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Thread: Trivex. Are you using it?

  1. #1
    Rising Star
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    Trivex. Are you using it?

    I keep reading so much about the wonders of this new material.
    Its as strong as poly. Its as light as poly. It feels like poly. It has a specific gravity similar to poly....Yet its not poly.
    My question is, why would you use it in lieu of poly?
    I also heard that you can obtain Trivex lenses coated in Teflon. Thats sound very interesting!
    What is the cost for Trivex as compared to a SV poly lens? Is trivex available in a pogressive?

  2. #2
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    Trivex has an abbe value of 45. Polycarb has an abbe value of 30. Trivex has much better optical quality than polycarb.

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    Trivex is currently only licensed by PPG to Hoya and Younger. They each have their own brand names for Trivex and the actual formulas are slightly different. The Hoya Trivex material is called Phoenix, and the Younger Trivex material is called Trilogy. Both Hoya and Younger offer Trivex in PAL’s, but check their websites for details.

    I don’t know the wholesale cost of Trivex products, but I was quoted a higher price (higher than 1.60 plastic or Poly) for Trivex lenses at 2 different opticians.

  4. #4
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    For that matter, CR39 has an abbe value of 58. Given this it has 'better optical quality' than Trivex. So why use anything else?

    Better yet, crown glass has an abbe of 59. Clearly (pun intended) is has the best optical quality of any available lens material. What aren't we all wearing glass then?

    In case my point is missed, there is more to a lens material than one specific characteristic. It's a combination of features as well as the patient' Rx and viewing habits that help determine the optimum lens choice for each person.

    Abbe is important, but it's importance diminishes with power.


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    I never suggested that abbe value is the only consideration. I was just answering the question. Probably the main reason when one would use Trivex instead of polycarb is when high impact resistance and tensile strength are “required,” but better optical quality is desired.

    In my personal situation, I choose the PAL lens design over optical quality and went with a 1.60 plastic (abbe 37) over Trivex (abbe 45). For my Rx, I judged the Varilux Panamic design to be superior than any of the PAL’s available in Trivex. Other people may reach different conclusions based on their Rx or other considerations.

    As to why I chose 1.60 over CR-39 or crown glass (and sacrificed abbe value), it was a combination of weight and cosmetics (as I think you obviously know).

  6. #6
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    Another option you could have considered is Spectralite (abbe 47) from my old company AO/SOLA. It comes in several very good PAL designs as well. It's impact strength is nowhere near that of Trivex or Poly however.

    But sorry - we're off track. What about Harry's questions? Is anyone dispensing Trivex? If so, what are the results you're getting?


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  7. #7
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    I want to clarify my remark above that “for my Rx, I judged the Varilux Panamic to be superior than any of the PAL’s available in Trivex.” I had to make this judgment without the benefit of trying both lenses. I did so based on many opinions I solicited for opticians and on research I conducted.

    A pair of PAL lenses (without frames) at retail cost me about $325 (I don’t get massive discounts like the rest of you) and I cannot afford to purchase two different designs to see which is better. How many times do we spend $325 on a product without even getting to try a demo model first?

    If someone from Younger or Hoya would like to send me an evaluation pair of PAL’s in Trivex, I would be glad to try them out. I can be reached at m0002a@qwest.net.

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    I looked very carefully at Solamax in Spectralite. I heard some conflicting information (of course I always head conflicting info on PAL’s), but I had two concerns. First I have a high plus Rx (+4.50) with a 2.00 add, and I could not find anyone who had such an Rx in Solamax to get an opinion from. In fact, based on info I found on the Sola website, it appears that the maximum plus Sphere value available for Solamax/Spectralite is +4.00

    Second, I heard that that Solamax has a shorter and narrower intermediate range than some other PAL’s. For some that may not be a problem, but for me intermediate range was a higher priority, and I have a fairly large frame height. Nevertheless, I do believe that Solamax in Spectralite is an excellent product and suits many people’s needs quite well.

    One of the frustrations I had with my search for the best PAL is that the best materials are not always matched with the best designs.

