Want to really be patriotic? Here's your chance!

[John R]

Got 1000/1 at ladbrooks that the machines would break down...not...
Funny how only Florida seems to **** things up at voting time....Must be something to do with Micky as we say over here...

[Chris Ryser]

I own a condo in Naples, Florida, in one of the larger condo associations in Florida....................and many more things go on than just ******ed voting machines. Many condo associations just ignore the laws and rules. The state has protection agencies for the protection of condo owners that do nothing or are on the side of the assocation.......or are being paid off.

The sun and warm weather in Florida not only attracts the good and innocent, it also attracts the ones that like to profit from the good and innocent

[Pete Hanlin]

I beg your pardon Mr. Hanlin,

We are not a group of "we're wealthy and feel guilty", but are of a mindset: "we're wealthy and thankful for our gifts in life, and will share with others less fortunate"...
Since your candidate didn't win, I will be gentle here...

Republicans like to share their good fortune as well (if I'm not mistaken, I believe studies have shown that Reps give more to charity per capita than Dems do, btw)... we just like to give voluntarily, instead of by governmental mandate!
;)

Really though, I thought McBride was pretty gracious last evening (were you at his Tampa party, I honestly looked for you on the TV). I would wager he might make a successful run in 2006 (by then, I might even vote for him).

[Laurie]

Hi Pete,

Rep's donate more to charity??? I would like to see that study!

(laugh laugh, tongue in cheek)

Yes, I was at the MCBride party last night...whined in my chocolate cake...

I was interviewed by 88.5 FM radio, but didn't make it on the big screen. My friend knows the McBride's very well and we hung out 'til the end. Although, it was not depressing at all. I believe that he was successful in getting education to the front in this election.

I guess people here liked his message, just not him!

: (

OK, I will start to regroup for the Mayor race here in Tampa. Would you like to attend a beautiful party for Frank Sanchez for Mayor?


: )

Laurie

[Pete Hanlin]

I guess people here liked his message, just not him!
OK, I will start to regroup for the Mayor race here in Tampa. Would you like to attend a beautiful party for Frank Sanchez for Mayor?
Actually, I thought McBride came across as a very likeable fellow (he has a pleasant smile, and he kind of looks like my childhood idol- Pete Rose, so...). He merely fell victim to a very specific line of questioning by Tim Russert in the final debate (kinda similar to how Ted Kennedy's run for the Presidency came to an end when he couldn't give a reason why he wanted to be President during a televised interview). Plus, I don't think the race was ever as close as the press had us believing it to be...

Education is going to be a HUGE issue in upcoming years (especially with the ridiculous "class-size" amendment being ratified last night)- I hope McBride was sincere in his offer to help the Bush admin (and I hope the Bush admin is wise enough to take whatever help they can find).

Anyway, its nice to have a friend who takes politics as seriously as I do (even if she is a bit misguided... heh, heh... just kidding).
;)
Maybe we could both volunteer to work the polls in Broward County next election, that'd be fun!

[Blake]

Glad to see Florida made it through the elections okay. Here in Alabama there was a "discrepancy" in Baldwin County (which coincidentally borders Florida) that led to some confusion in the governor's race. They're still sorting it out. Either way, it looks like the winner will win by only 3000 votes.

[shanbaum]

Pete Hanlin said:
(especially with the ridiculous "class-size" amendment being ratified last night

Elaborate, please.

[Pete Hanlin]

Please elaborate.
Well, it seems in Florida that- whenever an idea is too impractical to be passed through the Legislature- all one needs to do is get enough signatures to put it on the state-wide ballot as a referendum.

This year, someone had the great idea to make it part of the Florida state constitution that there should be a limit on how many children can be in a classroom. Never mind that we don't have enough teachers or facilities to handle the number of students we currently have... They got the required signatures on a petition, and BAM- you have a referendum to be voted on by the fine citizens.

As with almost every referendum, its phrased really pleasantly... something to the tune of- "Wouldn't it be really peachy to have mandatory smaller classes of students so they can receive more attention from their teacher? If you agree, vote 'yes.'" Actually, the real wording made the idea sound even nicer than my example, but I can't remember it all...

