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Thread: Tint recommendations for fluorescent light sensitivity?

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    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Tint recommendations for fluorescent light sensitivity?

    I have a patient asking what tint is best to help with discomfort under fluorescent light. My initial impulse is that any tint will increase lens opacity, which will add reflections from overhead lights, thus eliminating any benefit from the tint, but I bow to the collective wisdom of OptiBoard.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

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    It depends on the flouresent type. Older lights esp cast an over abundance of blue light, and pulse fierily. If pulsing is the issue tint can mitigate the perception but especially reduce the blue light issue. There are some migraine sufferers who can be triggered by this pulsing, it can simply cause eyestrain as the eye subconscious tries to adjust to light that changes 30 times a second.

    If they work at a desk, a multi pronged solution works best. I prefer a Crux 1 tint with AR to mitigate the blue light a lot, and the pulsing a little. The pupil seems less reactive. Its also good to put a regular desk lamp with an incandescent, LED or halogen bulb nearby.

    If they work in a factory or warehouse for example, you are more dependant on tint, go with a 1.5. vs. 1.

    The ideal solution is to use newer full spectrum bulbs, newer balasts and run the panels on alternating circuits so they don't all pulse at the same time. Its also the most expensive. But power companies will often foot the bill because this scenario also saves power, ours paid us to replace our ballasts and bulbs, but YMMV.

    It is a real issue and condition. But Tint works in 80% of the cases.

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    Blue Jumper Turn the clock back and check what happened then ...................................

    In the late 50s and sixties into the 1970's the best lenses sold for work under fluorescent light were the AO Cruxites A.B.C's and Bausch & Lombs Tonelight 1,2 and 3 and sold tyo anybody working inside somewhere.

    These pink/ brown shade can be easily copied on CR39 with a one or 2 minute dip in the hot dye. You wont even have to sell them the AR to make any extra money.

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    In the late 50s and sixties into the 1970's the best lenses sold for work under fluorescent light were the AO Cruxites A.B.C's and Bausch & Lombs Tonelight 1,2 and 3 and sold tyo anybody working inside somewhere.

    These pink/ brown shade can be easily copied on CR39 with a one or 2 minute dip in the hot dye. You wont even have to sell them the AR to make any extra money.
    Of course, we all know that trying to sell a 10-20% tint with an A/R does nothing beneficial for the patient, and only serves to bilk them out of moolah. Why would we design a lens with two features which directly cancel what the other is trying to do? Either eliminate light, or enhance it's transmission. Pick one in this case.
    Last edited by Uilleann; 07-16-2014 at 05:07 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    Of course, we all know that trying to sell a tint with an A/R does nothing benificial for the patient, and only serves to bilk them out of moolah. Why would we design a lens with two features which directly cancel what the other is trying to do? Either eliminate light, or enhance it's transmission. Pick one in this case.
    Because we simply live a world with glare, of many different types. Sunglasses are at their core lenses with tint, and I don't feel bilked by wearing mine.

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    In ample light situation the pupil the regulate the net amount of light reaching the retina, this only fails when the pupil is either at its smallest state or its largest, and the amount of light is either too much or too little.. so tints limit the total amount of light reaching the retina only after the pupil is fully dilated, like at night or in dark sunglasses (that is why backside AR is so important!) In lighter tints with ample light we are primarily adjusting the spectrum of light received not reducing its volume or lumosity. Its been clinically proven that colors can effect photophobia and migraines, and pulsing or flashing can be irritating and even induce seizures. I had an entire MD clinic once filled with photophobic patients who would literally vomit if exposed too much blue or white light. Adjusting color can have systemic benefits to some patients.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post
    I have a patient asking what tint is best to help with discomfort under fluorescent light. My initial impulse is that any tint will increase lens opacity, which will add reflections from overhead lights, thus eliminating any benefit from the tint, but I bow to the collective wisdom of OptiBoard.
    I would ask if other people in the office have the same problem, if their eye health is good, and if there is uncorrected refractive error or misaligned optics. Indoor tints are rarely necessary with healthy eyes.
    Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman

    Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.



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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    Because we simply live a world with glare, of many different types. Sunglasses are at their core lenses with tint, and I don't feel bilked by wearing mine.
    A polar (or tinted) sun lens, (can we assume an average of 15-20% VLT?) and backside A/R is a completely different animal than what was mentioned in this thread: 10-20% density tint with A/R front and back. Which is what I was getting at. Sorry that wasn't more clear initially.

