Spare the rod?

[Night Train]

This poll is in response to the "Kids Today" Thread. Should parents spank? Yes or no.....and why?

[John R]

Over here the 10 and under are out of touch as far as the law goes....
DO you think that the parents should be held responsible instead because i sure as hell do....

[optispares]

DO you think that the parents should be held responsible instead because i sure as hell do.

and perhaps if a few more spankings were administered by
these "parents" they would be a little better behaved.
TOO MANY DOGOODERS SAYING TREAT THEM AS ADULTS.
talk to THE CHILDREN .HUMBUG
nothing wrong with a good spanking when it is deserved.

[Joann Raytar]

I don't have children but I think there are certain situations where a spanking is appropriate. "Time Out" is only affective if a childs' personality will equate it to a consequence. If the child doesn't mind sitting still for X amount of time, what good will it do if the child has done something very bad or hurtful.

[stephanie]

I don't think a good spanking really hurt any child. Not a beating but a spanking. YES they need to do it more. I don't think kids understand consequences for their actions anymore. They have no respect for parents or elders. I can only remember getting a couple of spankings myself but I do remember I deserved them. To this day I remember what I did to get spanked that is for sure. I don't think I am scarred for life because of it. Actually for me I think it made me want to behave to ensure it never happened to me again. I think people go way over board. The time out thing for the most part on every child I have ever seen it used on has caused more problems for the adult doing the punishment then the kid.



Steph

[John R]

stephanie said:
I They have no respect for parents or elders.

You hit the nail on the head there Steph...Kids don't give a toss about anyone in authority, be it teachers, police etc...
Time something was done to get back to the morals of when we were kids....

[Joann Raytar]

John R said:
Time something was done to get back to the morals of when we were kids....

John,
You bring morals into the mix. Is there a difference between teaching morals and training a child to be moral? I suppose we are talking about spanking children at an early age. You can talk to children about morals all you want but there has to be a time when the child's immediate attention is necessary to get a cause/effect/consequence point across. A swat on the behind may be a parent's exclamation point. At this point I think it is more a matter of training; the parent trains the child to correct their behavior at the time a bad action is done. Of course, if you swat a child and say "no" too many times then the point is lost anyway.

I think many parents want to be their children's friends. It is more important for parents to be parents first; friendship will come when the children are adults.

[Diane]

Love demands discipline and sometimes punishment. I believe in spanking, and also believe that we should learn HOW to administer it in love to our children. Parents need to decide early on that they will stand together in whatever punishment or discipline they administer. Remembering that there is a difference in punishment and discipline. Spanking is not a beating. Spankings are rarely (let me emphasise rarely) effective on teenagers. Parents should know their children. What works on one, won't nececessarily work on the other. I have two, and they required totally different discipline when they were young, in order to be effective.

Parents who threaten and never follow through with their "threats" aren't doing their children or society any favor. Children learn that the "rules" change according to the mood of the person in charge. Children need to know that everything has a price, whether it's going to the store and making a purchase, or committing an act that will reap consequences. We need to let them know what the costs of ANY thing is. Parents who yell and tell their children that if you do so and so, "I'm going to kill you", aren't effective in their discipline. Children soon realize that the parent is melodramatic and start demonstrating the same type of behavior.

Telling their children that THEY are BAD is just as bad. Tell them what they have done is bad, and you expect better of them. Children develop self worth very early. They also don't want to disappoint their parents. They crave approval. I saw it in my own children and now my grandchildren. I also see it in the children that I teach music. They don't like to disappoint. They also learn, quickly, who they can manipulate and who they can't. I've found that each year, the children in my choir, who supposedly are classified as challenging, learn that they are expected to behave in my class, and know that inappropriate behavior will not be tolerated. They also love me as much as I love them. I also let them know that I'm proud of them.

I could go on and on, because a nerve has been struck. Children are the best thing that we have been blessed with by God, and we should take these little charges and handle them with love and care, whether they are our own flesh and blood or belong to someone else.