  9. #9
    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
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    Harry,

    Skipping all the other battle here between Steve and Moo Moo (sorry keep forgetting the name:-) ..I have done a number of Trilogy lens and everyone so far has liked them... from the wholesale point of view they are a LOT better to produce than poly because you have far less scratch problems in production.. the first pair I did a year or two ago I was so interested in seeing the "optics" I just popped it off the block, wiped it down with a towel and stuck it in the lensometer, not really thinking, than figured you bean head jerked it back out and started looking for all the multiple scratching, thinking it might be like poly and nope not scratch one..and this is an uncoated lens.. for me that was a miracle unto itself when dealing with poly..:-)
    I was a little disappointed that they have not came out with hard line segs yet, talk about missing the boat when the seg production in poly threw everyone into a tail spin..yikes what an oputunity missed.. That and the pricing is around 30% higher than poly, while we labs (or atleast mine) did not mark it up that much higher than a good quality high index most of my retailers tried to really mark it up big time and sells have fallen flat...amazing how greed can put you into a corner.. I do a lot of Younger product and it is nice to be able to have the full line in a large selection (polarized to trilogy) but still wished it would have been offered originally for a more competitive price to poly to get market share and to have it available in FT's and Tri's would have also been very helpful..
    All in all I like the stuff, produced on the same pads as poly even feels like poly when surfacing and have had no complaints about the optics...Harry find out who your rep is in your area and give them a call, I know my Younger rep here in FL. gives out coupons to redeem at the lab so people can give it a try... I for one like it and have not heard any negative things about it other than the costs..

    Jeff "no I do not work for Younger,PPG,Hoya etc., etc." Trail
    Last edited by Jeff Trail; 10-31-2002 at 03:18 PM.

  10. #10
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    No Jeff, you did not forget my name (or handle), you just like making personal attacks against people rather than attacking the arguments they make.

  11. #11
    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
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    First, by forgetting your name (handle) or whatever you want to be called is not an "attack"..how you got that is beyond me.. Second if you have been around for long in this site you would see I have NO problem debating an issue..as I'm sure Robert, Steve, Pete, Darris and Darryl and any number of others we have gotten into good ole fashioned debates with over the years I have been here..not once making it "personal" as you seem to think so..
    I was ANSWERING Harry's question, and If you didn't like the answer than show me where I was incorrect, in your opinion, where I use this material (trivex) on a daily basis in producing, purchasing, etc., etc.. I don't think you have, the biggest mistake I see you are basing your arguments on what is on the COMPANIES web sites and not having hands on experience in a day to day basis both in production as well as dispensing this material, and poly, while I do this EVERY day (sometimes wished I didn't have to) :-)
    I could point out a lot of mistakes where you are kind of missing the boat because you are basing your arguments on the company supplied information and not physical experience in producing and dispensing the product..but as Steve said what would be the point in debating you over the issues..I answered Harry's questions..and don't feel like having an argument about something I already know to be for a fact :-) I take it from your posting you tried Poly, hated it and went to a mid or high index material? Right so far? Than you became a member of the "poly" haters club.. did you also know that the way the poly's are produced also has a great bearing on the optical quality? NOT just the abbe value which is a by product of the base material, If you had been around a while you would know that Pete and I have clashed a number of times over the "when and where" poly should be used (never taking it on a personal level either) But you may want to do some more digging on the actual processing of the lens and find out how the difference of being a cold or hot cast poly effects the internal aberrations in the optical quality of the lens as well. the difference between high pressure injected molded lens compared to gravity molding, type of production from the base molded blank (generating) done on a two axis or three axis generator makes a difference, even the "king" of poly Petemiester (sorry Pete had to throw a jab in somewhere :-)) hated to produce ground in-house poly's in bifocals, the consistency is tough to maintain in poly production.. etc. etc..
    If you would have given Pete the benefit of the doubt in the other thread as well did a little digging in the archives of this site you would see he also knows (as any GOOD experienced optician) poly is not the end all answer to every optical problem as you seem to think we think..It is not as simple as "well the abbe is 30 in poly..and 40 whatever in this other material so it is far better ALL the time" It is a lot more involved than that.

    I think you are the type who no matter what I say or said as long as it does not fit into your agenda than you are going to write it off as incorrect, so why waste my time... you see it how you want to see it and I'll do the same.. no argument there. You want to put more meat behind your answers than find out a little more than the basic stuff supplied by the lens company sites.. you have any questions feel free to ask.. other than that I'm done with this thread unless Harry has a question.

    Jeff "NO I don't work for any lens company" Trail ..

    feel better now? :-) ..guess I can argue, when painted into an optical corner after all..
    Last edited by Jeff Trail; 10-31-2002 at 03:18 PM.