So- without any mention of the amount of money this amendment would cost, mind you- the well intentioned populace of Florida voted for this amendment (about 52% of them, anyway). Now, we have about 6 years to build new facilities, hire more teachers (who are also griping that they are underpaid- Florida ranks 30th among states for teacher's salaries), and reduce class sizes to the amount listed in the amendment (don't know the number, that wasn't included on the amendment).

Of course, we ALSO passed an amendment to provide free daycare (er, pre-school) for all children age 4 in the state, so we'll have to fund that too (after all, that's a nice sounding idea as well, isn't it?). Let's see, we also made it illegal to smoke pretty much anywhere (except in your own home, or a bar that doesn't serve any food, but give them time... give them time). We also mandated that pregnant pigs be given better living conditions, that the state government take a larger role in running the state university system, and that you get a tax credit if you build an extra room on your house for your mother-in-law (among other things that were passed as amendments).

Thanks for the invitation to elaborate- it has been cathartic! Someday, when my son takes Social Studies and asks me why we live in a Representative Republic and not a true democracy, I will point to things like this. The Founding Fathers had it right- the people cannot be trusted to truly govern themselves by majority (aka mob) rule. For all the moaning and groaning we do over the political process, there is a rationale behind it. Floridians are like little kids- gimme, gimme, gimme! When it comes to pay, though, daddy (or SOMEONE else) will just have to get the bill!

Can you tell I'm a wee bit frustrated? :)

[shanbaum]

Do you have kids? If so, do they go to public school?

[Chris Ryser]

I habe a Florida beef too, Pete,

I wont go into any details because that's a novel by itself, bestseller with a following TV serial lasting 10 years.................a la Seinfeld condo specials...................

Condo associations, the Bureau of Condominiums, the Florida Laws and nobody following them or the State protecting the people it should protect

I guess wherever we are we have something that's not right. Florida, Quebec or werever our crazy politicians that once elected dont make sense anymore.

[Refractingoptician.com]

''

[Refractingoptician.com]

]]

[Chris Ryser]

Gary said:
Eh, Chris :
Ah , you are in Quebec , non ? Whose attitude is sad ? They don't even wanna be a province .

French Quebecers (the fanatic ones) .......dont want to be Briish.......Canadians,,,,,,,,,,,,Queens subjects .....but would not mind joining the USA

[Pete Hanlin]

Do you have kids? If so, do they go to public school?
I have two children (Pierce, age 8, in second grade and Sara, age 6, in first grade), and they attend Xavier Cannellas Elementary (public school a few blocks from our house). My wife attended public school K-12 and I attended public school K-7. I believe in the value of public education, and think it should be adequately funded to provide a quality education to anyone seeking one.

However, I also believe the field of education has become an awful combination of special interest/ quasi-governmental agency. As such, it lobbies for more money as a special interest (teacher's unions) and then assesses taxes upon us as a governmental institution (school boards). Something about this dual-nature needs to be addressed, IMHO.

Also, I still believe parents are the primary contributors of a child's education. Our society can invest as much money as we please into the plans and schemes of professional educators, but if education is not being given a priority in the home (and if the parent(s) do nothing to reinforce the efforts of the teacher) we will continue to have the poor outcomes everyone complains about. Liberals seem to despise this notion, but it all comes back to family values (you know, two parents in the home that take an active interest in their own children... antiquated notion, I know, but it- um- WORKS!). You want children to get a quality education? Then it has to start with addressing the fact that only 1 in 4 children will graduate high school with the same set of adults in the home as they had when they started kindergarten.

Government can't make people stay togther and take responsibility for their children, but it CAN quit helping people shirk their responsibilties! Many of the "social" programs we've funded since the 60's do nothing more than encourage dissolution of the family! No, I don't know what an acceptible solution to the growing extinction of the American family is, but we need to start looking for ways to encourage families to stay together!