Diane

[chip anderson]

While I can only remember spanking my son one time, after that I only had to tell him that he was going to get one if he didn't stop/start doing whatever was needed.

Everytime my son sees my undiciplined grandchildren (children of his older sibblings, although all my children are grown) my son never fails to remake: "Thank God you an mom beat the c**** out of me when I was bad."

Don't remember either one of us having to "Beat the c*** out of him, but this is what he says.

Chip

[John R]

Jo said:
John,
You bring morals into the mix.

Sorry bad choice of word there...

I remember as a kid, that if i went home and said i had got the cane of some other form of punishment at school i would get either the same or worse at home.....
Now if little Tommy Jones come home from school and says teacher shouted at me (physical punishment not allowed)...parents are running to the school to flatten the teacher for upsetting their little Tj...
Teachers can no longer discipline kids at school so what hope is there....
In my daughters class (she's 9) they have several problem kids at present doing stuff like throwing chairs around and not doing what the teachers asks....The teachers are unable to deal with the situation and there is no form of punishment available to them....All they can do is offer anger management to the kids...This has resulted in one teacher being put on permanent sick due to stress.... and a hell of a lot of angry parents who what the situation sorted.....

[PAkev]

Although I received my share of spankings as a child, I was moved more by my parents disappointment in me and my actions. It didn't take long for them to realize I was more moved by guilt than pain. Some of the stupidest things I done as a kid were punished by taking a privelage away instead of a spanking. I vividly remember most of my highschool sophmore year weekends were spent at home doing chores as a punishment for my misbehavings. As I got older, my freedom and privelages became more valuable to me which inspired greater responsibility and respect for my parents rules.

Now as a parent of a 4 & 2 yr old, I realize how difficult it is to paddle and/or punish my children. However, I would much rather deal with the tears and establish who's the boss now than in 10 more years when they have the influence of the other undisciplined kids.

Kevin

[chip anderson]

This may be a bad comparision but I remember a comic strip of Little Orphan Annie.

Annie was ventureing into a section of cajun swamps by pirough (a flat canoe like cajun boat for those of you unfortuante enough to live up North) and this section of swamp was known to be inhabited by some rather bad criminal types. Annie was fortunate enough to have friend who was known to be champion of justice but very violent in his own way. He couldn't accompany Annie on her journey so he put a little U.S. flag on the front of her pirouge. This was known to be his mark in the area.

Surely enough on her journey, Annie ws beset by thieves, murderers and robbers. The jumped on her boat, began to remove her valuables and were about to remove Annie. Then one of them noticed the little flag. They hastily put everything inculuding Annie back and set her on her way without harm.

Annie remarked: "Isn't it amazing how much respect people have for a flag when they know it's backed up by something swift and terrible."

So should it be with parenting, then you never have to be "swift and terrible."

Chip:D

[John R]

chip anderson said:
So should it be with parenting, then you never have to be "swift and terrible."

Chip:D

Great piece Chip and just how things should be. Most of us seem to agree that discipline is important, trouble is there are those who just plain dont give a toss... what their kids do....

We used to send our daughter to her room when she had mis-behaved trouble is its not a punishment as that where all her goodies are, so now i find that just telling her to sit and do nothing is pretty effective of course this is always inforced...
You will DO as i say......

[Texas Ranger]

I suppose that I had the advantage of being blessed with children after 30, then had three, 20 months apart, so when the youngest was born, the oldest was 40 months. I can say that they grew up in a home where we attended church, were involved with Girl and Boy Scouts, including high adventure trips to Cananian boundry waters and Philmont scout ranch in NM. when they were small, it was a learning process that like Diane said, they're each different. one might require a spanking, another would respond to depriving him of his nintendo, another thrived on freedom, and trusted responsibility. a fond memory is when one was on restriction, went to a friends house after his work at a pizza place, we had to track him down, but only had a ph#. I called, asked him where I could pick him up at?, he wouldn't tell, so all I said was "then, count the cost", and hung up. he walked home about 6 miles, and apologized for his behavior. haven't spanked them since they were 3 or 4, it upset ME too much. the thing about scouting programs is the guys got a lot of interaction with other adults, and they were good role models. and us adults learned a lot from each other, and saw what worked and what didn't. but you must participate to experience your kids the best; and they will surprise you, in a most positive way.

