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Thread: Why do Independants still support Essilor?

  1. #51
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    Redhot Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by djal View Post

    I've tried to get an answer from Hoya why the selection of products offered here is so limited compared to Japan... nobody could (or perhaps nobody wants) give me a clear answer! I even suggested to them to outsource some lenses and get them done in Hoya's factories in Asia/Japan... I was told shipping would be too expensive... BS obviously as Nikon, Essilor and Shamir do it on a large scale...

    Hoya has finally woken up and did join the takeover race a few month ago. They have been forced to join the race or become the looser in the field. So just keep watching and see what they are up to this year.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djal View Post
    IMO Crizal is a terrible AR coating. Look at the coating with a fluorescent lights behind... after 2 years of wear 80 to 90% of the times you see this generalized "glazing" on the lenses. We have been using Hoya EX3 for over 2 years now... nothing like this occurs with the EX3. What I find sad with Hoya USA/ Canada though is the fact they do not have half of the innovative products Hoya Japan offers... If they would ever bring all these products in North America, I'm sure Essilor would begin to get very nervous! I've tried to get an answer from Hoya why the selection of products offered here is so limited compared to Japan... nobody could (or perhaps nobody wants) give me a clear answer! I even suggested to them to outsource some lenses and get them done in Hoya's factories in Asia/Japan... I was told shipping would be too expensive... BS obviously as Nikon, Essilor and Shamir do it on a large scale...
    It has nothing to do with shipping costs; correct they're giving you BS, and here's why...

    Hoya North America wants to sell you a very limited portfolio of lenses - the ones that they can make the most profit on. They don't give a hoot about Japan's products. The American president's famous slogan to his reps is to "Sell what you got".

    As for Canada, it is even more BS and limited. They currently outsource about 70% of their jobs to Thailand and receive a box from them every day. Last time I checked a map, Thailand is much closer to Japan than North America is.

    Global sourcing of products is fine as it's the way of the future as the market continues to change. However, 7-10 day overseas delivery is horrible for them, especially when other smaller companies are to do it in 4 days with the same quality and lower cost and is about to get even better very soon....

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    Blue Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post

    Global sourcing of products is fine as it's the way of the future as the market continues to change. However, 7-10 day overseas delivery is horrible for them, especially when other smaller companies are to do it in 4 days with the same quality and lower cost and is about to get even better very soon....

    If you allow me to make a correction .........................

    These companies all have special arrangements with UPS/FEDEX/DHL for overnight or 2nd day delivery on a worldwide basis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    If you allow me to make a correction .........................

    These companies all have special arrangements with UPS/FEDEX/DHL for overnight or 2nd day delivery on a worldwide basis.
    Correct, so one must ask why it takes Hoya so long 7-10 days? It says so right on their price list 'please allow 7-10 days for delivery'.

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    I have used Hoya for several years and have found their quality excellent. They had some problems with their lab, but now seem to be corrected. It's true it takes 7-10 days to get a job, but often that can be faster. People don't seem to mind. No matter what, even though I can't fully divest from Essilor, I think it is dumb for any independent to use the Essilor lab directly. I also use Hamilton Lens and Dave is great.

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    OptiBoardaholic Quince's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post
    Correct, so one must ask why it takes Hoya so long 7-10 days? It says so right on their price list 'please allow 7-10 days for delivery'.

    I could list all the reasons we have delays on our orders but that isn't the point. Nothing we haven't heard or said before. I do know that they will say themselves that their AR takes up to two days alone because of the substrate process. Not sure how accurate this is. They do offer their Sight Overnight from Columbus which is a selection of lenses and coatings that are available to be received next day if ordered by 1pm. It does come in on time- just not always right...
    Have I told you today how much I hate poly?

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quince View Post
    I could list all the reasons we have delays on our orders but that isn't the point. Nothing we haven't heard or said before. I do know that they will say themselves that their AR takes up to two days alone because of the substrate process. Not sure how accurate this is. They do offer their Sight Overnight from Columbus which is a selection of lenses and coatings that are available to be received next day if ordered by 1pm. It does come in on time- just not always right...
    The 7-10 delivery window is an average turn around period and does not even factor in breakages or shipping mishaps.

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    Here we go:

    2 years later the Lux and Essilor are merging to make the largest ever existing optical company on a global level. Amen.
    Chris Ryser
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    Blue Jumper New York harbour, watching the then largest liner "France" come in and dock.

    Quote Originally Posted by coupe View Post

    posted 12-19-2014, 09:30 AM

    You would not believe the number of Canada accounts that Big has. Some of the most important companies in Canada do business with them. Many of the Opti Boarders who have accounts with them...read these comments....and still shovel money to them. The big question is why. Is it the old National Optical system of equipment for lab work. Is it guarenteed lab orders for preferential pricing....is it something else.