When I complain about this recent amendment, I'm not saying we shouldn't invest more money in public education. What I'm saying is this: the public cannot- and should not- be trusted to make decisions regarding specific mandates that involve finances beyond the comprehension of the masses. This was one of the reasons the Founding Fathers set up our Federal government the way it exists, and we seem to have circumvented the protections representative government provides here in Florida.

Finally, I firmly believe we should hold our educators responsible for the product they provide (taking into account that areas with lower parental involvement provide challenges). This has become a "Republican" idea, and I recognize it has its faults, but I believe you have to test students and make funding decisions based on how well the system is performing. I also believe that- if the local school is NOT performing at an acceptible level- parents should receive assistance in finding alternatives sources of education for their children (the controversial name for this idea here in Florida is called "School Vouchers").

Anyway, there you have it... Yes, I have children in the public eduation system (you might say, therefore, that I have a "vested" interest in the system). Yes, I want everyone to have the opportunity to receive a quality education. Yes, I believe many teachers are dedicated professionals who truly want to provide a quality product. No, I do not believe the current special interest/ governmental agency that education has become serves us very well.

[Laurie]

Hi Pete,

Remember your "educator" friend over here?

come on, now...

you live in a yuppy area, therefore, your school system is fine. same here.

However, there are still schools in Florida that do not have computers in every classroom with up to 40+ elementary children in each class. Shall we insist that those families get on the mountain with you, or try to meet them where they are at?

I know many teachers (including myself) who spend their own money for supplies as we have seen many budget cuts over the years.

dig deeper, my friend!

; )

Laurie

[shanbaum]

Pete Hanlin said:

Finally, I firmly believe we should hold our educators responsible for the product they provide (taking into account that areas with lower parental involvement provide challenges). This has become a "Republican" idea, and I recognize it has its faults, but I believe you have to test students and make funding decisions based on how well the system is performing. I also believe that- if the local school is NOT performing at an acceptible level- parents should receive assistance in finding alternatives sources of education for their children (the controversial name for this idea here in Florida is called "School Vouchers").

I can agree with you about the significance of parenting in childrens' academic performance. You perceive some dynamic between parenting on the one hand and government intrusion on the other - I wonder, did you support the Republican plan to provide a $500 tax credit for each child? In effect, pay people to have children? Now, there's a way to help ensure responsible parents. Brilliant political move, though - "see how much we love children?"

I've always believed (well, long as I can remember) that public education as presently constituted is a mistake. Why would anyone expect politicians - especially those at the local level, where races tend to attract religious fanatics with axes to grind - to know beans about education?

I don't see education being privatized, and I'm not sure that that would work well (if at all) either. But vouchers are certainly not a reasonable response; in the first place, the amounts that have generally been discussed are completely inadequate to cover private education. I've lived in areas where public schools spend less than $4,000 per student (North Carolina) and more than $8,000 (Connecticut). The voucher programs I've heard about offer on the order of $1,500. Big help - the private school I attended in Dallas now runs over $15,000 annually.

In the second place, if the idea is to create a competitive environment, where failing public schools would lose students and funds to private schools - what's supposed to happen next? We reduce the funds available to schools, and expect them to be, what, embarassed into improving?

I agree that public education is a mess, and that teachers' unions are one part of the problem. Over the years, my sons had a few genuine dingbat teachers, but the administrators claimed that they were powerless to fire them. So? How will choking off the air supply be therapeutic?

[CuriousCat]

Not all states have teacher's unions. Virginia does not. My parents are retired public school and I am adjunct faculty at the local community college. I buy my own chalk and have been using old frame and lens stock from my store when teaching lab classes. Hoya was kind enough to donate lenses last year, but as faculty my co-workers and I pick up the slack. In Virginia unions aren't the problem, voters with short-term memories are.

[Pete Hanlin]

Dig deeper, my friend!
It would appear I will have no choice but to dig deeper in coming years!

I think you may be misunderstanding my consternation over this whole issue. If I had any confidence that the current education system would use my money effectively, I would have no problem paying, say, up to an additional 1% of my income solely on education. Let's try to put this in a situation we should all be able to relate to, however...

Let's say we own a very large laboratory chain making eyeglass lenses. We have a few problems.