  12. #12
    sub specie aeternitatis Pete Hanlin's Avatar
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    Actually, I have worn a pair of Trivex lenses (the subject of a now ancient thread). The optics seemed fine, but experience has shown me that I'm not as discriminating as some when it comes to optical characteristics (my dad can pick out aberrations in a windshield that I'd never be able to notice even if he circled them). Honestly, however, I haven't ever heard anyone who thought the optical characteristics of Trivex were less than great (then again, the same is true for glass...).

    I wasn't aware that Trivex doesn't come in a lined seg yet, but I would speculate that this is due to difficulties encountered when the product is cast (either that, or the fact that segmented multifocals are an extremely low profit margin item for lens manufacturers).

    Like all things, you should try them out for yourself Harry. Get a pair, edge them (or whatever else you do in-shop) and see if they fill a niche. Any disdain I may have for Trivex probably comes from the ridiculous way its been marketed against poly (which is really odd, because when pressed the manufacturers will say they aren't marketing it against poly at all).

    If you are a small shop selling a few pairs, the extra cost of the material might not be prohibitive. If you are a huge chain that stocks 100's of pairs per location, its going to involve a significant investment (which is why, IMHO, Trivex is never going to take off- the extra cost of the material simply isn't offset by the benefits). As a consumer, I sure wouldn't pay extra for it ("Let me see, its 1.530 and it costs how much more than a 1.586 polycarbonate lens that comes in every design I could possibly desire?").

    So, try Trivex! Don't worry, poly will still be there waiting for you (like a good friend) when you come back!
    :D
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    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
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    m0002a said:
    I looked very carefully at Solamax in Spectralite. I heard some conflicting information (of course I always head conflicting info on PAL’s), but I had two concerns. First I have a high plus Rx (+4.50) with a 2.00 add, and I could not find anyone who had such an Rx in Solamax to get an opinion from. In fact, based on info I found on the Sola website, it appears that the maximum plus Sphere value available for Solamax/Spectralite is +4.00

    Second, I heard that that Solamax has a shorter and narrower intermediate range than some other PAL’s. For some that may not be a problem, but for me intermediate range was a higher priority, and I have a fairly large frame height. Nevertheless, I do believe that Solamax in Spectralite is an excellent product and suits many people’s needs quite well.

    One of the frustrations I had with my search for the best PAL is that the best materials are not always matched with the best designs.

    What Steve was getting at was the "material" spectralite... all of AO/SOLA PAL's are avaiable in that material, not just the Solamax (a shorty design) ... you got the Percepta, VIP,XL, Visuality etc., etc., also in the base material "spectralite" as well..:-)

    Jeff "Oh what a tangled web we weave" trail

  14. #14
    Forever Liz's Dad Steve Machol's Avatar
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    m0002a said:
    No Jeff, you did not forget my name (or handle), you just like making personal attacks against people rather than attacking the arguments they make.
    There was nothing in Jeff's post that qualifies as a 'personal attack'. Your accusation was uncalled for and inappropriate.


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    Master OptiBoarder Jeff Trail's Avatar
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    m0002a said:
    I looked very carefully at Solamax in Spectralite. I heard some conflicting information (of course I always head conflicting info on PAL’s), but I had two concerns. First I have a high plus Rx (+4.50) with a 2.00 add, and I could not find anyone who had such an Rx in Solamax to get an opinion from. In fact, based on info I found on the Sola website, it appears that the maximum plus Sphere value available for Solamax/Spectralite is +4.00

    Second, I heard that that Solamax has a shorter and narrower intermediate range than some other PAL’s. For some that may not be a problem, but for me intermediate range was a higher priority, and I have a fairly large frame height. Nevertheless, I do believe that Solamax in Spectralite is an excellent product and suits many people’s needs quite well.

    One of the frustrations I had with my search for the best PAL is that the best materials are not always matched with the best designs.

    What Steve was getting at was the "material" spectralite... all of AO/SOLA PAL's are avaiable in that material, not just the Solamax (a shorty design) ... you got the Percepta, VIP,XL, Visuality etc., etc., also in the base material "spectralite" as well..:-)

    Jeff "Oh what a tangled web we weave" trail

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    Jeff,

    To be more specific, the reference to "Moo Moo" was unprofessional and uncalled for.

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    Master OptiBoarder Cindy Hamlin's Avatar
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    m0002a said:
    Jeff,

    To be more specific, the reference to "Moo Moo" was unprofessional and uncalled for.

    I have been watching the exchanges on this thread and must come to Jeff's defense (not that he needs defending!). To be honest MOOO2A, when you are reponding to a thread and a person hasn't used a "name" it is hard to, when you are trying to respond to them, remember the name. I am certain, having seen the posts that Jeff has left that he meant no disrespect to you at all, but forgot your ID. I have done that and even addressed the wrong person before. It happens!

