconstitutional.

    IMHO, a constitutional version of this law would have to specifically ban the KKK from burning crosses- because the KKK has a proven history of intimidation and therefore the symbol moves from free speech to actual intimidation. Coincidentally, as much as I hate flag burning, I think any law prohibiting that act would certainly be unconstitutional.
    Pete Hanlin, ABOM
    Vice President Professional Services
    Essilor of America

    http://linkedin.com/in/pete-hanlin-72a3a74

  5. #5
    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Chattanooga TN.
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    973
    I guess I'll be the odd man out here (seems like that happens often:-) First if they want to stand around in a field and do it with a bunch of sheets on.. go ahead, you try that downtown, you are a fire hazard..
    I have watched a lot of programs as well as wrote a few papers when in College on the clan and did anyone notice that on any of the documentaries (or at least the ones I saw) it was usually only of hand full of kooks doing this? I think they thrive more on the "attention". .. You want to burn a cross? Go ahead, all you are burning in my opinion is a piece of wood.. it is the ideals I HAVE that makes my "cross" important icon to me, not the actual physical cross but it's representation.
    You have to tread lightly, even though you do NOT agree with their beliefs I still do not want to take away their freedom of expression.. that knife can cut both ways
    Personally I am glad that it is not a "secret" society any longer, in the light of day in public the VAST majority see how pathetic it is. If you KNOW who the morons are it sure is easier to keep a tab on them :-)
    I can give a great example, being here in the "south", when I had my store I had a room full of people waiting to be checked (had an Ophthalmologist refracting..always an hour behind) myself, my optician and tech was keeping the people entertained, one of the people waiting wanted to go down and grab a "beer", I explained to him "I am at work, and can not" and out of the blue here is his answer "well we don't allow n#$$%$ in" ..(BEFORE tossing him out of my store) I explained to him I have color blindness I see one color and that is GREEN, not the color of the hand I am getting it from :-) ..out of the 14 or so people that were sitting in the room one other got up and left when I tossed him out..now we had a big discussion (needless to say) among everyone left and one of the statements were "you should not let them come in to your store" (talking about the racists) my answer was I could care less, I prefer people to have the RIGHT to come in under their own choice than have them not have that CHOICE. Than it is MY RIGHT to chuck them out if they are an A$$..
    You want to go on private property out in the middle of who knows where and burn a piece of wood and give each other high five's and live in a fantasy world .. go ahead, you do it on someone else's property (front yard, public place) toss them in JAIL (already have laws against that)..you want to have a speech or march and get the proper permits, go ahead.. chances are very great you'll be out numbered by the people who disagree with you, they had a "rally" and march here in Orlando a few years back..9 whole clan people and about 4,000 people showed up against them :-).. but as long as you do not threaten anyone and just ramble on about "sending people back to "their" country" (how pathetic is that statement), you actually cause violence or become violent ..your going to jail.. I don't think that burning a cross makes, to any one that was crazy enough to actually commit a violent act against another human being, a difference one way or the other, they were a nut anyway
    I think we should have the RIGHT to be stupid if we want, to even do things the majority finds to be ignorant .. as long as it does NOT physically hurt anyone or physically damage anything publically .. You ignore them and chances are far greater they would disappear than grow, their are stupid ignorant people out their looking for attention, but I hope we sane tolerant people out number them a 10,000 to 1 :-) that is what these freedoms mean, just because you may not AGREE with what someone say and does, does NOT mean they do not have the freedom to do it.. Just ignore it, most intelligent people can differentiate between fantasy and reality :-)
    I think we are looking at this backwards, WE are looking at it as they are burning a cross that has a different meaning to us, while they are attaching something far different to it and it is the "act" that is more important..and the people who are there are going to be there no matter what.. you think ole bubba would change his mind in stay home if "the cross burning scheduled for this evenings festivities is canceled"..nope but let them think that "the cross burning was TAKEN away from us" they feel even more fervor.. KKK is on the decline, ignore them enough and the inbreeding will soon finish the work :-)

    just my .02 worth...