• Our workers are complaining that they aren't making enough money compared to workers at other laboratories (which is why, they say, our turnover is so high).
• We clearly have too many jobs coming through for the number of employees we have.
• Our lab is running at about 20%+ breakage (20% of the product is simply unacceptable).
• Our facilities and equipment are in need of repair and replacement.
• It is demonstrable that a certain percentage of our workers are simply unqualified to be lab techs, but we can't get rid of them because a.) there's no one to replace them with, and b.) there is a "system" in place that doesn't allow us to fire them.
• Any attempt to enact a system of tracking breakage is resisted by the employees and viewed with contempt.
• The employees routinely contact the customers directly with complaints about their working conditions, rate of pay, etc.

Given all these problems, we decide to let our customers decide how we should fix the problem (even though they have no knowledge of lab operations). They decide we simply need to hire more employees! What will happen to our business?

• It will be impossible to increase wages (the money was spent for more employees instead of increasing the pay of those currently with us). Of course, we COULD increase wages AND hire more employees, but the cost of the product is going to have to increase DRAMATICALLY (odd, since other countries have labs with much lower production costs and less breakage).
• The overall quality of the average worker will diminish (if we HAVE to have a certain number of workers, we'll have to hire whomever we can get).
• Breakage will increase.

All I'm saying is that we should be looking at the processes we are using in education- and we SHOULDN'T put ourselves under some mandate for a course of action that doesn't guarantee the results we're seeking.

I would really like to "bring everyone to the top of the mountain." The truth is (here comes the evil conservative in me, Laurie), some folks are quite content in the valleys, and money alone isn't going to get them on the path up the hill! Sometimes, schools aren't better equipped because not many people in the community give a freaking flip! Part of the school voucher program would allow parents of kids in areas where the public schools are in the gutter the choice to simply send their kids to another public school- but of course the education interests want none of that!

(Pete approaches the soap box and steps on up...) Abraham Lincoln walked miles to borrow books and get an education. There are plenty of people out there in modern society who grew up dirt poor and got an education through plain old grit. Even during the Great Depression families managed to educate their children through public education and attention at home. A good education starts with a desire to learn and parents that are 1.) there, and 2.) care. It is fostered by educators that are 1.) equipped and 2.) invigored. Good God, if you can't manage to get a good education in this country, you just aren't trying- I'm sorry, but that's just the honest reality. Even if you don't have a lot of money, you can find a quality school district to live in and if you are willing to work, you'll eek out an existence while your kids go to school (don't tell me it can't be done, I've watched employees of mine who were single moms do it on relatively small incomes).

Show me how we are going to actually improve the quality of education, and I'll happily give more money to the cause. However, don't simply ask me to "Dig deeper" for a system that does a cruddy job with the tons of money it already has! Why should we take money from schools that don't perform? Heck, why should we keep GIVING money to a school that doesn't perform??

How do you fix a lab with high breakage? First you DEFINE THE PROBLEM in the process! Test kids, and find out what they are and aren't learning. Pay attention to how the schools that are doing a good job are doing it, and give assistance to those that aren't getting it done right (all the Principals of the schools that received back-to-back "Fs" in the evaluations instituted under Jeb's admin were brought together for a conference on what can be done to improve staffed by principals from extremely successful schools). (Pete descends from the soap box refreshed...)

Obviously, there are different views on how to get the job done. Hopefully, there will be another amendment coming soon which will eradicate what just got passed (once it becomes clear just how much money we're talking about here and people realize it won't necessarily solve the problem). We have a Governor who has a State House and Senate who are overwhelmingly from his own party who has made an issue of improving education from day one. Hopefully, this large majority will mean he has the chance to at least TRY one coherent plan. If it fails, let's vote the whole lot of them out of office and give someone else a shot. If it succeeds, we're all the better off!

[Chris Ryser]

then we would have only bosses .................and nobody to do the work were you get could your fingers dirty...............and maybe no more breakage either.

Maybe we could have the prescription jobs done in a Chinese Laboratory and make a deal with Fedex, UPS, or DHL