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Thread: Freeform Pricing??

  1. #26
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    I think the corridor lengths for both types are the same. In Australia for both Clarity and Harmony we specify if we want the 11 or the 14 mm corridor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obiwan View Post
    I think the corridor lengths for both types are the same. In Australia for both Clarity and Harmony we specify if we want the 11 or the 14 mm corridor.
    I am not doubting you on that, but since the Clarity is hard design (fast transition between far and near with little intermediate), and the Harmony is a soft design (long transition between far and near, with a larger intermediate), that sounds counterintuitive to me that they actually could have the same exact corridor length. But I could be wrong.

    Personally, I think Hoya treats opticians like idiots (especially the way the MyStyle is ordered, but also with LifeStyle), and probably doesn't want to confuse them with details.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post
    \

    How about use a mark-up formula (the same you use for all progressives) then apply it to the wholesale cost of each lens that you mentioned above?

    Regards,
    Golfnorth
    The trouble with that, IMO, is that it does not necessarily give sensible upgrade costs from one level of technology to another, and means opportunities for better margins on some products can be missed. I run a spreadsheet with a standard mark up formula to give me an idea of where a price should land, but I'll also tweak that a bit so it works with other products. If you're getting better pricing on Hoya product, there's no reason to charge less for an iD Lifestyle than a Physio, for instance.

    I also think one thing independents can learn from the optical chains is clear and easy upgrade pricing from one level of tech to another. I guess it's debatable what that cost should be, and it will be different from practice to practice. But if it's nice and simple, ie it's $100 to go from a Summit Trueform to an iD, it's a pretty easy sell, especially if that upgrade cost is consistent across materials (refractive index and Trans). It just makes things simpler. You won't get that from a straight formula mark up. Just my 2c, which won't suit everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    That sounds correct, but I don't believe the corridor for Harmony and Clarity are the same. I think Harmony is longer. In other words, the short corridor Harmony is longer than the short corridor Clarity, etc. Note that I am not talking about minimum fitting height, but the actual corridor length of the finished lenses.
    That I can't confirm. Companies only release a certain amount of technical data; the micro level detail I'm sure is proprietary.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    I am not doubting you on that, but since the Clarity is hard design (fast transition between far and near with little intermediate), and the Harmony is a soft design (long transition between far and near, with a larger intermediate), that sounds counterintuitive to me that they actually could have the same exact corridor length. But I could be wrong.

    Personally, I think Hoya treats opticians like idiots (especially the way the MyStyle is ordered, but also with LifeStyle), and probably doesn't want to confuse them with details.
    I don't agree with your last comment and is unfounded - in fact since I carry most major brands from all manufacturers at my lab from all manufacturers I have had training on all of them; Hoya has always provided the best detailed approach on understanding the product, technical data and how to promote and sell it properly.

    MyStyle is more complex and high end vs. other brands for sure and requires a detailed tutorial, no different than if you purchased a Bentley over a Pacer, you would require training on how to understand its systems to provide maximum value.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    I don't agree with your last comment and is unfounded - in fact since I carry most major brands from all manufacturers at my lab from all manufacturers I have had training on all of them; Hoya has always provided the best detailed approach on understanding the product, technical data and how to promote and sell it properly.

    MyStyle is more complex and high end vs. other brands for sure and requires a detailed tutorial, no different than if you purchased a Bentley over a Pacer, you would require training on how to understand its systems to provide maximum value.
    As I have explained in detail in other posts (and at least two other members have also agreed with me), the MyStyle questionnaire that the patient fills out to determine what kind of lens design they will get (hard vs soft, etc) may produce the exact opposite results of what is desired. I have documented in other posts what happened to me when I knew that I wanted a soft design with large intermediate, and I selected “computer use” as the highest ranked activity. But the MyStyle order summary said it selected a hard design with small intermediate (but good distance vision) for me, which caused me to cancel the order and get the LifeStyle instead (where at least I had some direct control over what I was getting (Harmony vs Clarity).

    My comments about treating opticians like idiots is that the Hoya MyStyle ordering system does not allow the optician to question the patient and make the decision as to which lens design to get (hard vs soft), since Hoya bypasses the optician and go straight to the patient questionnaire, which unfortunately is based on flawed software. In addition to trying to eliminate the optician from choosing the design (hard vs soft, etc), they have an iPad application that, using the built in iPad camera, takes all the measurements (PD, panto, vertex, etc) automatically, again eliminating the skill of an optician. I personally don't have a problem if they could actually eliminate the skill of the optician, if it was done correctly, but in my experience (and the experience of some others on this forum) the software is seriously flawed (at least the questionnaire part).

