Trade? or Profession?

[Johns]

Sigh...here we go again.

I think the advancement of opticianry and different ideas as to how to accomplish that is worth discussing. Each time it is brought up, new ideas are brought out, and I don't think they can be discussed too much. Someone approached me at VEW and said they are beginning to have hope in the future of this profession, and I think it is from continued discussion.

Educating OD's? Sure, why not?
People against formal education? Let's find out why.
Opticianry needs to be branded? Let's have even more ideas.
Wages are low? Why?

Here we go again!! Yes!!!

[Jason H]

Johns, respect your opinion and hope you're right.

[MakeOptics]

Sigh...here we go again.

As a sales rep doesn't your value to the practice you serve increase with their decrease in knowledge?

I have always found it interesting that people with conflicts of interest in this profession can assume leadership roles and use the title optician, it is the other side of the dumb optician spectrum, the beyond optician. Its the middle of the pack whom I find often has the valid arguments towards what the future should look like.

[Judy Canty]

As a sales rep doesn't your value to the practice you serve increase with their decrease in knowledge?

I have always found it interesting that people with conflicts of interest in this profession can assume leadership roles and use the title optician, it is the other side of the dumb optician spectrum, the beyond optician. Its the middle of the pack whom I find often has the valid arguments towards what the future should look like.

Normally, you're on my ignore list, but here goes. What exactly are you trying to say? That, as a rep, my value is relative to the inexperience of staff? I don't use the title Optician. I have the license and the experience to back it up. Of my 40 years in this industry, only the last 7 have been as a rep. Again, what are you trying to say?

[MakeOptics]

Normally, you're on my ignore list, but here goes. What exactly are you trying to say? That, as a rep, my value is relative to the inexperience of staff? I don't use the title Optician. I have the license and the experience to back it up. Of my 40 years in this industry, only the last 7 have been as a rep. Again, what are you trying to say?

I'm not looking for a fight, I find that most reps are not interested in an educated optician or even have the optician on their radar. Opticians traditionally are not the largest group of decision makers around, unless you count "no thank you" as a decision.

You are a sales representative, if I am not mistaken. It's similar to a lumberjack calling themselves a carpenter, you were a practicing optician and now you're not. I don't understand why my post would make you upset, I called you something beyond optician not the dumb optician or the middle of the road optician. Anyway put me back on your ignore list, thank you.

[CCGREEN]

mcdonald...........you came across sounding a little bit heated last night at 7:10 PM when you responded to my post.

May I please ask that you do not put words into my post that I did not say. It is very misleading to those who may be trying to learn this profession.

I now quote wmcdonald, his words not mine. "What you said in your post is that it takes so little to do what we do we should never learn it in the first place, so why bother?"

wmcdonald if you were any farther off base you would fall off the earth. I'm sorry if that is what you got out of my post. If I felt the way you were saying then I surly would not of spent all that time and money in education then turn around and spend as much time in this field as I have.

I will try one more time. I have yet to ever come across anyone who uses every aspect and every mathematical calculation of opticianry every day. Who out there calculates a slab every day you are at the office? Its just a fact that some are better at sales some at lab work some at trouble shooting some at business. Then there are those that are not good a much else but being a great public relations person.

Show me someone that thinks they are good at all of it all the time and I will show you someone who is full of them selfs.

All the education and prepration is great. To learn all that you can is awesome. That way you then can put it all on the shelf in reserve so that maybe someday you may need it and can call it back up on the spur of the moment. But for most of us we have to "refresh" the issue before we are 100% sure of what we are dealing with.

[Judy Canty]

BTW, my license is still current and I continue to take CE's, though it is not required in VA. I am not embarrassed by my dual title, nor are my skills in either position in any way diminished. The last pair of eyeglasses I fitted was in June, 2013, because I could...legally and competently.

[Uilleann]

This continued argument about the 1% opticians and their "high standards" is like throwing a peanut in the ocean and expecting a tsunami.

Ask yourselves - why are there so few of us as an industry/trade/profession who have invested thousands into advanced educations to fill ourselves full of theory and formula's we almost never use on a daily basis? Why are doctors and dispensaries across the nation looking for the least expensive employees they can find, and then trying to "mold" them to fit their image of what they feel they want/need (ie: the dreaded and oft maligned 'frame stylist' etc)? Why are the internet companies booming (according to old Chris here anyway) without a care for the silly laws/regulations/restrictions in place to "protect the public" in the few licensed states left?

The train has left the station - there is no going back to the way things were, or some pie in the sky dream of magical optician degrees popping up nationwide to churn out perfected optical lens design engineers. The optical consuming public has spoken - and doesn't demand or want to pay for any more than they already do by and large.

Stop. Think.

If some vague educational requirement were really in the public's best interest, or more restrictions were needed, you would see states actively pushing for the same nationwide. Reality shows a very different path however. When was the last state licensed...the 70's? There's hardly a rush to the front of the que to increase or standardize requirements. And the web continues to put downward pressure on dispensing requirements. Don't even need a pulse (as is parroted here ad nauseum) to "dispense" online. Your electronic counterpart does it for you.

[Johns]

And the web continues to put downward pressure on dispensing requirements. Don't even need a pulse (as is parroted here ad nauseum) to "dispense" online. Your electronic counterpart does it for you.

And that sums up why I want to get as much education as I can.

Degrees? Definitely pie in the sky for many. Forget the degrees for now. I'm all for advancing the profession, but talking about degrees to some, is like talking to a boy with a butterfly net about catching a marlin. I'm not so concerned with degrees as I am about changing the mindset of how we approach the profession, and I think we should be educating ourselves, constantly, so that we are not confused with our electronic counterparts.

[wmcdonald]

And again, Green......what does that have to do with this discussion? The discussion centers around the question, "is this a trade or a profession?" My response is clear, it is neither but should take professional shape. Either one of those requires at least some formal structure. Your comment doe not answer the question at all and goes off in some direction that centers around the use, or lack thereof of technical information, which you claim is not needed, because we forget it anyway. I continue to get the same exact message from you, that we do not need to learn much of anything to do what we do.

You do al least understand that there is some reserve of knowledge there that can be refreshed, and at least you may be able to accomplish that.......if it is ever needed.

I now quote wmcdonald, his words not mine. "What you said in your post is that it takes so little to do what we do we should never learn it in the first place, so why bother?"

wmcdonald if you were any farther off base you would fall off the earth. I'm sorry if that is what you got out of my post. If I felt the way you were saying then I surly would not of spent all that time and money in education then turn around and spend as much time in this field as I have.

I will try one more time. I have yet to ever come across anyone who uses every aspect and every mathematical calculation of opticianry every day. Who out there calculates a slab every day you are at the office? Its just a fact that some are better at sales some at lab work some at trouble shooting some at business. Then there are those that are not good a much else but being a great public relations person.

Show me someone that thinks they are good at all of it all the time and I will show you someone who is full of them selfs.

All the education and prepration is great. To learn all that you can is awesome. That way you then can put it all on the shelf in reserve so that maybe someday you may need it and can call it back up on the spur of the moment. But for most of us we have to "refresh" the issue before we are 100% sure of what we are dealing with.[/QUOTE]

[Uilleann]

...I think we should be educating ourselves, constantly, so that we are not confused with our electronic counterparts.

Please forgive my cynicism here - but how, precisely, will the public as a whole be motivated as a whole to change their purchasing habits at this point because a [currently] non-existent nation wide educational standard might be implemented? Will we "force" them to pay higher prices because we are somehow supposed to be "smarter" than the computer screen in front of them?

Or does it come back to the simple trade aspect, in that their computer can't tighten a screw or replace their cheesed up nose pad? Thanks for the dialogue Johns - appreciate it.

[wmcdonald]

This continued argument about the 1% opticians and their "high standards" is like throwing a peanut in the ocean and expecting a tsunami.

Ask yourselves - why are there so few of us as an industry/trade/profession who have invested thousands into advanced educations to fill ourselves full of theory and formula's we almost never use on a daily basis? Why are doctors and dispensaries across the nation looking for the least expensive employees they can find, and then trying to "mold" them to fit their image of what they feel they want/need (ie: the dreaded and oft maligned 'frame stylist' etc)? Why are the internet companies booming (according to old Chris here anyway) without a care for the silly laws/regulations/restrictions in place to "protect the public" in the few licensed states left?

The train has left the station - there is no going back to the way things were, or some pie in the sky dream of magical optician degrees popping up nationwide to churn out perfected optical lens design engineers. The optical consuming public has spoken - and doesn't demand or want to pay for any more than they already do by and large.

Stop. Think.

If some vague educational requirement were really in the public's best interest, or more restrictions were needed, you would see states actively pushing for the same nationwide. Reality shows a very different path however. When was the last state licensed...the 70's? There's hardly a rush to the front of the que to increase or standardize requirements. And the web continues to put downward pressure on dispensing requirements. Don't even need a pulse (as is parroted here ad nauseum) to "dispense" online. Your electronic counterpart does it for you.

States do not push anything. People push agendas, and it is up to us to start that ball rolling. Unfortunately to many do not have the ability to see the big picture of what we may become, much like those in Optometry did 100 years ago.

[Barry Santini]

Opticianry is neither clearly trade nor profession. It is a skilled craft when at the highest standards.

B

[Uilleann]

States do not push anything. People push agendas, and it is up to us to start that ball rolling. Unfortunately to many do not have the ability to see the big picture of what we may become, much like those in Optometry did 100 years ago.

So if I'm reading you right, you're clinging to an outdated/outmoded dream of 100 years ago? ALL of the O's have changed dramatically in that time, and the internet may well have affected opticianry and dispensing the more than any other. Still can't get that comprehensive eye exam online (yet)...nor does the scalpel with USB attachment exist to do your own cat Sx at home...yet.

The dispensing of eyewear in the US has become commoditized. As I see things, that will never change. And while training in design and proper use of said commodity is helpful to know, reality is proving that the dispenser as a middle man is no longer required in more and more cases, as the pt is readily able to achieve 20/happy on their own. How do you plan to train, persuade or force the consumer to stop what they're already doing and change to an older modality of consumerism now?

[Johns]

Please forgive my cynicism here - but how, precisely, will the public as a whole be motivated as a whole to change their purchasing habits at this point because a [currently] non-existent nation wide educational standard might be implemented? Will we "force" them to pay higher prices because we are somehow supposed to be "smarter" than the computer screen in front of them?

Or does it come back to the simple trade aspect, in that their computer can't tighten a screw or replace their cheesed up nose pad? Thanks for the dialogue Johns - appreciate it.

I can appreciate your cynicism, as I am living in the same world, in the same business, dealing with the same issues.

Of course we can't force consumers to pay higher prices. That's the beauty of it. An educated optician never has to defend themselves against a computer screen, nor against the doctor's wife down the street (who IS able to replace a nose pad). Their knowledge and skill set will shine above the rest, and will be a magnet to those who appreciate what they have to offer.

I do not serve the public as a whole, nor do I wish to change the nation's purchasing habits. I have very specific markets that I target, and leave the rest to the others. Some of my offices serve a clientele that aren't even spending their own money, but the education and expertise of my opticians saves me money on a daily basis. Other locations sell mostly high end items, but they don't come to that office because of the papers hanging on the wall, but rather for the expertise and guidance we have to offer.

[Barry Santini]

The faster the public embraces online eyewear, the faster we'll be able to start to broadly collect service fees without being the ice breaker.

B

[wmcdonald]

So if I'm reading you right, you're clinging to an outdated/outmoded dream of 100 years ago? ALL of the O's have changed dramatically in that time, and the internet may well have affected opticianry and dispensing the more than any other. Still can't get that comprehensive eye exam online (yet)...nor does the scalpel with USB attachment exist to do your own cat Sx at home...yet.

The dispensing of eyewear in the US has become commoditized. As I see things, that will never change. And while training in design and proper use of said commodity is helpful to know, reality is proving that the dispenser as a middle man is no longer required in more and more cases, as the pt is readily able to achieve 20/happy on their own. How do you plan to train, persuade or force the consumer to stop what they're already doing and change to an older modality of consumerism now?

My dream is to improve this field through education and training, broadening the scope of what it is we do to make us more viable. Optometry took the same path 100 years ago. Nursing, more recently, as did every other allied health related field.....except us, due to apathy and the type of cynacism I see in your posts. Hey, I don't blame you. I completely understand, and maybe I am wrong. But at least I have that dream, and can envision something positive.

[CCGREEN]

But the problem is most Opticians do not understand optics at all. It is measure a PD, take a Seg Height, and take the money. Ask the majority of Opticians to find the approximate power of a lens in a given meridian and they cannot. My colleague, Roy Ferguson has more specific data on things Opticians cannot do on state board licensing exams and it is stunning. The problem with this field is the lack of education and training, and a lack of consistent definition of what an Optician is across the country. It is about more than making pretty glasses.......at least in my mind........but I suspect in most, that is about it. The field should have taken professional shape, in my opinion, but the way it is now, it is not even a standardized trade across the country. It is just a hidge-podge of people grouped together by a similar title. It is a shame we have degraded this much. Most who enter the field are like the lady in Georgia above who found a job. No real preparation needed, it seems, and that is the mistake we have made. Until folks have to pay some dues to enter this field, and we make it worth their while to do so, we will continue to spiral downward as a field.

wmcdonald. I beleive that everything I made comment about in my post was in direct response to this which is your very first and origional post. Im sorry you cannot see the connection.

I do beleive we both have the same perception about the profession/carrear/field/occupation whatever you want to call it. Education is needed and without a doubt practical is needed to make it the best well rounded education possiable.
Some are just more laid back with and about their knowledge and then there are those that feel a need to be loud and boustrious about their wisdom. It does not matter. They both feel that wisdom is best for the occupation of choice.

Im through arguing with you about something we both seem to be in agreement on for the most part. So as a wiser person here I chose to move forward from here.

[Wes]

Machol's First Law of Online Entropy certainly seems to be at play in this thread.

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...-they-co-exist

[Johns]

Machol's First Law of Online Entropy certainly seems to be at play in this thread.

http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...-they-co-exist

I have to disagree in this case. I think all we have here, for the most part, is a passionate discussion about a key issue in our field.

Don't worry....really; we're all going out for a beer after this.

[tx11]

I have to disagree in this case. I think all we have here, for the most part, is a passionate discussion about a key issue in our field.

Don't worry....really; we're all going out for a beer after this.

In the words of the great HANK HILL...."yep". If you agree we are all still friends...feel free to "yep" in too

[Johns]

Plus, there are at least 7 or 8 people "involved", so it's almost like one of those old fashioned discussions!
(At least we've got more of our members involved)

[MakeOptics]

The faster the public embraces online eyewear, the faster we'll be able to start to broadly collect service fees without being the ice breaker.

B

Burn the bridge down and they have to take the ferry. That's been my current philosophy for years. Uileean is part of the reason why I had that change of thought. He is struggling against a tide of opticians whom "WANT" it one way, while he screams this is the "WAY IT IS".

[CCGREEN]

In the words of the great HANK HILL...."yep". If you agree we are all still friends...feel free to "yep" in too

Consider me "yep"ing in. The next round is on me. Bottoms up my friends.

[Barry Santini]

So if I'm reading you right, you're clinging to an outdated/outmoded dream of 100 years ago? ALL of the O's have changed dramatically in that time, and the internet may well have affected opticianry and dispensing the more than any other. Still can't get that comprehensive eye exam online (yet)...nor does the scalpel with USB attachment exist to do your own cat Sx at home...yet.

The dispensing of eyewear in the US has become commoditized. As I see things, that will never change. And while training in design and proper use of said commodity is helpful to know, reality is proving that the dispenser as a middle man is no longer required in more and more cases, as the pt is readily able to achieve 20/happy on their own. How do you plan to train, persuade or force the consumer to stop what they're already doing and change to an older modality of consumerism now?

As adlens/adjustable eyewear evolves, this will be truer than ever...

B