    Why would we deal with M now that they have an agreement with FYI. Face it, the little independents ar being squeezed out by the large chain store powers.
    The indy 10-15 jobs a week VS a chain store group of hundreds of orders per DAY says it all.

    2 1/4 years since above post was published here on this OptiBoard thread by "coupe".

    Some day in June 1964, = 53 years ago, I was standing on the dock at the New York harbour, watching the then largest liner "France" come in and dock.

    The highest ranking passengers occupying the presidential suite on the "FRANCE" was Mr and Mrs Cottet, the big chief of the then "ESSEL", the largest optical manufacturer in France.
    see at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essilor

    I drove them to Montreal the next day where they stayed a few days to establish new business contacts which became very eventful for next few years after that.

    Ever since that day I have had a very large interest in the development of that corporation.
    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 02-08-2017 at 06:15 AM.
    Chris Ryser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post
    It has nothing to do with shipping costs; correct they're giving you BS, and here's why...

    Hoya North America wants to sell you a very limited portfolio of lenses - the ones that they can make the most profit on. They don't give a hoot about Japan's products. The American president's famous slogan to his reps is to "Sell what you got".

    As for Canada, it is even more BS and limited. They currently outsource about 70% of their jobs to Thailand and receive a box from them every day. Last time I checked a map, Thailand is much closer to Japan than North America is.

    Global sourcing of products is fine as it's the way of the future as the market continues to change. However, 7-10 day overseas delivery is horrible for them, especially when other smaller companies are to do it in 4 days with the same quality and lower cost and is about to get even better very soon....
    The ultimate solution IMO... get rid of the CEOs at Hoya North America and replace them by Japanese people from Hoya... I agree that EX3 is a FAR BETTER coating than Crizal BUT I want MORE... I want the Venus AR coating in Asia with anti-static+ UV blocking capabilities from the back surface like Crizal... Again these CEOS here should be thought what the word Kaisen means... "If you don't get any better you are getting worst". Imagine if the Japanese car plants in North America would be ran by fat cats hillbillies from this continent; you would end up with the same **** we get when buying a Ford, Chrysler or GM car. And even experts say that a Japanese cars made in North America are not up to par with the same models made in Japan( like the good old days)!

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by djal View Post
    The ultimate solution IMO... get rid of the CEOs at Hoya North America and replace them by Japanese people from Hoya... I agree that EX3 is a FAR BETTER coating than Crizal BUT I want MORE... I want the Venus AR coating in Asia with anti-static+ UV blocking capabilities from the back surface like Crizal... Again these CEOS here should be thought what the word Kaisen means... "If you don't get any better you are getting worst". Imagine if the Japanese car plants in North America would be ran by fat cats hillbillies from this continent; you would end up with the same **** we get when buying a Ford, Chrysler or GM car. And even experts say that a Japanese cars made in North America are not up to par with the same models made in Japan( like the good old days)!
    Then you should send them each a note telling them so under the dissatisfaction warranty.

  12. #62
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    Say what you want about Essilor. They are still the only company out there that ante up in the hundreds of thousands each year to support ECP's, their associations, events and the Colleges that have cowardly turned against them and now in a legal battle. Pffft good luck with that.

    These morons and their egos running the Colleges should all be released from their duties and looking for ways to support their members rather than picking fights they will never win and will only leave them flat broke and walking funny after the lawyers are done with them.

    Then guess what will happen....you guessed it - the Colleges will be back in line asking Essilor for food stamps and if they can jump back into their lavish coffers.

    Listen to djal - he hit it bang on with his analogy of Hoya. They're more of an enemy to the ECP than ally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post
    Then you should send them each a note telling them so under the dissatisfaction warranty.
    They'll never listen. The massive number of defects and delayed shipping times aside (10 days? Try 28 on a poly safety job with no AR and transitions!), Hoya's problem is and will continue to be attitude. They're incapable of seeing their own mistakes because their upper echelons are staffed with people convinced they can do no wrong, that everything they do is right, and that any failure on their part is actually because of Essilor. Their stubborn refusal to take responsibility for their own failures, and their insistence on shifting the blame onto the OD or optician or Essilor when HOYA is the one who @$&^% up, is unconscionable. I've said it before, but, integrity goes a long way towards who I'm willing to do business with, and Hoya has demonstrated that they have none.