    As I have said before, I think the Hoya LifeStyle and MyStyle and very good lenses (I am very pleased with my LifeStyle Harmony), I just have a big problem with the ordering system.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    As I have explained in detail in other posts (and at least two other members have also agreed with me), the MyStyle questionnaire that the patient fills out to determine what kind of lens design they will get (hard vs soft, etc) may produce the exact opposite results of what is desired. I have documented in other posts what happened to me when I knew that I wanted a soft design with large intermediate, and I selected “computer use” as the highest ranked activity. But the MyStyle order summary said it selected a hard design with small intermediate (but good distance vision) for me, which caused me to cancel the order and get the LifeStyle instead (where at least I had some direct control over what I was getting (Harmony vs Clarity).

    My comments about treating opticians like idiots is that the Hoya MyStyle ordering system does not allow the optician to question the patient and make the decision as to which lens design to get (hard vs soft), since Hoya bypasses the optician and go straight to the patient questionnaire, which unfortunately is based on flawed software. In addition to trying to eliminate the optician from choosing the design (hard vs soft, etc), they have an iPad application that, using the built in iPad camera, takes all the measurements (PD, panto, vertex, etc) automatically, again eliminating the skill of an optician. I personally don't have a problem if they could actually eliminate the skill of the optician, if it was done correctly, but in my experience (and the experience of some others on this forum) the software is seriously flawed (at least the questionnaire part).

    As I have said before, I think the Hoya LifeStyle and MyStyle and very good lenses (I am very pleased with my LifeStyle Harmony), I just have a big problem with the ordering system.
    That's unfortunate...the ordering system works flawless for us in Canada. I would suggest contacting your regional sales manager as they should have more insight on how your system works.

  8. #33
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    I think its both dangerous and limiting to offer lenses from only one brand. Most manufactures design based on their own but one set of testing parameters (avg axial length, pupil size, and rx power) which can vary regionally and result in lenses often with very similar aspheric designs and features. Most lenses are variations of existing designs that the manufacturer already has, with many features that carry over.

    Imagine playing golf. You have the best 7 Iron in the world, titanium and moon rock, it costs a fortune. Now imagine adding club to your bag, it adds a micro diamond hitting surface in addition to the titanium and moon rock, but its really still a 5 iron. I could still blow you away on course with a crappy driver and putter, simply because you need a full set of clubs in your bag.

    There is no way with one brand you can cover every patient lifestyle need, shape, emphasis, design parameter or RX.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    .... however the MyStyle is the only lens currently on the globe that is a 100% true double sided free form design. Hoya literally surfaces the front side, then surfaces the backside creating incredible results on both the front and back - no other manufacturer is doing this (although they claim to be)..
    What is the technical advantage of a dual surface beside marketing? With current blocking technology there currently is no way to optically align the two surfaces perfectly, someone would have to invent some type of blocking on the edge, which would be incredibly difficult and expensive. Right now the lenses have to be deblocked, and reblocked on the other side by hand. Also generator geometry is only designed for back side surfacing.

    Additionally the front surface size area and compensations would have to specifically calculated based on a thousand different factors, and any cyl would really mess up the optical alignment. You would simply end up with some form of optical pudding on the front that would look like Lucille Ball making candy. Even the slightest misalignment would have severe optical consequences.

    As well, Darryl Meister had proven mathematically that you can address only one higher order aberration in a spectacle lens without causing optical consequences or an increase in another abberation. Basically you can only solve one problem without increasing another.

    Also, Hoya claimed the original iD was also dual surfaced. In mapping my iD Lifestyle and iD were both fairly messy lenses esp in the distance zone, but I have not mapped or worn the new Mystyle (just no time). But in the iD series my vision was actually better through the simpler version.

    I would have serious doubts about any dual surface design being better, until they can provide some math, solve the blocking issues, and explain how one surface will compensate for cyl on the other. Remember that Edward Tillyer in the 1930's proved that Cyl was optically vastly better on the back, its not hard to expand his work to conclude that the rest of the RX will benefit the same. Until someone can prove his math wrong that is just my opinion.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    That's unfortunate...the ordering system works flawless for us in Canada.
    How do you know sitting in the lab what is happening on the dispensing side?

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    Hoya, to my understanding, is not designing anything custom on the MyStyle product. They have several preset designs with which they are targeting and match to the patient rx (more like GT2 3D/short, than Individual 2). MyStyle selects the "correct" lens design based on the subjective data provided, then optimizes that design for the rx.

    In terms of price, the additional costs of MyStyle is warranted due to the additional time, however, it is not additional quality.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
    MyStyle selects the "correct" lens design based on the subjective data provided, then optimizes that design for the rx.
    Unfortunately, it does not work well. I much prefer the Zeiss method of the patient and optician jointly choosing the correct design (such as ID 2, ID 2i, or ID 2n). Sort of the same way LifeStyle works, except it only has 2 options (Harmony and Clarity).