[chm2023]

I don't have a problem with spanking per se, but it is a difficult issue: if a child continues to behave poorly, does the frequency or the intensity of the spanking continue? Obviously not a good idea, so there is a built in dowside. The other thing is that part of me says violence begets violence; also, is spanking the best response or is it the one that best relieves the parent's frustration? I personally feel other punishments are more effective, but no I cannot say I have a problem with it if this is what other parents are more comfortable with. I recall being spanked as a kid and frankly think I preferred this to withholding priveleges.

I have spent time working with foster children and invariably the least qualified parents were the ones who spanked the most, not having the skills to develop other disciplinary strategies. I suspect this is where the current cultural distaste for spanking originates.

[John Tickner]

If I hit an adult, that is assault.

Hitting a child is arguably a greater crime.

[chip anderson]

Not too long ago we had a radio talk show hosted by a family counselor. The subject of child dicipline came up and a number of people in the same profession called in. They all agreed on two things.

1: Too many parnents forget that they are the parent, they want to be the child's friend and fear offending him and loseing his love.

2: Never ask a child twice. While these people stoped short of saying: "Swat the kid when he fails to obey with the first command." The implication was there but they didn't want to appear politically incorrect or sued for thier advise on the radio, it was clear what each of these people advised.

Failing to raise a child with a cocept of discipline is a far greater sin than enforcing (without permanant damage) discipline.

Chip:finger:

[Jubilee]

I have only spanked my soon to be 6 year old on a few occasions. And those times really didn't seem to affect him or his behaviour for the better...more often it made it worse. Like him hitting others, or he laughed ..it really doesn't seem to phase him.

What works best for me is to take privilidges away. He loves games...between Nintendo, the computer, card games, board games...he wants to spend the majority of the time on those activities. So when he is doing somethign he shouldn't, he gets a warning letting him know that there will be no games tonight if the behavior continues, and if it does, then it is taken away. I will unplug the nintendo from the tv in his room, the tv doesnt' have any cable hookups so it gets no channels in, and this really seems to work better for me than a swat on the behind.

I know it wouldn't work for everyone, and I do believe that spanking works for some...but just not me.

Cassandra

[Pete Hanlin]

Interesting opinions all...

Me and my two brothers received the occasional spanking as kids (always very much deserved), and I believe it was fairly effective.

Now that I have an 8 year old son (I had to think about that just now... 8 years old- where does the time go) and a 6 year old daughter, I find that spanking is effective in varying degrees.

The son seems to learn quite well from the occasional spanking (especially for misbehaviour at school). The daughter- well, she's so freaking stubborn I still haven't figured out what gets through to her! Time out, spanking, elimination of priviledges... she toughs them all out and comes away even more determined to do whatever it is daddy doesn't want her to do. Arrrrrrgh, women!
;)

BTW, hitting an adult is a crime because of the scenario in which that action usually takes place (uncontrolled rage). Spanking a child should never be done while upset, and is a totally different excersize- the two are apples and oranges.

[John R]

Pete Hanlin said:
The daughter- well, she's so freaking stubborn I still haven't figured out what gets through to her! Time out, spanking, elimination of priviledges... she toughs them all out and comes away even more determined to do whatever it is daddy doesn't want her to do. Arrrrrrgh, women!

Yep they are a tough breed Pete, and i can tell you it wont get any easier...:hammer:
Defiant to the last...Just dont ever let her get the last word or you're doomed.....:shiner:

[Diane]

[QUOTE]Pete Hanlin said:
.