    Now back to Harry's question.......

    Harry said:
    My question is, why would you use it in lieu of poly?
    I also heard that you can obtain Trivex lenses coated in Teflon. Thats sound very interesting!
    What is the cost for Trivex as compared to a SV poly lens? Is trivex available in a pogressive?
    ~Cindy

    "If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." -Catherine Aird-

  18. #18
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    Jeff,

    I am well aware of the other Sola PAL designs. I have previously worn Sola VIP in Spectralite (with a much lower Rx than I have currently). I am also familiar with Percepta in all its materials including Spectralite and Finalite (1.6). Although I believe that both Spectralite and Finalite are among the better materials available, I was persuaded by an optician that I trust, that for my Rx Varilux Panamic would be better solution even if Sola has better materials.

    As to your statement that I am basing “arguments on the company supplied information and not physical experience in producing and dispensing the product,” nothing could be further from the truth. The only thing I take from the company websites is factual information. I think I am savvy (or skeptical) enough to ignore marketing claims that cannot be substantiated. Besides my own experience with lenses, I have sought out and obtained the advice of best independent opticians and other sources I could find. I think I have done quite well in that regard.

    I am not against the use of polycarb in all situations. I have recommended them to persons with only vision in only one eye many times on sci.med.vision internet newsgroup, or when the Rx is fairly low.

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    Cindy,

    Trivex is available from Hoya (Phoenix) and Younger (Trilogy). Hoya has the GP Wide and Summit ecp PAL's with Phoenix. Younger has the Trilogy Image PAL.

    http://www.hoyaopticallabs.com/lens_matrix.htm
    http://www.youngeroptics.com/product...ocessing.shtml

    Trivex seems to cost more than polycarb. Someone mentioned on another thread that the wholesale cost is 30% higher than polycarb. At retail, I saw about a 20% difference for the Trilogy. This may depend on which supplier is used.

  20. #20
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    First, let me say I am employed by a Hoya lab and I am also a licensed optician. That said.....Phoenix is available in two very good PAL designs, ECP & Hoya Wide. Hoya also has Phoenix in FT28, Aspheric & Spherical SV, Hoya Wide & SV Transitions product!!
    The Abbe value is 43, it is a 1.53 Mid Index product which Hoya grinds to a 1.3 center thickness. It's optics are fantastic and its impact resistance is equal to Poly.
    I have worn both 1.60 & Phoenix, they are both great optically and very scratch resistant with the HiVision AR. I have worn both materials in Hoya Wide progressives and ECP, personally I prefer the new ECP for it's wide intermediate and great reading area.
    Sorry to ramble a bit but just wanted my experience and information out there. :)

  21. #21
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    LO1007,

    What is the price difference between ECP in 1.60 and Phoenix (Trivex)?

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    Master OptiBoarder Joann Raytar's Avatar
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    Re: Trivex. Are you using it?

    HarryC said:

    My question is, why would you use it in lieu of poly?
    I also heard that you can obtain Trivex lenses coated in Teflon. Thats sound very interesting!
    What is the cost for Trivex as compared to a SV poly lens? Is trivex available in a pogressive?
    Harry,
    We have used Trilogy for some of our drill mounts. It isn't as thin as some materials but it is extremely lightweight. I really like the clean way it drilled; no sign of stress around the holes and none have come back with cracks.

    It wholesales around the same price as quality high index. Since we let our wholesale lab edge and drill most of our three piece mounts they run around the same price as high index Panamic uncut for a Younger Image in Trivex.

    We are still filling most of our progressive drill mounts with poly because of the cost. We only recieve a 50% discount on Dr's changes and Optician errors and we aren't credited for any bells and whistles on PAL non-adapts so we would be charged for the Trivex and only credited for a base Image on a non-adapt. In any case, a remake could prove to be expensive in Trivex. The lenses are too expensive to charge a normal markup to the customer so we a wary of using the lens for other types of frames. The cost doesn't out-weigh the fact that it is not as thin as other materials.

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    Phoenix ECP is $31.00 less than 1.60 ECP

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    At one retail optical shop (my OD) I was quoted $330 for Younger Image Trilogy (Trivex) and $215 for Younger Image Easy Lite High Index 1.55. I am not sure if Younger Image comes in a 1.60 plastic. A/R coating was $70 extra.

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