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    Unfortunately, it does not work well. I much prefer the Zeiss method of the patient and optician jointly choosing the correct design (such as ID 2, ID 2i, or ID 2n). Sort of the same way LifeStyle works, except it only has 2 options (Harmony and Clarity).
    +1

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    What is the technical advantage of a dual surface beside marketing? With current blocking technology there currently is no way to optically align the two surfaces perfectly, someone would have to invent some type of blocking on the edge, which would be incredibly difficult and expensive. Right now the lenses have to be deblocked, and reblocked on the other side by hand. Also generator geometry is only designed for back side surfacing.

    Additionally the front surface size area and compensations would have to specifically calculated based on a thousand different factors, and any cyl would really mess up the optical alignment. You would simply end up with some form of optical pudding on the front that would look like Lucille Ball making candy. Even the slightest misalignment would have severe optical consequences.

    As well, Darryl Meister had proven mathematically that you can address only one higher order aberration in a spectacle lens without causing optical consequences or an increase in another abberation. Basically you can only solve one problem without increasing another.

    Also, Hoya claimed the original iD was also dual surfaced. In mapping my iD Lifestyle and iD were both fairly messy lenses esp in the distance zone, but I have not mapped or worn the new Mystyle (just no time). But in the iD series my vision was actually better through the simpler version.

    I would have serious doubts about any dual surface design being better, until they can provide some math, solve the blocking issues, and explain how one surface will compensate for cyl on the other. Remember that Edward Tillyer in the 1930's proved that Cyl was optically vastly better on the back, its not hard to expand his work to conclude that the rest of the RX will benefit the same. Until someone can prove his math wrong that is just my opinion.
    I am not a designer or optical engineer so I can't provide a rebuttal on such. However, thousands of patients in a clinical trial chose the double surface technology method over other well known global brands, so something good is definitely being achieved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    However, thousands of patients in a clinical trial chose the double surface technology method over other well known global brands, so something good is definitely being achieved.
    So here is a quest I would offer you... I am guessing your rep told you this. If I am right, ask them for a copy of the trial in print form or what we call a white paper... I bet first they will go "hhh, I will see what I can do". I bet you a tasty adult beverage they never come up with it, and quietly ignore the issue in perpetuity. Be very hesitant to believe manufacturer's or rep claims that they don't back up in writing.

    True story, when the Physio and 360 launched in 2006 I was told by my Essilor rep: The regular Physio was backside Free-form, the Physio 360 was dual sided Free-form. Neither was remotely close to the truth. The Physio didn't have a true Free-form option until the DRx launched.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    So here is a quest I would offer you... I am guessing your rep told you this. If I am right, ask them for a copy of the trial in print form or what we call a white paper... I bet first they will go "hhh, I will see what I can do". I bet you a tasty adult beverage they never come up with it, and quietly ignore the issue in perpetuity. Be very hesitant to believe manufacturer's or rep claims that they don't back up in writing.

    True story, when the Physio and 360 launched in 2006 I was told by my Essilor rep: The regular Physio was backside Free-form, the Physio 360 was dual sided Free-form. Neither was remotely close to the truth. The Physio didn't have a true Free-form option until the DRx launched.
    I'm well aware of what a white paper is. Having been previously employed by Hoya in an executive management role, I have seen the trial data first hand. I prefer a blonde amber on tap thanks.

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    Ahh...optical ego. Always a joy. Bottom line, MyStyle is not a customized lens design. MyStyle is a selection process (just like an Optician who selects the lens he/she believes will work best for their patient) combined with a surfacing technique. The surfacing technique sounds glitzy, but is only as good as the math behind it.


    When you take a preexisting lens design (target design) and optimize it for a given Rx, you perform better than a non optimized (non freeform) lens of the same design. When you split the design between two surfaces, the way a MyStyle does, all you have done is to grind the design on the front and back instead of using a mold...in other words, if the necessary best design was available in a mold, the performance would be identical. However, MyStyle can use a bigger variety of front "molds" because it custom grinds them.

    An iD Lifestyle 2 vs a MyStyle is a virtual wash, unless you are dealing with a high power Rx and/or fail to pay attention to what the patient needs, in which case a Mystyle will perform "better." In my opinion, though, they all leave a bit to be desired compared to an Individual 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    I'm well aware of what a white paper is. Having been previously employed by Hoya in an executive management role, I have seen the trial data first hand. I prefer a blonde amber on tap thanks.
    My treat... I am always at VEW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
    Ahh...optical ego. Always a joy. Bottom line, MyStyle is not a customized lens design. MyStyle is a selection process (just like an Optician who selects the lens he/she believes will work best for their patient) combined with a surfacing technique. The surfacing technique sounds glitzy, but is only as good as the math behind it.


