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Thread: Survey: In Office Edging - Still Feasible and Cost Effective?

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    Lightbulb Survey: In Office Edging - Still Feasible and Cost Effective?

    Q. #1: With all of the numerous pricey HD lenses and super slippery AR's on the market today, how many of you are still taking the risk and edging in house to avoid the $10-$20 edging charge?

    Q. #2: If your lab supplier were to offer no charge edge and mount on these products, would you pony up more volume to that supplier?

    Q. #3: What is your main reason for self edging? Time? Service? Quality? Control freak? Picky?

    Q. #4: What percentage of offices do you think are still edging in house? (OD & Optician)

    Thanks in advance. I appreciate the feedback and would like to include and compare with my consulting data on hand to ensure its accuracy.

    Lab Insight

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    #1 - For the last 7 or so years i was dispensing and running the finishing lab in office at a smallish independent. Had enough of dispensing and Ive now moved on to wholesale lab production. Anyway as i remember, we were one of maybe two dispensaries in the city that did in house edging.
    #2 - Speaking only for my former employer i can say that even if every lab we dealt with offered no charge edge and mount we would still do everything we could in house.
    #3 - Control, Quality assurance, not having to send frames to the labs. Time as well, uncuts are generally quicker delivery than edge and mounts.
    #4 - Have never worked for an OD but i can say that the percentage for both around here is very small. Many opticians i know have no lab experience what so ever, even basic finishing. Most are heavily reliant on wholesale. ( Which is good for me now! )

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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    1. Edging is only a risk if you have poor equipment, materials, or staff. Old edgers may not have the sensitivity and torque adjusting to accommodate the slick ARs, standard pads are insufficient (I use some crazy super sticky ones and they work great), and undertrained operators can obliterate a month's worth of edging savings by destroying a single pair of premium lenses. But a good edger, proper AR designed pads, and a skilled operator will reduce the risk to near zero.
    2. Free edging from my lab would increase what I let them do, but there are plenty of specialty cuts (high wrap sunglasses and shelf bevels, metal in-line grooves, custom drill mount shapes) that while my lab is capable, I prefer not to risk instructions being lost in translation and just do it myself. I still wouldn't give up my edger.
    3. Main reason for edging is better quality control on precision jobs, ability to service patients in-house without relying on lab archives and sending in POFs, and ability to enjoy the profits of stock finished lenses. Saving $10-$20 on surfaced lens edging is fine, but some finished lenses are 50% the cost for what a lab surfaces and coats it. Plus the speed of finished lenses is great, I get them next day from my lab.
    4. I have no idea, but most don't. It can be a tough sell for a doc to think of putting one in if they are only thinking numbers, because the savings is not huge. However a smart operation can leverage the capability in house edging provides and can create new profits that a wholly lab-dependent optical can't.

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    OptiBoard Professional Michael I. Davis's Avatar
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    I edge in house. Mostly for fast turn around time. Yes you get your glasses from Davis/Spectera etc. That will take a week or so. In the mean time, want another pair by tomorrow or the next day, or in a few minutes of it is a single vision I have in stock?

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Real Opticians order everything uncut. Everything. If they had the time and space they would do their own surfacing.

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    Some very interesting points so far. rbaker is correct, the days of a 'real' optician that easily performed every aspect of the process is unfortunately long gone, however there are a few I know still remaining.

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    Master OptiBoarder DanLiv's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Real Opticians order everything uncut. Everything. If they had the time and space they would do their own surfacing.
    I have surfaced and do edge, and while it is extremely informative to my understanding of the whole optical process, I wouldn't go so far as to ding opticians who do neither. I wouldn't expect an excellent mechanic to rebuild my car from the ground up (or even be able to), nor an awesome general contractor to hammer the nails into my house. What they must do is know exactly what needs to be done to get it perfectly right, and have the resources to get it done right. Whether they do it themselves or not doesn't directly impact the final product. Sure, the optician who knows surfacing and edging is more likely to be the optician who knows how to have it done right, like the best contractors and mechanics may be the guys who earlier in their careers where building houses and engines, but definitely not necessarily.