    I agree that highly specialized and extensive testing by a qualified occupational optometrist can help to reveal therapeutic tints and densities, highly specific to an individual patient, which may offer some relief in highly specific environments and scenarios. However, I think we can all also agree that this minimal level of tint, coupled with an A/R process is self defeating.


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    Blue Jumper Its been clinically proven that colors can effect photophobia and migraines .........

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post

    Its been clinically proven that colors can effect photophobia and migraines, and pulsing or flashing can be irritating and even induce seizures. I had an entire MD clinic once filled with photophobic patients who would literally vomit if exposed too much blue or white light. Adjusting color can have systemic benefits to some patients.
    Thank you sharpstick, I knew that I was going to get knocked as usual.

    Something had to be done the right way in the past.....and for sure some of the things today are just to boost sales for somebody.

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    Master OptiBoarder AngeHamm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Thank you sharpstick, I knew that I was going to get knocked as usual.

    Something had to be done the right way in the past.....and for sure some of the things today are just to boost sales for somebody.
    Chris, you got knocked for introducing a snide comment that had nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation. All you had to say was "And you wouldn't even need to use an AR coating." If you want to talk about opticians "bilking" people out of money for unnecessary products, start your own thread to do it. I have a legitimate question here and your contribution is detracting from the dialogue.
    I'm Andrew Hamm and I approve this message.

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    Master OptiBoarder rbaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    In ample light situation the pupil the regulate the net amount of light reaching the retina, this only fails when the pupil is either at its smallest state or its largest, and the amount of light is either too much or too little.. so tints limit the total amount of light reaching the retina only after the pupil is fully dilated, like at night or in dark sunglasses (that is why backside AR is so important!) In lighter tints with ample light we are primarily adjusting the spectrum of light received not reducing its volume or lumosity. Its been clinically proven that colors can effect photophobia and migraines, and pulsing or flashing can be irritating and even induce seizures. I had an entire MD clinic once filled with photophobic patients who would literally vomit if exposed too much blue or white light. Adjusting color can have systemic benefits to some patients.
    I dont' have any information that will clear up this issue but I do have a few comments to contribute for your amusement. I notice that you are up in Seattle so I am not surprised that you found quite a few patients with "issues" effecting their light perception especially when you consider the fact that they were only exposed to direct sunlight for two or three days a year.

    As to your reference to flicker vertigo I had much experience with this phenomenon back in the sixties when, as a Marine Aviator, I flew rotor wing aircraft. In the early sixties it was noted by the military that there were quite a number of accidents for which there were no apparent cause. For example, on a beautiful sunny day a helicopter cruising at low altitude flew into the ground. Subsequent accident investigation found no evidence of mechanical failure and negative toxicology. Surviving pilots, however, reported vertigo and spacial disorientation.

    Finally, a Navy Flight Surgeon took a strobe light and exposed it to test subjects at around 50 cycles a minute. This induced vertigo in an alarming number of cases. What was happening was that if the rotor disc came between the sun and the pilots eyes the rotor blades at a typical rotor RPM of 180 created 50 or so flashes a minute which in many individuals will induce vertigo.

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Thank you sharpstick, I knew that I was going to get knocked as usual.

    Something had to be done the right way in the past.....and for sure some of the things today are just to boost sales for somebody.
    Interesting - in the past, there has been a plethora of docs and dispensers alike that have thrown this or that "miracle cure" (read: snake oil) at patients to cure all their ills. The problem was (and remains) that almost no one was performing the appropriate testing on an individual basis to see what tint color and density (if any) was appropriate for a given individual patient. They'd just sell the tints and call it a day. Worked well for the old blue blockers as well - and we still have entire generations of boomers and older wearing them, convinced of their infallible ability to make old eyes see better when driving in the dark. Those 1980's late night infomercials did their job oh so well.

    The last thing we as an industry need to do, is perpetuate bad medicine and science. And the reality is none of us (realistically) have the means, or training to accomplish the proper testing in these scenarios. To imply otherwise to our peers is irresponsible in the extreme. To dispense to patients in this manner is beyond the beyonds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeHamm View Post
    I have a patient asking what tint is best to help with discomfort under fluorescent light. My initial impulse is that any tint will increase lens opacity, which will add reflections from overhead lights, thus eliminating any benefit from the tint, but I bow to the collective wisdom of OptiBoard.
    As noted above, there are different types of fluorescent lights. 20 years ago a lighting specialist explained to me that you can go with with "cool" lights which appeared brighter and were richer in violet blue lighting or "hot" lights which had less blue and had more light at the red end of the spectrum. The cool blue lights were more common. Today, newer lighting fixtures make use of compact fluorescent lamps which also tend to be rich in the blue end of the spectrum.

