Freeform Pricing??

[buckeyefan]

We just started an account with Hoya about a month and a half ago. So far all the patients love the product and we have not had any complaints. Before we used mostly Essilor and did not prescribe many freeform lenses. Now with Hoya we are using a lot more free form. We are currently updating our prices for everything (long over due). As for the PAL's we are thinking about offering a good, better, best type of thing. Starting with the Summit IQ (good), Array (better), ID Lifestyle 2 (best), then the ID Mystyle (ultimate). All are freeform lenses, but does anyone have an idea of about what percentage the price should go up for each lens? Thank you for your input!

[Golfnorth]

We just started an account with Hoya about a month and a half ago. So far all the patients love the product and we have not had any complaints. Before we used mostly Essilor and did not prescribe many freeform lenses. Now with Hoya we are using a lot more free form. We are currently updating our prices for everything (long over due). As for the PAL's we are thinking about offering a good, better, best type of thing. Starting with the Summit IQ (good), Array (better), ID Lifestyle 2 (best), then the ID Mystyle (ultimate). All are freeform lenses, but does anyone have an idea of about what percentage the price should go up for each lens? Thank you for your input!

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How about use a mark-up formula (the same you use for all progressives) then apply it to the wholesale cost of each lens that you mentioned above?

Regards,
Golfnorth

[Fred Dagg]

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How about use a mark-up formula (the same you use for all progressives) then apply it to the wholesale cost of each lens that you mentioned above?

Regards,
Golfnorth

The trouble with that, IMO, is that it does not necessarily give sensible upgrade costs from one level of technology to another, and means opportunities for better margins on some products can be missed. I run a spreadsheet with a standard mark up formula to give me an idea of where a price should land, but I'll also tweak that a bit so it works with other products. If you're getting better pricing on Hoya product, there's no reason to charge less for an iD Lifestyle than a Physio, for instance.

I also think one thing independents can learn from the optical chains is clear and easy upgrade pricing from one level of tech to another. I guess it's debatable what that cost should be, and it will be different from practice to practice. But if it's nice and simple, ie it's $100 to go from a Summit Trueform to an iD, it's a pretty easy sell, especially if that upgrade cost is consistent across materials (refractive index and Trans). It just makes things simpler. You won't get that from a straight formula mark up. Just my 2c, which won't suit everyone.

[EyeCare Rich]

Totally agree with Golfnorth here. Keeps your margins easy to follow. Formula works for all retail products.

[ThatOneGuy]

I would also caution against the MyStyle as being positioned "above" anything else. The MyStyle is a tricky creature to master because of the subjective questions skewing the results. For instance, if you do lots of up close and midrange work throughout the day and for all of your hobbies, you'll end up with a great lens for that, except that it might not take in to account your 2 hours of commuting every day. MyStyle is more of a marketing gimmick than an above premium lens product.

To say another way, the optics and performance will be fine, but you'll shoot yourself in the foot if a patient is used to wide distance vision (for instance) and ends up with a super narrow field of view, even though it is "better." I'm trying to caution you on HOW you sell the lens, not caution you against selling the lens.

[Golfnorth]

I would also caution against the MyStyle as being positioned "above" anything else. The MyStyle is a tricky creature to master because of the subjective questions skewing the results. For instance, if you do lots of up close and midrange work throughout the day and for all of your hobbies, you'll end up with a great lens for that, except that it might not take in to account your 2 hours of commuting every day. MyStyle is more of a marketing gimmick than an above premium lens product.

To say another way, the optics and performance will be fine, but you'll shoot yourself in the foot if a patient is used to wide distance vision (for instance) and ends up with a super narrow field of view, even though it is "better." I'm trying to caution you on HOW you sell the lens, not caution you against selling the lens.

We sell the Mystyle as our Best lens and haven't run into the issue that you describe above thank God.

Regards,
Golfnorth

[merrymaker]

We sell the Mystyle as our Best lens and haven't run into the issue that you describe above thank God.

Regards,
Golfnorth

We are a big time Hoya account (less-so these days due to lab issues) but I haven't found the Mystyle to be all that its sold to be. The ID2 seems to work just as well.

Although ThatOneGuy brings up some interesting points. Maybe I havent put the right eyeballs in that design.

[buckeyefan]

I haven't sold any Mystyles yet. Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions. We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers. Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in? Thanks!

[Golfnorth]

I haven't sold any Mystyles yet. Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions. We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers. Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in? Thanks!

Your rep sounds like a dolt. There is an IDMystyle Rx order pad that has 16 different icons which the customer is asked to pick 5 or 6 that resonate with them the most. Then they are asked to rank the 5 or 6 on a scale of 1 to 5 with #1 being not very important to #5 being very important. You also receive a kit with instruments that measure the vertex, frame wrap and pantoscopic tilt. You are also asked what the client's previous prescription is and what progressive lens design (if any) they are currently wearing. From all that the Mystyle lenses are designed for the client. Oh and I almost forgot......you measure not only the monocular distance pd but also the near. The inset is customized to the client as not everybody has a 2mm inset for reading.