    Jeff "let them show there stupidity" Trail

  6. #6
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    4,948
    But, if things are like Cindy says and "...almost always there was a hung body close or a beaten person..." isn't burning a cross similar to yelling fire in a movie theater? You create panic and terror among a whole group of individuals.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Only City in the World built over a Volcano
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12,996
    No! But then Flag Burning ought to be an executeable-on-the spot offence. If one is legal "Free Speech" the other is legal "Free Speech."

    Chip:angry:

  8. #8
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    4,948
    Chip,

    That is a valid point. Is Flag Burning all that different? It also offends many people. If it was a person of middle eastern decent burning a flag, would we still be routing for the activist? Would we try to take away that person's rights to express themselves?

    Is Free Speech really a popularity contest?

    If we forbid burning crosses on private property, then we may allow an opening for more censorship then we are barganing for. Should we then ban the book Huck Finn from bookstores and libraries because of some of the language Mark Twain used?

    Do we really just want to bury some Americans' beliefs under the carpet because they come across as unseemly? Prejudice and bigotry exist. They won't go away if we ignore them. If we ignore them then they turn up in places where we are surprised to find them. Does America think ignorance is better than facing reality?

  9. #9
    Bad address email on file Mikol's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Scottsdale , Arizona
    Posts
    112

    AHHH

    Now where is the seperation of church and state?

    you can burn a flag and vote in a church!

    I love our country but am amazed at what lawyers are able to do with the law..........................

    Mikol

  10. #10
    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Chattanooga TN.
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    973
    Jo,


    I think you need to go back further than in the 60's to see the type of things she is talking about... they were at there peak in the mid 1800's to turn of the century.
    I do not think the clan of today is anywhere even CLOSE to what they were .. The Civil War left a trail of blood and bitterness that twisted its way through generations and set the stage for a frenzy of so called mob justice that killed thousands of men, women and children, most of them black. And between the years 1880 and 1905, a period of twenty-five years, not one person was ever convicted of any crime associated with these killings. Lynching's are, in effect, the most extensive series of unsolved murders in American history .. the clan was on the down hill slide until "Birth of a Nation" was directed by filmmaker D. W. Griffith (1875-1948) and released in 1915. It became an immediate sensation. which began a new interest into the Klan, in the 20's and 30's were the times of the worst era of lynching with the fading in the 40's and 50's ... I think it was more related to "economics" than anything, oh they dressed it up as racism but I still think with the depression and the times the problems in the 20 and 30's were tied more closely to economics, when people suffer they usually need something or someone to blame for their woes and tribulations, joining a group and having a "group mentaility" seems to be second nature to us, though it may be done in a stupid way and for stupid reasons with bad results... now the 40's through the late 50's were more or less strictly ignorant racism ... nothing even CLOSE to what was done in the mid to late 1800's but than again when you have a more educated society single acts can carry as much weight as vast multiple acts (as in the mid 19th century) .. take for instance, school shootings, how many were killed at Columbine? 13 students? BUT how many people are killed on a daily average in the US? This little number MIGHT make you think the national murder rate according to the Fed. is 5.5 per 100,000 people..now in population of the US on April 1, 2000 was 281,421,906 you do the math...SCARY huh ? In my research the last lynching I could find that was proven to be tied to the Klan was in 1959, Im sure that they are no "angels" and I do NOT approve or even come CLOSE to liking anything the espouse .. still when thinking about something as a "cross" burning in the full scope of things? ..oh well ...just some things to consider...I have tons of research on this stuff, and I really think if we just ignored it, it has been past it's time and is blowing away into a history book ....BTW you comparison of yelling "fire" in a movie theater and a "cross" burning are two different things, in a dark theater, it WOULD cause major panic and possible injury, you are one among a "group" of uniformed group of people (do not know there is a fire) but at a cross burning ? The people they hate, dislike or however you want to describe them are NOT going to be their, most probably by both of their own choice :-) The people who ARE going to be their to hear "fire" are the ones that wanted to be their to begin with.. and if you ever heard these people you would shake your head.. that "rally" I talked about in Orlando, I did actually "listen" to what they were saying, and if ANYONE was dumb enough to take to heart or give merit to the incoherant babble I heard..YIKES maybe we will get lucky and that cross will fall on their head!! :-) It was pretty pathetic and anyone with half a brain could shoot about a zillion holes through the "logic" of what they were trying to present..