    When you take a preexisting lens design (target design) and optimize it for a given Rx, you perform better than a non optimized (non freeform) lens of the same design. When you split the design between two surfaces, the way a MyStyle does, all you have done is to grind the design on the front and back instead of using a mold...in other words, if the necessary best design was available in a mold, the performance would be identical. However, MyStyle can use a bigger variety of front "molds" because it custom grinds them.

    An iD Lifestyle 2 vs a MyStyle is a virtual wash, unless you are dealing with a high power Rx and/or fail to pay attention to what the patient needs, in which case a Mystyle will perform "better." In my opinion, though, they all leave a bit to be desired compared to an Individual 2
    It's education not ego. You're entitled to an opinion as I am, but if you did your research assignment first, you would see the glitz is based on successful numerics, facts and outperforms the Individual on a global scale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    It's education not ego. You're entitled to an opinion as I am, but if you did your research assignment first, you would see the glitz is based on successful numerics, facts and outperforms the Individual on a global scale.
    The glitz comment is in regards to the global portfolio of lenses by all manufacturers. Not a knock against Hoya or any of their products (though I see how in the context of the paragraph I failed to make that clear). In fact, I enjoyed their (Hoya) marketing emails that said, "we did the math."

    I never get too excited about a lens out performing another lens. Remember New Coke? Remember Panamic? They did great in consumer studies and sales respectively. One was a commercial flop with great consumer feedback, the other a design flop with great sales numbers.

    Education is a funny thing. Perspective/Perception has far more to do with anything than education. Perception is reality, so if you perceive a product as being high quality and selling well, then that is your reality.

    Tying back in to the original post, when positioning a product (setting the price and justifying that cost), make sure that you are doing it based on what the product is, not what you think it does. MyStyle can certainly carry a more premium price because of the additional work it requires, and the advanced manufacturing techniques that it utilizes. Just use caution in presenting it to the patient as providing clearer/better optics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    How do you know sitting in the lab what is happening on the dispensing side?
    I split my time equally between manufacturing and my ophthalmic consulting business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatOneGuy View Post
    The glitz comment is in regards to the global portfolio of lenses by all manufacturers. Not a knock against Hoya or any of their products (though I see how in the context of the paragraph I failed to make that clear). In fact, I enjoyed their (Hoya) marketing emails that said, "we did the math."

    I never get too excited about a lens out performing another lens. Remember New Coke? Remember Panamic? They did great in consumer studies and sales respectively. One was a commercial flop with great consumer feedback, the other a design flop with great sales numbers.

    Education is a funny thing. Perspective/Perception has far more to do with anything than education. Perception is reality, so if you perceive a product as being high quality and selling well, then that is your reality.

    Tying back in to the original post, when positioning a product (setting the price and justifying that cost), make sure that you are doing it based on what the product is, not what you think it does. MyStyle can certainly carry a more premium price because of the additional work it requires, and the advanced manufacturing techniques that it utilizes. Just use caution in presenting it to the patient as providing clearer/better optics.
    Thanks for the clarification

    I do agree that all manufacturer's should base their marketing more on factual technical data rather than self claim marketing jargon.

    When you look at a marketing brochure for an aircraft or automobile, besides the shiny glitzy pictures of beautiful craftsmanship and engineering lies factual technical data and performance charts.

    The aviation and auto industry are strictly regulated which enforces authentic consumer marketing and protects the consumers.

    Our industry is also regulated but rarely enforce anything, but perhaps they should?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyefan View Post
    I haven't sold any Mystyles yet. Our rep quickly mentioned them and how the patients have to answer questions. We never got a list of questions and she never said what we do with the answers. Do you just send them to the lab? Or is there a program you enter them in? Thanks!
    https://www.mystylelensesusa.com/Login.aspx

    Go there
    account #
    and 10 digit phone number.

    you'll have all the info that you want. just send a dummy patient through.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Brown View Post
    I split my time equally between manufacturing and my ophthalmic consulting business.
    Unless you are directly interacting with patients, you don't really know what their experience is. It is even hard for opticians to always know, because dissatisfied patients don't always complain, they just don't come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by m0002a View Post
    Unless you are directly interacting with patients, you don't really know what their experience is. It is even hard for opticians to always know, because dissatisfied patients don't always complain, they just don't come back.
    Hence why owners need to stay in touch personally with their patients and not just rely upon hired to help to do all the dispensing and patient follow up. The dispensary requires special attention and is the real money maker in a practice, much more than the revenue generated from just exams.

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