    Assuming the sensitivity is to HEV light, the newer "blue" AR coating such as Nikon Seecoat blue, Hoya Recharge or Essilor Prevencia could help as could Blutech lenses. I am personally sensitive to artificial lighting rich in HEV light and these types of lenses have been beneficial. If additional reduction in the transmission of blue light is needed, go with tinted lenses.

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    Redhot Jumper science on blue light reduction is nothing else than a modern re-hash ...............

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Zewe View Post

    Assuming the sensitivity is to HEV light, the newer "blue" AR coating such as Nikon Seecoat blue, Hoya Recharge or Essilor Prevencia could help as could Blutech lenses. I am personally sensitive to artificial lighting rich in HEV light and these types of lenses have been beneficial. If additional reduction in the transmission of blue light is needed, go with tinted lenses.
    Anything that reduces blue light is in the same meaning blocking blue light more or less, if it is in today's times or back in the 1980s. The only difference is that the generic name has been forgotten or changed for commercial purposes by the large corporations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post

    Interesting - in the past, there has been a plethora of docs and dispensers alike that have thrown this or that "miracle cure" (read: snake oil) at patients to cure all their ills. The problem was (and remains) that almost no one was performing the appropriate testing on an individual basis to see what tint color and density (if any) was appropriate for a given individual patient. They'd just sell the tints and call it a day. Worked well for the old blue blockers as well - and we still have entire generations of boomers and older wearing them, convinced of their infallible ability to make old eyes see better when driving in the dark. Those 1980's late night infomercials did their job oh so well.
    ..........and they are still valid today.

    The generic blue blocker would only absorb 100% UV when tinted to over 70% absorption and are therefore not suited for night wear which seems to be common knowledge.

    However the blue blocking color applied in lower absorption levels will not absorb the full UV range
    but still block the visible blue light.

    Being aphakic on both eyes there is no better lens outside in the sun than a fully tinted generic "Blue Blocker" lens or whatever you want to call it. as well as a 30% to 40% absorption lens in front of s computer screen.

    The new so called science on blue light reduction is nothing else than a modern re-hash of what we have had since the early 1980s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Anything that reduces blue light is in the same meaning blocking blue light more or less, if it is in today's times or back in the 1980s. The only difference is that the generic name has been forgotten or changed for commercial purposes by the large corporations.

    The new so called science on blue light reduction is nothing else than a modern re-hash of what we have had since the early 1980s.
    I agree with you Chris, especially regarding blue blocking sunglasses. However, there are two things different between today and the early 1980s. In the 1980s, there were far fewer people working in front of computers and those who did worked in front of CRTs with a dark background and one color for letters and numbers such as green or orange. Accordingly, there was smaller market for an indoor blue filtering lens. The second difference is lens technology. You are talking about tinting lenses. Today we have the blue AR options which some may prefer for its combination of performance or aesthetics. My company sells both tinted and blue AR lenses and we sell far more of the blue AR lenses.

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    The rose tints were the response a century (or so) ago when fluorescent became a cheaper way to light indoors. They were sold as the best way to soften the reflection from white paper on desk tops. Easy and cheap, too...I still dye some lenses 'rose".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    Of course, we all know that trying to sell a 10-20% tint with an A/R does nothing beneficial for the patient, and only serves to bilk them out of moolah. Why would we design a lens with two features which directly cancel what the other is trying to do? Either eliminate light, or enhance it's transmission. Pick one in this case.
    A/R does two things; it greatly reduces surface reflection, and in the process, restores lost transmission. Just because it increases transmission doesn't mean that is all it does. Want to reduce light, or some wavelengths of light? OK, just overtint and then bleach back to the desired level, and then coat, and presto! a lens that is both absorptive and reflection-almost-free. That combo sometimes solves real-life problems. For the original issue, as mentioned the problem often isn't the color or intensity, but the flicker factor. Try a baseball cap for a few days; there is still flicker, but it is now noticeable only indirectly as reflections from surfaces. That reduction of intensity might make it possible to ignore when direct exposure won't.

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