    Chip,

    Tsk tsk, you mean you would actually KILL a person because they burned some cloth? ... IF they burned the flag would it make YOU any less patriotic? Would it do ANY physical harm to you? Is it doing any REAL harm to the country? Nope, it is usually some "whack" job who does it and MAKES sure the news camera's are there ... YEP
    You have to step back and look at the big picture, when someone does do something stupid like that, (I do NOT agree with burning of the flag), still it really does no "personal" harm to you, and definitely they should not be "executed on the spot"
    I have a strong military background all through my family, I appreciate the freedom we have and am proud to be an American, but there is no way I would EVER condone taking someone's life over a stupid act of burning a flag ...
    That flag is NOT my pride, that flag is NOT my freedom, does NOT give me my rights, patriotism and pride is something the should be INSIDE of a person, NOT dependent on that flag...

    NOW you TOUCH my DAUGHTER or my WIFE.. than we can talk about pulling out the guns ;)

    ALSO just my opinion...

    Jeff "I guess there goes my votes for opti board person of the year" Trail
    Last edited by Jeff Trail; 12-13-2002 at 01:25 AM.

  11. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Only City in the World built over a Volcano
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12,996
    Mikol: The Constitution does not provide for the "separation of Church and State". It mearly says that the State may not establish or impose a State religion. The Church on the other hand can do anything it wants to the state, except cause the State to establish it as a requirement.


    Jeff:

    If the flag is worth dying for, is it not worth killing for? And, Yes if the United States were to return to something resembling what the Constitution Describes, I think it's worth dying for. I also think any and all threats to the United States should be destroyed.

    Even though, if many of the "Big Brother" tactics are put in force, I my be one of these threats, let them kill me. I have enough of the blood of my ancestors in me to belive Valla Halla awaits one who puts up a good fight. I already know I have been too evil for Heaven.

    Chip

  12. #12
    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Chattanooga TN.
    Occupation
    Optical Wholesale Lab (other positions)
    Posts
    973
    chip anderson said:

    If the flag is worth dying for, is it not worth killing for? And, Yes if the United States were to return to something resembling what the Constitution Describes, I think it's worth dying for. I also think any and all threats to the United States should be destroyed.

    Chip

    Chip,

    I think that is the point where we depart, it is NOT the flag per se' I am or would die for, that flag is just a symbol, it is America that you are defending :-)
    We may have troubles, politically, and of course not a perfect society, but as a whole when everything is taken into consideration we are pretty lucky compared to a lot of places in this troubled world, or I think so.. we can pretty well go anywhere we like and can sit here and say things (even on this site) that in some countries WOULD be illegal...that was my whole point on both issues in this thread.. you have to maintain a basic degree of rules, safety, health and freedom.. BUT just because you disagree with someone's actions you should not stop them by trying to pass another law.. who is to say that the next person sitting in that seat of authority will not swing the other direction and against your point of view?
    You want a free society as well as an "educated" and informed society.. you need to let people have a lattitude in what they may do or say, as well as the right to not listen and to oppose those points of view :-) That is part of having "freedom", if you decide that someone is not saying what you like and to make that illegal that knife can cut both ways..That is what is all about, you can do things that may or may not be popular, but you can still do it :-)

    Jeff "grind'em if ya got'em" Trail

  13. #13
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Chester, VA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,598
    Jo said:
    Chip,
    That is a valid point. Is Flag Burning all that different? It also offends many people. If it was a person of middle eastern decent burning a flag, would we still be routing for the activist? Would we try to take away that person's rights to express themselves?
    Jo,
    I must start by saying that my career Marine Daddy would, if he were still alive, smack me in the head hard for this, but....

    They aren't the same thing. People burn flags to protest the war and the US. Nobody ever was killed or beaten proceeding a flag burning!

    I think it all stems from the civil rights protests. The burning cross and the acts surrounding it were a very divisive time in our past and many people were hurt and killed trying to be equal. I believe in the eyes of God we are all equal, but in the eyes of certain of mankind they are still working on that notion!