  14. #64
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    I do a few 3M safety jobs on occasion. According to a memo I recently got from 3M and a Hoya rep that came through last week Hoya has purchased 3M. Going to be interesting to see what the turn around time and quality is coming from them here on out. 3M always took 2 to 3 weeks and quality was good. Only thing I was getting out of 3M was a fitting fee because the companies that use them have vision service plans for their employees. We dont do anything with Vision Plans in this office thank goodness. Only reason we do some safety is just PR (public relations) hoping to get their medical insurance for cataract surgery of other medical eye issues.
    I have never understood why those in this area that take those vision service plans for the companies dont also do their Safety Glasses. Lot less headache with Safety the plans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Browman View Post
    They'll never listen. The massive number of defects and delayed shipping times aside (10 days? Try 28 on a poly safety job with no AR and transitions!), Hoya's problem is and will continue to be attitude. They're incapable of seeing their own mistakes because their upper echelons are staffed with people convinced they can do no wrong, that everything they do is right, and that any failure on their part is actually because of Essilor. Their stubborn refusal to take responsibility for their own failures, and their insistence on shifting the blame onto the OD or optician or Essilor when HOYA is the one who @$&^% up, is unconscionable. I've said it before, but, integrity goes a long way towards who I'm willing to do business with, and Hoya has demonstrated that they have none.
    Very true - urgency or responsibility is not in their vocabulary. Arrogance certainly only hinders any business relationship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCGREEN View Post
    I do a few 3M safety jobs on occasion. According to a memo I recently got from 3M and a Hoya rep that came through last week Hoya has purchased 3M. Going to be interesting to see what the turn around time and quality is coming from them here on out. 3M always took 2 to 3 weeks and quality was good. Only thing I was getting out of 3M was a fitting fee because the companies that use them have vision service plans for their employees. We dont do anything with Vision Plans in this office thank goodness. Only reason we do some safety is just PR (public relations) hoping to get their medical insurance for cataract surgery of other medical eye issues.
    I have never understood why those in this area that take those vision service plans for the companies dont also do their Safety Glasses. Lot less headache with Safety the plans.
    3M was purchased simply for the volume and a way to gain instant access into new offices that are safety dispensers. Producing safety lenses is more of a community service more than anything else, and I'm sure the selling price was dirt cheap.

    The business strategy to me seems rather flawed and desperate...why would a premium lens manufacturer want to own and produce the cheapest lenses on the market? It goes completely against the grain. My guess is they will just flip the entire safety division over to Thailand for production in due time. That makes more business sense to me.

    A better strategy would be to purchase large OD practices and vertically integrate.

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    Blue Jumper the Colleges will be back in line asking Essilor for food stamps ....................

    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post

    Say what you want about Essilor. They are still the only company out there that ante up in the hundreds of thousands each year to support ECP's, their associations, events and the Colleges that have cowardly turned against them and now in a legal battle. Pffft good luck with that.


    .......................Then guess what will happen....you guessed it - the Colleges will be back in line asking Essilor for food stamps and if they can jump back into their lavish coffers.

    BC is no more regulated, and so is Quebec, and the turn is now on Ontario to do the same. So in another 5 to 8 years all of Canada will have become a free for all, optical retail country, with the USA taking some parallel action.
    Chris Ryser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    BC is no more regulated, and so is Quebec, and the turn is now on Ontario to do the same. So in another 5 to 8 years all of Canada will have become a free for all, optical retail country, with the USA taking some parallel action.
    Playing devil's advocate for a moment...it seems to me that BC and Quebec continue to operate smoothly without regulation and pay rates have not been cut in half.

    I'm not saying I'm in favor of deregulation, but it is a valid observation to point out.

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    Blue Jumper not saying I'm in favor of deregulation, but it is a valid observation...............

    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post

    Playing devil's advocate for a moment...it seems to me that BC and Quebec continue to operate smoothly without regulation and pay rates have not been cut in half.

    ................however your friendly garbage collector or street cleaner can become an optician in your friendly neighborhood opticians store from one day to the next without any effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight;

    I'm not saying I'm in favor of deregulation, but it is a valid observation to point out.

    ...................deregulation of the optical retail market will remove all professional responsibility of the retail seller towards the purchaser.

    It then will be be moved voluntarily to the manufacturers and their subsidiaries, the optical labs who supply the Rx's and then will control also the quality of the retail market.

    This will leave the major manufacturers an open road to dominate the online optical retail sales they want to increase with their major presence.

    Opticians over the last few years have been discouraged to do any extra lens treatments in their own premises and purchase their lenses all finished by the labs, either uncut or all done at much higher prices.

    This domino effect on the optical retail trade will be the eventual death of the profession with the exception of the few real professionals who acquired the needed knowledge to survive and continue to flourish.
    Chris Ryser
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    ................however your friendly garbage collector or street cleaner can become an optician in your friendly neighborhood opticians store from one day to the next without any effort.




    ...................deregulation of the optical retail market will remove all professional responsibility of the retail seller towards the purchaser.

    It then will be be moved voluntarily to the manufacturers and their subsidiaries, the optical labs who supply the Rx's and then will control also the quality of the retail market.

    This will leave the major manufacturers an open road to dominate the online optical retail sales they want to increase with their major presence.