    And though I would love to be able to surface and AR coat in office, there is no way any system you can put into place in an OD/optician office environment can deliver the same quality as industrial labs with freeform generators, dip hardcoating lines, and premium AR chambers. If doing it all in-house were the litmus of the true optician and optical quality, then Lenscrafters would most of us beat. But they don't.

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Blue Jumper Also never forget that if you do the work in house ...........................

    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post

    Real Opticians order everything uncut. Everything. If they had the time and space they would do their own surfacing.

    rbaker .................just hit the nail right on the head

    A real optician is not a sales person that takes an order, sells a frame and a pair of lenses whatever they are, and passes the order to a lab, who delivers it ready made, to pass on to the customer (or in fancy language "patient") who then is charged xxx amount the cost charged to the business he is working for.

    A real optician keep's stock of single vision lenses in spherical s and toric lenses in CR39 and Polycarbonate, as well as some types of bifocals and progressives in spherical powers.

    A real optician has in house all the equipment needed to cut and grind these lenses properly for the frame sold, as well as the equipment to repair frames and the know how, how to do it.

    A real optician will never push customers to purchase lens treatments he cannot do in his own lab. If customer insist's he will tell him that he can get anything he wants, but the cost will be much different and a lot higher.

    Also never forget that if you do the work in house you do not have to pay somebody else to do it for you............................

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post

    And though I would love to be able to surface and AR coat in office, there is no way any system you can put into place in an OD/optician office environment can deliver the same quality as industrial labs with freeform generators, dip hardcoating lines, and premium AR chambers. If doing it all in-house were the litmus of the true optician and optical quality, then Lenscrafters would most of us beat. But they don't.
    there are digital generators and ar coaters that will fit in the space of two finish labs.

    however, the biggest limitation IMO is insurance, managed care, and "premium" products that are basically 80-90% marketing.

    Also, most private practices simply don't do the volume to justify digital generating and in house ar coating.

    The breaking point is around $3-4 million per year, and by that point, your local lab E lab is probably waiting on you hand and foot with huge discounts and other marketing ploys. The owner/doctor is probably happy enough with their salary and does not see the point in investing $1 million+ on equipment they will never see or use.


    Going back to original post, another benefit of edging in house, is the ability to let patients hang on to existing glasses/frames while new lenses are ordered. Once they arrive, edging can be done in 30-60minutes.
    If your edger/lms can store traces, you can have them edged before the patient even arrives.

  10. #10
    Ophthalmic Optician
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    I live in an area that is teeming with craftsmen. I wouldn't think of walking into a shop to order a custom piece of furniture, and not smelling wood chips mixed with stain, and hearing the scream of a table saw blade as it slices through a piece of wood. That's real, that's raw.

    I love working in my dispensary, while hearing the 7e in the lab carving out lenses. The patients hear it also, and if they don't I point it out to them; "Hear that? That's another pair of lenses being made in Ohio." Often, I'll add, "C'mon, I'll show you", and I'll give them a quick peak at the lab. $10-20 edging charge? No, no...it's MUCH more than a charge I'm saving. I could just as easily put the cost of a new edger in the marketing column, and be truthful about it.

    Anybody can sell glasses; I want it to be an event, and a unique experience they can't get down the street, or online. Making as much as we can in-house allows us to put our personal stamp on their eywear.
    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanLiv View Post
    I have surfaced and do edge, and while it is extremely informative to my understanding of the whole optical process, I wouldn't go so far as to ding opticians who do neither. I wouldn't expect an excellent mechanic to rebuild my car from the ground up (or even be able to), nor an awesome general contractor to hammer the nails into my house. What they must do is know exactly what needs to be done to get it perfectly right, and have the resources to get it done right. Whether they do it themselves or not doesn't directly impact the final product. Sure, the optician who knows surfacing and edging is more likely to be the optician who knows how to have it done right, like the best contractors and mechanics may be the guys who earlier in their careers where building houses and engines, but definitely not necessarily.

    And though I would love to be able to surface and AR coat in office, there is no way any system you can put into place in an OD/optician office environment can deliver the same quality as industrial labs with freeform generators, dip hardcoating lines, and premium AR chambers. If doing it all in-house were the litmus of the true optician and optical quality, then Lenscrafters would most of us beat. But they don't.