    Time doesn't seem to make this pain go away! I applaud the state of Virginia for this step. We, until recently, combined Martin Luther King's holiday with Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee Day. That bothered me. We combined the birthday of a noted civil rights leader with the day to celebrate the giants of the civil war. I had a problem with that.

    Our last governor, Gilmore, broke out the MLK holiday to another day to give him the due he deserves! About 2 years ago at the foot of the statue of Arthur Ashe (the tennis player and Richmond native) David Duke held a rally for the clan! Did he do this because it was a great place or for the publicity for his cause it would (no doubt) receive? Since then we have had several clan gatherings and they have been met with more protesters than people attending! Good for the protesters!

    The cross burning they were convicted of (which started this whole matter) was in the yard of an interracial couple in Virginia Beach!

    I applaud the state of Virginia for this law and feel it is an attempt to right the wrongs of year's passed! I applaud my state!
    ~Cindy

    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-

  14. #14
    Optical Educator
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Tampa, Florida
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    1,044

    flag burning...

    In my opinion, the only flag that should be burned is the Confederate Flag!


    Happy Holidays, Everyone,

    Laurie

  15. #15
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Back in AZ
    Occupation
    Other Eyecare-Related Field
    Posts
    10,252
    Free speech is obviously a complicated issue. In my opinion, cross-burning *and* flag-burning (as reprehensible as they are) are both protected forms of speech in most cases. The first amendment is useless if forms of speech are repressed simply because we find them offensive. The only restrictions should be when other rights and/or public safety is affected. For instance no one has the right to burn a cross on my lawn - or a U.S. flag at the local Veterans Hall.

    The tricky issue is the one of 'public safety'. You can reasonably argue that any form of speech that elicits a strong emotional response could affect public safety. However if we apply this standard in it's strictest interpretation, then virtually all controversial speech is subject to restriction. This is obviously not a good thing and certainly was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. In the end, a careful evalutation of each specific instance is required to ensure the balance of rights are protected.


    OptiBoard Administrator
    ----
    OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Only City in the World built over a Volcano
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12,996
    Laurie: Now you are getting pretty damn nasty!


    Steve: Andrew Jackson once sacked a town (Canadian) for "insulting" the U.S. Flag. Would that it be we still had presidents and leaders with such cahonies.

  17. #17
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Back in AZ
    Occupation
    Other Eyecare-Related Field
    Posts
    10,252
    chip anderson said:
    Steve: Andrew Jackson once sacked a town (Canadian) for "insulting" the U.S. Flag. Would that it be we still had presidents and leaders with such cahonies.
    Chip, what limitations would you place on the First Amendment, particularly in light of your strong opposal to any limitation on the Second Amendment. And how do you reconcile the apparent inconsistency?


    OptiBoard Administrator
    ----
    OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.

  18. #18
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    4,948
    Cindy Hamlin said:
    The cross burning they were convicted of (which started this whole matter) was in the yard of an interracial couple in Virginia Beach!
    Cindy,

    That was one of the instances in Virginia. You could argue that more than one law was broken in that case, trespassing and vandalism for example among others. The other case involved a cross burning at a KKK rally that took place in a members field - his own private property. This is the instance that makes me wonder if those KKK member's rights may have been violated. I don't like or support the KKK but they do have a right to free speech the same as any of us do.

    Laurie said:
    In my opinion, the only flag that should be burned is the Confederate Flag!
    Wouldn't we then also have to go out and burn every other flag that represents a party or country we don't agree with? The Native Americans were here first; what if the tribes went to the Supreme Court and wanted the Stars and Stripes burned because of the war in which the US took their land?

  19. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Only City in the World built over a Volcano
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12,996
    Steve: Speech is the spoken or written word. No restrictions. Acts and illustrations are different. You would not like me to display an unbecoming picture of a member of your family in an unbecoming postion or situation and call it "art."

    The US flag symbolizes all that this country stands for and all that it's citizens have died for, it should not be defiled just so a bunch of socially usless druggies could pretent the have meaning to thier lives.

