A pt brought in his own Titmus frame with Z87-2 stamped on it. We don't have a Z87 stamp in the office and I was wondering whether we're legally allowed do dispense this pair of glasses without a Z87 stamp on them or without doing the drop ball test. We ordered him a pair of 3.0 center thickness poly lenses, but I still feel like it needs a stamp. Just trying to get a second opinion. We can send it off to a lab if we need to, just trying to figure out my options here. Thanks
If the frame is marked as a safety frame, you must glaze it with safety lenses. If you don't have the equipment to make and verify the lenses, send the job to your lab.
The markings on the lenses are the markings that, (whichever lab you use) choose to put on them to identify that they made the lenses at their lab. So yes. If you are going to put "safety" lenses into a Z87 frame they must be marked by the lab that makes them.
Now how about this one. John Q Consumer over the years has collected safety frames and is now retired, brings in one of his Z frames and tells you he is retired and would like dress thickness lenses put into the frame. Are you going to do it? Remember he is NOT wearing them on "the job" so he really only needs them to meet dress standards. And you need the funds to help pay your lab bill for the month.
Now people do not start telling us what your "gut feeling" would do. Tell us what you are bound by the letter of the, law, board, OSHA or whoever you want to quote. Give us a link to what rule, law or guidelines you are basing your decision on.
Nope. Won't do it. If it is a Z87 frame, Z87 compliant lenses MUST be installed, as you noted at the very beginning of your post.Originally Posted by CCGREEN
Now, that said, there is nothing that says you cannot obliterate the Z87 markings on the frame with a vibratory marker. If the Z87 markings are gone, the obligation ends.
Thanks Mike.
But you did what everyone does. You gave us your gut feeling or picked the wisdom out of your head expecting us to take your word as gospel. I want to know just how did you come to your conclusion. I'm NOT doubting you. I have NO reason to. I just want to know WHERE it is quoted that if using a Z87 stamped frame you HAVE to use safety thickness and marked lenses. We all know that if the person is still actively employed lenses and frames must be marked.
Cant really remove marks if it is stamped real deep into the material)
Well, CC if you'll front me the $75 for a copy of the standards, I'll give you chapter and verse. The "Systems" textbook says exactly what Mike says. If you wish to bear the liability for injury, knock yourself out. I don't know of a single lab that will glaze a marked safety frame with dress lenses. Even if the wearer is no longer employed with a requirement for safety eyewear, injuries can occur in as simple a scenario as mowing the lawn. Whoever has deep enough pockets will pay and pay dearly. Remember, ANSI compliance is voluntary. However, in a court of law knowing the standards exist and failing to follow them will not exempt you from liability.
CCGREEN:
A copy of ANSI Z87.1 can be purchased at http://webstore.ansi.org/. That would be the easiest way to resolve the question. Since OSHA recognizes the last 3 revisions of ANSI Z87.1 as the minimum requirement for safety protectors in the US, Z87.1 is de facto law in the US.
The Z87-2 marking in question was first introduced in 2003. ANSI Z87.1-2003 section 2.3.2 says:
Protectors bearing the marking Z87 or represented in any way as being in compliance with this standard, shall meet all requirements of this standard in their entirety. All components of eye and face protective devices shall comply with the requirements of this standard.
Section 2.3.4 says:
Components bearing the mark of Z87 shall not be used with non-complying components.
These two sections clearly require that if the frame is marked Z87 or some variant of that, then the lenses must fully comply. That means that the lenses must be able to pass the required impact resistance tests, and must be marked. Annex G indicates that all removable lenses are required to bear the "Manufacturer's Mark", which in this thread has been referred to as a "Z87 stamp".
As Mike noted, if the Z87 mark is removed from the frame, then Z87.1 would not apply and you could use any lenses you desired.
RT
Awesome RT.
Someone finally came along with with hard factual evidence like "Section 2.3.4............." and exactly where it is located. Stuff like this is much better then someone asking someone else to buy the book for them to study and find "chapter and verse" so they can point it out.