    This.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    I live in an area that is teeming with craftsmen. I wouldn't think of walking into a shop to order a custom piece of furniture, and not smelling wood chips mixed with stain, and hearing the scream of a table saw blade as it slices through a piece of wood. That's real, that's raw.

    I love working in my dispensary, while hearing the 7e in the lab carving out lenses. The patients hear it also, and if they don't I point it out to them; "Hear that? That's another pair of lenses being made in Ohio." Often, I'll add, "C'mon, I'll show you", and I'll give them a quick peak at the lab. $10-20 edging charge? No, no...it's MUCH more than a charge I'm saving. I could just as easily put the cost of a new edger in the marketing column, and be truthful about it.

    Anybody can sell glasses; I want it to be an event, and a unique experience they can't get down the street, or online. Making as much as we can in-house allows us to put our personal stamp on their eywear.
    Great post! Passion is hard to come by.

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml43 View Post
    however, the biggest limitation IMO is insurance, managed care,
    Real Opticians do not work for insurance companies and sleep with managed care providers, never.

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Real Opticians do not work for insurance companies and sleep with managed care providers, never.
    Why stop there? Why not make all your own frames?

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edKENdance View Post
    Why stop there? Why not make all your own frames?
    That is the province of frame manufacturers. Lens blanks are the province of lens manufacturers. Lab supplies and abrasives are the province of lab suppliers. Ophthalmic machinery is the province of machinery manufacturers.

    The Optician combines all of these products into a pair of spectacles.

    I did, however, make my own oatmeal this morning!

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    I used to edge at my old office for a couple years and then we gave up the edger. It didn't have an impact on anything measurable. At the new place it doesn't make sense for us to have one. We only have 3 staff and a doc. We'd have to hire another employee to run it. I don't really associate a word like "craftsmanship" with modern edging technology. All you're really doing is pushing a couple buttons, waiting, size checking, perhaps waiting for the edger to take it down by another .02 and then assembling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rbaker View Post
    Real Opticians do not work for insurance companies and sleep with managed care providers, never.
    In some states, such as california. If you can afford to not take insurance, then you can afford to not work for 5-10 years.

    Also, I know there are practices out there that have finally adopted private labeling, and started promoting their own brand rather than others.

    But the initial investment is still very large, and balancing marketing versus training versus equipment upgrades can become a nightmare in and of itself if the person making the monetary decisions doesn't care for any of it, and just wants to see a return on their investment asap.



    Quote Originally Posted by edKENdance View Post
    I used to edge at my old office for a couple years and then we gave up the edger. It didn't have an impact on anything measurable. At the new place it doesn't make sense for us to have one. We only have 3 staff and a doc. We'd have to hire another employee to run it. I don't really associate a word like "craftsmanship" with modern edging technology. All you're really doing is pushing a couple buttons, waiting, size checking, perhaps waiting for the edger to take it down by another .02 and then assembling.

    It really depends on what type of work you do in house.

    There are many types of jobs that wholesale labs will not touch, especially insurance labs.

    These are the types of jobs that help you maintain patients, and helps pay for not only the edger, but the person running it as well.

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ml43 View Post
    There are many types of jobs that wholesale labs will not touch, especially insurance labs.
    Ah ok. We don't have those in Canada.

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Redhot Jumper however we have COASTAL and they are growing ...........

    Quote Originally Posted by edKENdance View Post

    Ah ok. We don't have those in Canada.

    No we do not ...................however we have COASTAL and they are growing faster and faster.

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    No we do not ...................however we have COASTAL and they are growing faster and faster.
    Are they? Haven't heard anything about them for quite some time.

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    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Blue Jumper Don't think that E made a mistake ....................

    Quote Originally Posted by edKENdance View Post

    Are they? Haven't heard anything about them for quite some time.

    You are right, we do not hear about them anymore. However I scan through some European local small Newspapers periodically on the web and they are full of Coastal's advertising including their selling prices and super fast service.