    Chip:angry:

  20. #20
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2000
    Location
    Back in AZ
    Occupation
    Other Eyecare-Related Field
    Posts
    10,252
    So you put a much narrower definition on 'speech' then is typically done.

    Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
    I can understand that. However I believe 'speech' includes non-verbal forms of protest as well. I also believe that most constitutional scholars and Supreme Court decisions are in agreement with this stance - not that this would hold much weight with you. ;)

    In my mind it's clear that the Founding Fathers intended to protect the right of people to protest the acts of government in more than just the narrow definition of 'words'. More importantly, I believe this is exactly what makes this country great - people can protest against their government to a much greater extent than is allowed elsewhere.

    The US flag symbolizes all that this country stands for and all that it's citizens have died for, it should not be defiled just so a bunch of socially useless druggies could pretent the have meaning to thier lives.
    Forgetting the irrelevant 'socially useless druggies' comment, the flag *is* a symbol of our freedoms. Do we really do it honor by reducing freedom and the right to protest?

    Don't get me wrong, I become very angry whenever I see the American Flag desecrated It's an extremely insulting act. However under certain circumstances it is protected speech.

    Note: Some of the Viet Nam war protesters were incredibly stupid to burn the flag in their protests. All it did was stiffen resistance to their message and end up prolonging the war.


    OptiBoard Administrator
    ----
    OptiBoard has been proudly serving the Eyecare Community since 1995.

  21. #21
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Only City in the World built over a Volcano
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12,996
    Gee: I'm having fun with this!

    One of the most blattent problems in our country is the Supreme Court (which actually is foolish enough think it is the highest court when there are two that are higher) writing laws, instead of interpreting the ones that exhist.

    Chip

    I can hardly wait til we get to abortion next, where I have some real stoggy opinions. Of course it's hard to relate a lot of this stuff to the optical business.
    Last edited by chip anderson; 12-13-2002 at 11:30 PM.

  22. #22
    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    USA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    4,948
    chip anderson said:

    One of the most blattent problems in our country is the Supreme Court ...
    I agree with Chip on this one, especially as of late. Perhaps Chip is also correct in that Big Brother is not too far off.

  23. #23
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Only City in the World built over a Volcano
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    12,996
    For those of you who do not fear the DOD database with the argument that: "As long as you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to worry about."

    It didn't help Jesus Christ much.


    Chip

  24. #24
    Master OptiBoarder Night Train's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Marysville, PA USA
    Occupation
    Consumer or Non-Eyecare field
    Posts
    860

    Am I Stupid?

    Am I stupid? As I followed this thread I kept seeing arguments very similar to Gun Control Arguments. The gun rights advocates say that if you take away guns that shoot a gazillion rounds a second then pretty soon you'll be after my pea shooter. NONSENSE! My brother is married to a black woman and has had the "lovely" experience of having a cross burned in his yard(Twice actually). Keep in mind, these are people who lead quiet lives and do not provoke such things. Cross burning is only done because stupid, ignorant hate. It ought to be banned. We dont need a "Right" to burn crosses and it is possible to make it illegal without it starting a "slippery slope" of taking away more and more rights. While I'm at it, pornography is another thing that needs to cracked down on. Has anyone every understood completely the harm that pornography brings to woman, families, societies? I very much am blessed and thankful for America and for my freedoms but some lines need to be drawn. Who will draw them and where? Those we elect. And if we elect morons then we can choke on our own vomit. We are free to vote and NOT voting is just another way of saying "I dont care".

  25. #25
    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Chester, VA
    Occupation
    Dispensing Optician
    Posts
    2,598

    Re: Am I Stupid?

    Night Train said:
    My brother is married to a black woman and has had the "lovely" experience of having a cross burned in his yard(Twice actually). Keep in mind, these are people who lead quiet lives and do not provoke such things. Cross burning is only done because stupid, ignorant hate. It ought to be banned. We dont need a "Right" to burn crosses and it is possible to make it illegal without it starting a "slippery slope" of taking away more and more rights.
    Well said, Night Train!
    ~Cindy

    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Free Form & Independent Labs
    By johntricity in forum General Optics and Eyecare Discussion Forum
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 11-22-2003, 09:41 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •