Was just curious how other offices handle the FINANCIAL part of the non-adapts? I don't currently offer the PAL charge back but have offered half of the amount towards another purchase. Does that seem fair enough to most on this forum? We don't receive credit from any of the labs we use so I can't see ever refunding the whole amount?
We don't give any money back, just credit towards something else. I have to say though, I can't remember the last "real" non-adapt we've had. Most of our non-adapts are the few folks we get each year that can't be satisfied with anything. When the vision's good, the frame sit "funny". The frame fits correctly and they start receiving messages from outerspace through their nosepieces or something like that....
I just fell out of my chair laughing at that!! I think those Same pts travel around to other offices just to make our lives interesting! :))Originally Posted by Johns:478029
No credit for prog. non adapts. We do put them into a ft 28 or single vision. This is understood upfront.
Our Lab has a PAL non Adapt policy that we extend to our patients:
1 Non Adapt remake at no charge. We'll remake you lenses into: Another PAL Design of the same or lesser charge at no fee, upgraded PAL will be the difference of the cost, Or be made into Trifocals, Bifocals, or Single Vision lenses at no cost. If it is more that 1 remake from the original remake then it's 1/2 price and IF it takes a 3rd remake then it's full price.
99% of all my PAL first time wearers ask what is the policy, and it's explained that they get 1 remake at no cost if the same or lesser value and that no money is given back due to the fact that the lab and we must endure the cost of purchasing and making the original lenses and the second pair of lenses and that it is unknown if and how they will adapt to a PAL lens, only trying it will tell. And that not every PAL is right for everyone. There are many different designs for many different fits, purposes and lifestyles, often it's an art and science if finding the right one for them.
In 6 years I have only ever given money back on 3 pairs of PAL's with this policy. One was due to the Dr changing the material and I didn't catch the Base Curve Difference causing the patient discomfort.
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
~ Mark Twain ~
If you would not recommend and sell PALs ............................................
If you would not recommend and sell PALs as of +2.00 addition and over you would have no non adapts, and no problems.
(as per SL "The former name of Essilor" when they launched the first Varilux in 1958)
What did "SL" stand for?
Société des Lunetiers.
http://www.essilor.com.au/essilor-ce...sel-and-silor/
Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. - Richard P. Feynman
Experience is the hardest teacher. She gives the test before the lesson.
Man, that's cool.
Chris,
Have your tried a lens in the modern era? I am guessing your last pair where made of glass photogray. Since our average client is over 60 we do most progressives with an add over +2.00 and they seem to be very happy. This is evident by the repeat business and no one comes back telling us no more progressives; it is the opposite and we actually dispensed 2 today that swore they could not wear a progressive. Both of them had an exam with our OD and they where thrilled. One was a 50 yr old and the other was a 76 yr old German man who wanted two cheap pairs but settled on one nice pair. He could see and read down to 20/15 as soon as he put them on.
Chris don't knock what you don't wear.
I think this is the biggest problem with progressives over +2.00 add. The corridor is too long, Switch to short corridor and most of the non-adapts will be happy.
I only knock what I have learned NOT TO DO. Your segments of all these expiered patents of progressive lenses on todays market might very well be larger, but lets not forget that with a larger segment comes also a higher distortion factor into the game.
To older people with progressively more vision problems, pushing them into a modern world of more expensive, but worse optics seem to be a un-fair practice. They might say that they see fine .............but they could see clearer through the whole lens surface with zero distortion.
You will agree with me sometimes down the road when you get into the category "old" when driving gets harder in the dark and the letter in the newspapers or books start to flimmer when reading, and you can not remember the phone number you dialed one minute ago.
There are probably more opticians on this planet that have problems fitting progressive lenses than the ones that do. The over plus 2.00 add are the ones that need a perfect fit and that is why there are so many redos and that is the other reason for non adapts.
As said above, the short corridor comes with even more side distortion which does no visual favour to the older age users of that type of lens. You make more money and the patients sees less than he could with a regular bifocal.
Honestly, heights for mature adds are rarely the issue. What is important is that the total add be prescribed correctly, the corridor length chosen is appropriate for that individual and frame, and that the intermediate channels be aligned optimally for monocular use. Also, comfort is a big one, and I find a good general use progressive with a +0.75D magnetic layer is often ideal.
b
Last edited by Barry Santini; 02-06-2014 at 10:08 AM.
i fit plenty of over +2.00 add powers just fine. I think a lot of the reason for non adapt issues is not having a lifestyle conversation with your patient to make sure that it will actually work well for them. Certain professions i would never fit with a PAL, someone with vertigo i would probably not recommend for a PAL, etc. Someone with a high RX that doesnt want to go with a digital or wider corridor design i would probably recommend they consider a different design as well. picky types who i know wouldn't be happy because they would HAVE to give up a little bit to gain the additional areas. there would probably be fewer remakes if we all listened and had a long conversation with our patients about how/when/where they will be using their glasses.
That being said, we do the remakes at no charge, sometimes to our disadvantage. We do not refund the difference between, and i will have the conversation with them about how we have to pay for both pair also etc etc. there are patients i wish it was valid to tack on a PITA charge, but you know, no such luck
"what i need is a strong drink and a peer group." ... Douglas Adams - Hitchikers Guide to the Galaxy
Our average add power as most is 2.25 and 2.50 if we only fitted under 2.00 add we would sell very few PAL's. If dispensing the right lenses and fitted correctly there should be very few non-adapts.
Again and again , we have remade lenses only because of shift to short corridor. It's so prevalent that short is all I use. FWIW
Why, if you worked at my wonderful chain, you would first watch your associate sell the cheapest PAL, because they are convinced there is no difference in the oldest crap to the newer decent stuff. Then they would make sure that all their measurements were wrong, because they weren't quite sure how to use the acme fit measuring tools that are 1 billion times more accurate than the old crusty way of measuring. Than they would run out the door quickly, so that their poor optician has to dispense the crappy old PAL fit at a height so short you would think they modeled the height after a pair of daisy dukes to a first time eyeglass wearer. Of course this was also after they told the person that all PALs have no distortion and require no adaption.
After all these fine steps you would eat crow, apologize until you lose your breath, remake the glasses at both a loss and with better materials because they weren't even told that you offer better products, and make your lab rats work twice as hard to do what should have been done in the first place.
Sorry, LOL, I am still coming down off my 11 hour work day! Also, I have worked in private practices where we more or less followed JP's version of events while also dealing with lots of Johns patients.
Hi Barry, I agree with you. But I have a question do you routinely measure distance PD and actually measure near PD then order the PAL with the actual dist and near PD's. I feel you can design a much better lens doing this than just knocking off 3mm from the dist PD. I have a hard time convincing people about this but I work with many patients with convergence inefficiencies/excesses and it makes sense to me that all patients should have these measured and factored into the lens. I would appreciate you input on this one.
Also what do you mean be magnetic layer ADD? I feel dumb but I never heard of that term.
And to answer the original question we have every patients sign our privacy/financial/warranty/remake form when they get an exam and/or glasses. We don't charge for downgrading into a FT for non-adapts but our lab also doesn't charge us within 90 days. The patient gets a copy of the form to keep.
Once again, proof that PAL's are presenting problems to the optical community. You shouldn't give that patient ONE penny back. They are just out of luck. PAL non-adapt just means that a patient doesn't like the concept of a progressive lens! It's not some arcane medical term that has any meaning other than what I just said. I love how opticians act like a PAL non-adapt patient is like a cancer patient or something. You won't have anymore "PAL non-adapts" if you just tell them patient ALL of the CONS of having a progressive lens.... Some opticians here are like a Zoloft commercial when they are selling progressives; tip-toeing around telling the pt. the burden of the PAL experience.
Are you any relation to optician 1234??
Chris never personally adapted to progressives so he just can't believe that other people really truly like them and see well out of them. Many people over the years have tried to convince him but since he doesn't like progressives they have to be wrong.
I personally find the line on flat tops very distracting and distorting but I realize some people don't and are happy with them. Isn't it nice there are choices?
Last edited by Happylady; 02-09-2014 at 10:44 AM. Reason: Clarity
At visionworks/eyemasters we will remake the lens for our patient or offer a refund. In my short experience as a Licensed Optician (6months) I have found most non-adapts to be the result of incorrect Rx/measurements etc. I fit my grandfather a FT wearer for 30yrs into a prog and he loves it! But I always interview my patient before hand. Some ppl are just happy with bifocals and that's fine
Please listen to my advice: QUIT EYEMASTERS!!!
Oh yeah? It's not the best but the pay and benefits are good. Wanted to work in private office but I found there to be a huge pay difference
I worked at Visionworks for a few years in Chicago-- Very stressful retail environment, but I guess having the opportunity to the know basics of lab equipment was a plus-- but opticians shouldn't feel like bad employees for not keeping up with sales goals.
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