    Don't think that E made a mistake by paying $ 43 million to own them and then forget about it. They have a consortium of top notch brains at their finger tips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edKENdance View Post
    Ah ok. We don't have those in Canada.
    Actually we do have those in Canada and has already begun quietly. VSP and FYI Doctors signed a partnership agreement last year which allowed them to cross the border and begin operating in Canada.

    Here's proof:

    https://vsp-canada.ca/

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post
    Actually we do have those in Canada and has already begun quietly. VSP and FYI Doctors signed a partnership agreement last year which allowed them to cross the border and begin operating in Canada.

    Here's proof:

    https://vsp-canada.ca/
    lol. You think that FYIdoctors is changing the way insurance works in Canada? It's comprised of a network of doctors who are incapable of operating their own practices effectively by themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edKENdance View Post
    lol. You think that FYIdoctors is changing the way insurance works in Canada? It's comprised of a network of doctors who are incapable of operating their own practices effectively by themselves.
    This thread has taken an interesting turn. However....

    It's about market share, large volume and full control of where these VSP members are allowed to go to spend their benefits. VSP members will not have freedom of choice of where to receive their services, but only via a FYI office.

    FYI needs to sustain long term volume for the company to survive and maintain the a high share value to entice new docs to make the switch over, hence why they invested in and purchased Aeroplan and signed on with VSP exclusively in addition to opening their own full service lab with coating centre. They have invested huge and are built tough to weather the economic storm long term.

    The FYI model developed by Alan Ulsifer is the best one I've ever seen to date in my 30 years in the industry. This is a lean corporation with a great vision that actually owns the practices...it is not even close to a buying group initiative like all the others.

    Buying groups simply take a percentage of your discount that was entitled for you and convert it to create an administrative company with lavish offices and expensive functions and dinners. Newsflash - most of the vendors supplying the group will give you the same discount (if not even better, especially with lens vendors) directly to you so that stays in your pocket! You just have to ask nicely and ante up a bit of volume. Isn't that worth writing a few more checks per month?

    VSP needs the platform for the ability to do business in Canada because the Canadian ECP is very resistant to change, especially by an American based giant organization. I read the comments and opinions that our American colleagues post and to me it sounds both intriguing and concerning.
    Last edited by Lab Insight; 03-05-2015 at 06:17 AM.

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    Independent Problem Optiholic edKENdance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post
    This thread has taken an interesting turn. However....

    It's about market share, large volume and full control of where these VSP members are allowed to go to spend their benefits. VSP members will not have freedom of choice of where to receive their services, but only via a FYI office.

    FYI needs to sustain long term volume for the company to survive and maintain the a high share value to entice new docs to make the switch over, hence why they invested in and purchased Aeroplan and signed on with VSP exclusively in addition to opening their own full service lab with coating centre. They have invested huge and are built tough to weather the economic storm long term.

    The FYI model developed by Alan Ulsifer is the best one I've ever seen to date in my 30 years in the industry. This is a lean corporation with a great vision that actually owns the practices...it is not even close to a buying group initiative like all the others.

    Buying groups simply take a percentage of your discount that was entitled for you and convert it to create an administrative company with lavish offices and expensive functions and dinners. Newsflash - most of the vendors supplying the group will give you the same discount (if not even better, especially with lens vendors) directly to you so that stays in your pocket! You just have to ask nicely and ante up a bit of volume. Isn't that worth writing a few more checks per month?

    VSP needs the platform for the ability to do business in Canada because the Canadian ECP is very resistant to change, especially by an American based giant organization. I read the comments and opinions that our American colleagues post and to me it sounds both intriguing and concerning.
    One of the biggest issues I personally have with FYI is that they are becoming what they are fundamentally against. From their website:

    The group was concerned about recent signs and trends – including increasing consolidation within the optical industry - they interpreted as threatening to the future of independent optometry.

    They're different from a buying group from the perspective that you don't sell your practice to a buying group or have a buying group re-model your store to fit their corporate identity. Whtether it's FYI or a Eyerecommend or a buying group they all seem to me like Hail Mary passes for practices that are ineffective businesses that lack vision and creativity. Did that sound too harsh? :)

    I don't believe the days of the neighbourhood independent are over. Far from it, actually and I work for one myself and we're really good. It doesn't matter if you have an edger or not.

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