The son seems to learn quite well from the occasional spanking (especially for misbehaviour at school). The daughter- well, she's so freaking stubborn I still haven't figured out what gets through to her! Time out, spanking, elimination of priviledges... she toughs them all out and comes away even more determined to do whatever it is daddy doesn't want her to do. Arrrrrrgh, women!
;)


Pete,

My children were SO different. One was a daughter and the other a son. I found that spankings were the most effective with my son, and found not having to administer them often. My daughter on the other hand didn't get too many spankings for the reasons that she was sooooo material from an early age, that I simply took things away from her. That didn't have to happen too often as a result, either.

My husband had real problems in disciplining our daughter....the reasons is (here is a secret! ...shhhhh) .. Mothers teach their daughters secrets... ;) How to wrap Daddy around their little finger really early.

Diane

[John R]

Diane said:
My husband had real problems in disciplining our daughter....the reasons is (here is a secret! ...shhhhh) .. Mothers teach their daughters secrets... ;) How to wrap Daddy around their little finger really early.

Diane

Other way round here...Its the Mrs that has the problem with DADDIES little girl......
No way will she ever get me round her little finger......

[Pete Hanlin]

Mothers teach their daughters secrets... How to wrap Daddy around their little finger really early.
Hmmm, so my WIFE is to blame for the fact that I can't figure the little she-devil out (I had always assumed it was the estrogen)!

Let's see, Sara has already developed the following repertoire:

• puffed out bottom lip
• furrowed brow (in severe cases of angst combined with any of the next three following)
• crossed arms
• foot stomp
• an animal-like sound something like "huh-ergh-humph" (emphasis on last syllable)
• high-pitched scream
• tears
• running and burying the face in a pillow

Pretty impressive for a little woman of six! She even has the "if you don't know what's wrong I'm not going to tell you" routine down to a science! She positively tortures her 30-year-old Uncle Kenny when he tries to take her somewhere... For example, he took her to a McDonalds and ordered her an adult-sized McNugget meal. She wouldn't touch it or talk to him, but simply frowned at him and puffed the lip with the crossed arms (oh, he peeved her off royal). You guessed it, she wanted the toy that comes with a Happy Meal (well duh!). Unfortunately, Uncle Ken was completely baffled and spent all afternoon trying to figure out how to win her affections back.

All I can say is I already empathize with the poor fella who ends up dating this little vixen! Most dads give the severe once over to potential suiters... I will give simply say "Dead man walking!" as they approach the front door and wish them the best of luck!

I mean, really! I love my little girl to death, but she's so darn stubborn and set on getting exactly what she has decided to want today (it changes on a daily basis), arrrrrgh! I think my lack of sisters growing up is coming back to haunt me. Life is pretty easy when you have just brothers- one of 'em messes with you, you just whack 'em! This whole son-daughter chemistry thing is just too confusing.
;)
PS- Its not that she throws fits (even daddy will have none of that). She just knows exactly how far she can push defiance without going over the edge and proceeds to do so constantly!

[John R]

Pete Hanlin said:
All I can say is I already empathize with the poor fella who ends up dating this little vixen! Most dads give the severe once over to potential suiters... I will give simply say "Dead man walking!" as they approach the front door and wish them the best of luck!

Already told mine if want to get married no problem.....Off you go.....
Soon as you are 16 doors there out you go.....Stand on your own feet....By the time she reaches 16 i will either be grey (nearly there now) or bald....

Yep its so funny how they know just where the limit is.......Must remember to move it back a bit.....

[Texas Ranger]

there are a couple things that help, first "get your bluff in early; and pick your battles. not everything is worth a parent needing to be "right". does anybody watch "bernie mac" show, it's parenting at it's most humorous. one thing for sure is that kids instinctively play parents against each other, so don't give permissions or definite "no's" without discussing it with your mate. as a matter of fact, don't do anything involving your mate that they aren't enthusiastically in favor of, if they're not, negotiate, but find out why they have their opinion,they just might be right...