I'm just saying so many times we know what we are saying but have no idea where to look to get the info to back up what we are saying. When that happens then it is called hearsay. Hearsay can easily be skewed to reflect a opinion.
Sorry CC, I really don't want to spend money to prove something I already know. In fact something that every one of us as eye care professionals should know. Of course, you relied on someone else to do your research as well, no?
Thanks CC. And Thank RT, that was exactly what I was looking for.
*grumble*
I don't need to quote chapter and verse, I *know* what I'm talking about. It isn't "gut reaction" or anything else, but pure knowledge. I make safety eyewear all day every day. It's my job to know.
I'd like an apology, please.
Thank you RT for answering the question as CCGREEN simply asked. That is all that was needed, no snark, just documentation.
Apology extended Mike. Nothing said was meant to slight you in any way or bruise your ego. No one was questioning your knowledge. We wanted to know where you got it from.
The point I was trying to make, if one is willing to share their awesome knowledge with others who are not 'in the know'. Then those sharing, are obligated to share where their knowledge came from and not be offended when asked where it came from. (after all that is only sharing more wisdom)
Someone on here may be from Missouri, which is known as the "show me state".
Besides there seems to be a few on here who have learned from this thread which is what we are all here for.
Sorry you missed my point Judy.
Again, I was asking were you got your knowledge from. I did not ask if you already knew. I already knew the answer to what you assumed was the question. I was asking where it came from.
I didn't miss your point. I resented your manipulation of the question. As an Eyecare Professional, it is my JOB to know the legalities. Is there a reason you couldn't or wouldn't supply the information? Or must we now sing for our supper to maintain credibility?
Last edited by Judy Canty; 07-01-2014 at 05:14 PM.
What's with this "we" business? YOU posted the question. I almost think that you were just too lazy to look it up for yourself and used the opportunity to insult those of us who happen to have more knowledge about Z87 than you -- in otherwords, insulting those of us who don't have to look it up every time it passes over our desks.
gentlemen:
"what i need is a strong drink and a peer group." ... Douglas Adams - Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy
Experts, on this same subject, we always used to make sure the Z87 was stamped on all frame components, the front as well as each temple. Is that necessary?
@ Mike and Judy. Last time addressing this with you two. For some reason its difficult for you two to understand that I was not asking If you HAD to mark the lenses. Anyone who has been in the business as long as we have already KNOW lens are to be marked. I was asking WHERE it was in writing that it was to be done that way. Neither of you were able to provide me that information cordially as RT was able to do.
If I was a attorney asking the same question your answers would have been useless for me.
(refraining from snide remarks now) I hope you two have a good day and a awesome 4th of July holiday weekend.
Why ASK where to find it if you already have the knowledge? You should have posted where to find the information rather than question the knowledge of fellow experts? I don't understand where you are coming from CCGREEN. I reread the posts and just don't get it.
My last time as well: why don't you have a copy of Z87 sitting on your desk or in your filing cabinet? Seems to me that any reputable optician would have all of the source documents and standards at his fingertips, so that any time a question came up you can answer it yourself instead of what you performed over the past two days.
Ok now I am confused. The standards that Judy posted do not say anything about requiring the z87 stamp on the front of the frame, but she says yes it does. I also checked my ANSI standards and didn't see it stating you needed markings on the front of the frame, just on the lenses with the correct stamps for the different materials. Am I just misunderstanding or do frames need the z87 stamp on the temples and face of the frame?
Frames and shield markings for Rx:
o
All frames will have the manufacturer’s logo.
o
Size markings will be in accordance with ANSI Z80.5 – 2004 and will include the “A”
dimension, DBL on the fronts with temple length on the temples.
o
New! Impact rated frames will be marked “Z87-2+” on the front and on one temple.
o
New! Small head tested frames will be marked with the letter “H”.
o
New! All detachable sideshields are to be marked “Z87 +” if impact rated.
•
New!
My dear old dad likes to say that it's call the "Show Me State" 'cause you can't tell them folks nuthin'!
"Strictly speaking, there are no enlightened beings; only enlightened activity." -Shunryu Suzuki
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