Regards,
Golfnorth

[buckeyefan]

Yea, She never mentioned any of that. In your opinion, are the Mystyles that much better than the LifeStyle 2? She gave us a few free vouchers for lenses and I put our office manager in A lifestyle 2 clarity and she absolutely loves them. I just wear single vision so I have to rely on others to tell me!

[m0002a]

Your rep sounds like a dolt. There is an IDMystyle Rx order pad that has 16 different icons which the customer is asked to pick 5 or 6 that resonate with them the most...

The customer can also answer the questions using the Hoya online web order system. This has the advantage of, when the order is complete, the Hoya order system tells you what kind of lens you are getting (short corridor, long corridor, etc) based on answers to the questions. As soon as I saw what the software interpreted from my answers (a hard design, exactly opposite from what I wanted), I cancelled the MyStyle order and ordered LifeStyle Harmony instead.

[Jstanfast]

I haven't sold any Mystyles yet. Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions. We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers. Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in? Thanks!

https://www.mystylelensesusa.com/Login.aspx

Go there
account #
and 10 digit phone number.

you'll have all the info that you want. just send a dummy patient through.

[obiwan]

In Australia at least, Harmony and Clarity both have long and short versions. I have all 4 combinations.
And in Australia, MyStyle V+ has just replaced MyStyle, have a few on order so shall see how they fare.

With MyStyle V+, just like Varilux S series, a right lens can't be supplied with knowing the left Rx and vice versa because of the binocular trickery both designs use to help with anisometropia. The LifeStyle V+'s don't do this so I don't think a MyStyle V+ can end up exactly like a "plain" Lifestyle V+ Harmony/Clarity.

[m0002a]

In Australia at least, Harmony and Clarity both have long and short versions. I have all 4 combinations.
And in Australia, MyStyle V+ has just replaced MyStyle, have a few on order so shall see how they fare.

With MyStyle V+, just like Varilux S series, a right lens can't be supplied with knowing the left Rx and vice versa because of the binocular trickery both designs use to help with anisometropia. The LifeStyle V+'s don't do this so I don't think a MyStyle V+ can end up exactly like a "plain" Lifestyle V+ Harmony/Clarity.

My understanding is that the LifeStyle is based on MyStyle "averages" so that if someone had an average Rx with regard to that condition, then it could be the same. But if some had an unusual condition, it would be different. Even for the MyStyle, if you don't take the extra measurements such as panto, vertex, etc, it will just use defaults (averages).

[obiwan]

Thank you for detailed post Rob. Do you guys still have the iD Classic/Instyle over there which here is positioned between Lifestyle V+ (which I guess you call Lifestyle2) and Mystyle? Or is that what you call "the non signature level mystyle"

[Rob Brown]

Thank you for detailed post Rob. Do you guys still have the iD Classic/Instyle over there which here is positioned between Lifestyle V+ (which I guess you call Lifestyle2) and Mystyle? Or is that what you call "the non signature level mystyle"

The 'iD' classic brand as it used to be called here in Canada was discontinued when the MyStyle was launched. However, a very similar version of it is still available to a select group of OD's in Canada under a supply agreement known as 'Protegrity'.

The reference to standard non-Signature, Signature, and Signature Plus are all still 100% MyStyle; they are simply various levels of customization/personalization options.

Cheers,
Rob

[merrymaker]

Thanks for the back-and-forth conversation re: the Hoya designs. As previously mentioned, my office is/was a big Hoya account and my own (former) rep had once said the differences between Harmony/Clarity were ever so small that it's nice to have a bit more technical info on the design differences. Interestingly enough, my OD has seen more "problem-focus" visits with the new ID2 designs than he remembers seeing with the original ID style. He admits that maybe that design is sticking to memory more than others.

[obiwan]

I think the corridor lengths for both types are the same. In Australia for both Clarity and Harmony we specify if we want the 11 or the 14 mm corridor.

[m0002a]

I think the corridor lengths for both types are the same. In Australia for both Clarity and Harmony we specify if we want the 11 or the 14 mm corridor.

I am not doubting you on that, but since the Clarity is hard design (fast transition between far and near with little intermediate), and the Harmony is a soft design (long transition between far and near, with a larger intermediate), that sounds counterintuitive to me that they actually could have the same exact corridor length. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I think Hoya treats opticians like idiots (especially the way the MyStyle is ordered, but also with LifeStyle), and probably doesn't want to confuse them with details.

[Rob Brown]

I am not doubting you on that, but since the Clarity is hard design (fast transition between far and near with little intermediate), and the Harmony is a soft design (long transition between far and near, with a larger intermediate), that sounds counterintuitive to me that they actually could have the same exact corridor length. But I could be wrong.

Personally, I think Hoya treats opticians like idiots (especially the way the MyStyle is ordered, but also with LifeStyle), and probably doesn't want to confuse them with details.

I don't agree with your last comment and is unfounded - in fact since I carry most major brands from all manufacturers at my lab from all manufacturers I have had training on all of them; Hoya has always provided the best detailed approach on understanding the product, technical data and how to promote and sell it properly.