    Opticians over the last few years have been discouraged to do any extra lens treatments in their own premises and purchase their lenses all finished by the labs, either uncut or all done at much higher prices.

    This domino effect on the optical retail trade will be the eventual death of the profession with the exception of the few real professionals who acquired the needed knowledge to survive and continue to flourish.
    Chris, unfortunately the open road is already there. The Colleges and Associations are to blame for standing silent on the side lines for too long.

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    Blue Jumper

    Quote Originally Posted by Lab Insight View Post

    Chris, unfortunately the open road is already there. The Colleges and Associations are to blame for standing silent on the side lines for too long.

    Lab Insight, you have a good point there ..................

    One of our newest Quebec located online opticals has even been partially financed by the Quebec Angels, an investment group.

    Anges Québec Encourages the Vision of Bonlook and its Online Optical Shop with an Investment of Over $1M

    June 5, 2013

    (Montreal, June 5th, 2013) – Bonlook’s vision team and dynamic team convinced Anges Québec investors and the Anges Québec Capital Fund to invest $1.1 million in this Quebec-based online optical shop which offers a distinct product. The Fund contributed $150K, while the rest of the amount comes from 25 private member investors of Anges Québec, including Caroline Pelletier, who led this investment project.

    See all of it: ==========>
    https://angesquebec.com/en/anges-que...ent-of-over-1m


    If they did not sell into Quebec, because it was regulated territory and now not anymore, they established themselves in the USA for the first few 3 years as their prime territory, but that has probably now changed.

    So we got one more of which the Alexa ranking is strongly on the way up the ladder.



    Last edited by Chris Ryser; 02-14-2017 at 03:21 AM.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Lab Insight, you have a good point there ..................

    One of our newest Quebec located online opticals has even been partially financed by the Quebec Angels, an investment group.

    Anges Québec Encourages the Vision of Bonlook and its Online Optical Shop with an Investment of Over $1M

    June 5, 2013

    (Montreal, June 5th, 2013) – Bonlook’s vision team and dynamic team convinced Anges Québec investors and the Anges Québec Capital Fund to invest $1.1 million in this Quebec-based online optical shop which offers a distinct product. The Fund contributed $150K, while the rest of the amount comes from 25 private member investors of Anges Québec, including Caroline Pelletier, who led this investment project.

    See all of it: ==========>
    https://angesquebec.com/en/anges-que...ent-of-over-1m


    If they did not sell into Quebec, because it was regulated territory and now not anymore, they established themselves
    in the USA for the first few 3 years as their prime territory, but that has probably now changed.

    So we got one more of which the Alexa ranking is strongly on the way up the ladder.



    Great post Chris. Similarly, Roger Hardy started Coastal Contacts more than 10 years ago with a group of venture capital investors and according to what we learned, was never 'legal'. So we are told. One thing that was real was the market share.

    They never made a single dollar in profit during that period, but they knew one day that market share would translate into profit.

    And it sure did...they were acquired for more than $400M for that very cause. Beauty is always in the eye of the beholder; investments are no different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    BC is no more regulated
    Not totally accurate... our BC regulatory College remains in place and the registration of Dispensing Opticians in BC is now voluntary. However, the practice of Contact Lens Fitting remains fully regulated in BC, as is 'sight-testing' by registered and certified Opticians.

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    Redhot Jumper So tighten your seatbelts before it happens.............................

    Quote Originally Posted by tmorse View Post

    Not totally accurate... our BC regulatory College remains in place and the registration of Dispensing Opticians in BC is now voluntary.

    However, the practice of Contact Lens Fitting remains fully regulated in BC, as is 'sight-testing' by registered and certified Opticians.

    If I would open a large nice store in downtown Vancouver I would never become a volunteer and register with the College of Opticians if not needed.

    .........and if we wanted to do "sight testing" I would hire an optician that is registered with the College of Opticians as needed, no problem.

    In such a business, what brings in the money, are the sales of eyeglasses at the conventional pricing system of free service, and warranties included forever, and paid out front.

    However the "conventional pricing system" is very probably on its last leg and will have to be changed in the very foreseeable future to "basic pricing, plus charges for services rendered".

    This is all due to the present "non internet savvy", old age generation dying off over the next few years.

    We have all been informed by the Essilor-Luxottica merger reports that the newly formed super giant corporation will concentrate mainly on internet sales .

    Furthermore knowing, that the North American Continent is their usual testing ground, it all will happen here first. So tighten your seatbelts before it happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    deregulation of the optical retail market will remove all professional responsibility of the retail seller towards the purchaser.
    Retail eyeglass seller in BC will still be bound by our BC 'SALE OF GOODS ACT', which require that the eyeglasses 'be fit for purpose' and retail purchaser access to Small Claims Court remains in effect for improperly dispensed eyewear.

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