MyStyle is more complex and high end vs. other brands for sure and requires a detailed tutorial, no different than if you purchased a Bentley over a Pacer, you would require training on how to understand its systems to provide maximum value.

[m0002a]

I don't agree with your last comment and is unfounded - in fact since I carry most major brands from all manufacturers at my lab from all manufacturers I have had training on all of them; Hoya has always provided the best detailed approach on understanding the product, technical data and how to promote and sell it properly.

MyStyle is more complex and high end vs. other brands for sure and requires a detailed tutorial, no different than if you purchased a Bentley over a Pacer, you would require training on how to understand its systems to provide maximum value.

As I have explained in detail in other posts (and at least two other members have also agreed with me), the MyStyle questionnaire that the patient fills out to determine what kind of lens design they will get (hard vs soft, etc) may produce the exact opposite results of what is desired. I have documented in other posts what happened to me when I knew that I wanted a soft design with large intermediate, and I selected “computer use” as the highest ranked activity. But the MyStyle order summary said it selected a hard design with small intermediate (but good distance vision) for me, which caused me to cancel the order and get the LifeStyle instead (where at least I had some direct control over what I was getting (Harmony vs Clarity).

My comments about treating opticians like idiots is that the Hoya MyStyle ordering system does not allow the optician to question the patient and make the decision as to which lens design to get (hard vs soft), since Hoya bypasses the optician and go straight to the patient questionnaire, which unfortunately is based on flawed software. In addition to trying to eliminate the optician from choosing the design (hard vs soft, etc), they have an iPad application that, using the built in iPad camera, takes all the measurements (PD, panto, vertex, etc) automatically, again eliminating the skill of an optician. I personally don't have a problem if they could actually eliminate the skill of the optician, if it was done correctly, but in my experience (and the experience of some others on this forum) the software is seriously flawed (at least the questionnaire part).

As I have said before, I think the Hoya LifeStyle and MyStyle and very good lenses (I am very pleased with my LifeStyle Harmony), I just have a big problem with the ordering system.

[Rob Brown]

As I have explained in detail in other posts (and at least two other members have also agreed with me), the MyStyle questionnaire that the patient fills out to determine what kind of lens design they will get (hard vs soft, etc) may produce the exact opposite results of what is desired. I have documented in other posts what happened to me when I knew that I wanted a soft design with large intermediate, and I selected “computer use” as the highest ranked activity. But the MyStyle order summary said it selected a hard design with small intermediate (but good distance vision) for me, which caused me to cancel the order and get the LifeStyle instead (where at least I had some direct control over what I was getting (Harmony vs Clarity).

My comments about treating opticians like idiots is that the Hoya MyStyle ordering system does not allow the optician to question the patient and make the decision as to which lens design to get (hard vs soft), since Hoya bypasses the optician and go straight to the patient questionnaire, which unfortunately is based on flawed software. In addition to trying to eliminate the optician from choosing the design (hard vs soft, etc), they have an iPad application that, using the built in iPad camera, takes all the measurements (PD, panto, vertex, etc) automatically, again eliminating the skill of an optician. I personally don't have a problem if they could actually eliminate the skill of the optician, if it was done correctly, but in my experience (and the experience of some others on this forum) the software is seriously flawed (at least the questionnaire part).

As I have said before, I think the Hoya LifeStyle and MyStyle and very good lenses (I am very pleased with my LifeStyle Harmony), I just have a big problem with the ordering system.

That's unfortunate...the ordering system works flawless for us in Canada. I would suggest contacting your regional sales manager as they should have more insight on how your system works.

[sharpstick777]

I think its both dangerous and limiting to offer lenses from only one brand. Most manufactures design based on their own but one set of testing parameters (avg axial length, pupil size, and rx power) which can vary regionally and result in lenses often with very similar aspheric designs and features. Most lenses are variations of existing designs that the manufacturer already has, with many features that carry over.

Imagine playing golf. You have the best 7 Iron in the world, titanium and moon rock, it costs a fortune. Now imagine adding club to your bag, it adds a micro diamond hitting surface in addition to the titanium and moon rock, but its really still a 5 iron. I could still blow you away on course with a crappy driver and putter, simply because you need a full set of clubs in your bag.

There is no way with one brand you can cover every patient lifestyle need, shape, emphasis, design parameter or RX.

[ThatOneGuy]

Hoya, to my understanding, is not designing anything custom on the MyStyle product. They have several preset designs with which they are targeting and match to the patient rx (more like GT2 3D/short, than Individual 2). MyStyle selects the "correct" lens design based on the subjective data provided, then optimizes that design for the rx.

In terms of price, the additional costs of MyStyle is warranted due to the additional time, however, it is not additional quality.

[m0002a]

MyStyle selects the "correct" lens design based on the subjective data provided, then optimizes that design for the rx.

Unfortunately, it does not work well. I much prefer the Zeiss method of the patient and optician jointly choosing the correct design (such as ID 2, ID 2i, or ID 2n). Sort of the same way LifeStyle works, except it only has 2 options (Harmony and Clarity).