Lab comitments

[jmainwar]

So the plot thickens, I just got off the phone with my Hoya rep trying to get our account reactivated due to inactivity. I was then hit with a $1500-$2000 a month commitment where I had none before. I can understand if I was receiving a special discount, but the reason I stopped using them was our flow never allowed us to receive anything other than the lowest tier discount to begin with. With our buying group I now have a chance at levels that allow the numbers to work, but the commitment doesn't sit well with me and I'm not willing to do away with our current diversification of labs. Has anyone else run into this?

[Slim]

id move on.... IMHO

[jmainwar]

It would be an easy decision if I wasn't receiving an incredible price on private label Hoya product.

[CME4SPECS]

You should be able to get that private label through your buying group with no committment

[Uilleann]

Suppose it depends on your doctor. I don't know of many opticians who feel buying groups are in any way a good thing (indeed many won't even talk to opticians alone). Ask them to simply compete on cost, and quality. If they can, they get your business. If they can't move along to the next lab who will. If it's a buck or two here and there, but a given lab offers you superior service, that's where my money would go.

ANYtime a lab tries to dictate to us how to run our shop, or demands X volume of work, or Y number of a certain type of job to get their best pricing, that should be a big red flag. It tends to be a pretty big tell that their quality, speed or pricing isn't enough for them to survive well enough without demanding more of their clients. You should take issue with that I would think...

[Slim]

+ 1 bajillion!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[mervinek]

ANYtime a lab tries to dictate to us how to run our shop, or demands X volume of work, or Y number of a certain type of job to get their best pricing, that should be a big red flag. It tends to be a pretty big tell that their quality, speed or pricing isn't enough for them to survive well enough without demanding more of their clients. You should take issue with that I would think...

+ 1

[jmainwar]

Agreed, I have the buying group looking into this. I'm just surprised that from such a large company to be given these demands.

[Stan Tabor]

Agreed, I have the buying group looking into this. I'm just surprised that from such a large company to be given these demands.

Let me play devil's advocate. There is nothing surprising here. Hoya got to be Hoya by being Hoya. One way labs get big is buy getting all your business. This creates synergy and if you have the right partner, it saves you both money. You want to unbundle and play the field, that's fine but you may pay more. Its business. Nothing personal. Just business. Despite the lab consolidation, there are still plenty of choices for those wanting to play the field.

[mervinek]

Its business. Nothing personal. Just business.

Isn't that from You've got mail?

[Barry Santini]

I like Zeiss, Nikon, Digi, Seiko, Hoya and Shamir ( MJ, Oakley, etc).

whatever the price is, I pay it. If I slide to a higher price structure, so be it.

I want what I want, for me and the eyewear I make.

Period.

B

[MikeAurelius]

There are plenty of independent labs out there. Shouldn't take more than 4-5 phone calls to find what you need. Start with Laramy-K in Indianola, IA.

[HindSight2020]

Let me play devil's advocate. There is nothing surprising here. Hoya got to be Hoya by being Hoya. One way labs get big is buy getting all your business. This creates synergy and if you have the right partner, it saves you both money. You want to unbundle and play the field, that's fine but you may pay more. Its business. Nothing personal. Just business. Despite the lab consolidation, there are still plenty of choices for those wanting to play the field.

+1

Well said, I couldn't agree more.

[braheem24]

Is there something Special about Hoya? Find a lens that works and sell it, over-thinking costs money.

[MikeAurelius]

And when you need specials, go to EPIC in Waite Park, Mn.

[Jason H]

Mike is right - go indie. I won't show my hand by reccomending one over the other but that's what the independants are for.

[Uilleann]

Let me play devil's advocate. There is nothing surprising here. Hoya got to be Hoya by being Hoya. One way labs get big is buy getting all your business. This creates synergy and if you have the right partner, it saves you both money. You want to unbundle and play the field, that's fine but you may pay more. Its business. Nothing personal. Just business. Despite the lab consolidation, there are still plenty of choices for those wanting to play the field.

I don't agree with this 100%. There are valid reasons ALL the big players got to be where they are sure. But forcing any dispensary to use only lab X to me shows a painfully obvious fear of competition, and perhaps a lack of quality, ingenuity, consistency and/or willingness to innovate for your business. The fear of loosing out on imaginary profit is precisely what the buying groups and insurance companies depend upon (really, they operate with similar mindsets) - and so they use tactics like this all too often to force you into imaginary corners you have no need to be pushed into.

There should be one thing, and one thing only that drives an intelligent lab decision - how accommodating are they to all of your particular needs? That will include everything from cost, to quality, product palate, turn time, to problem resolution/customer service etc. If they can't consistently perform at a top level...why exactly are you giving them your money again? Let their work speak for itself. Let their rep show you (not tell you) how they can personally benefit your practice. And of course, let their willingness to offer you their absolute best price - period - regardless of volume or this or that cheapo house lens or A/R used, help you to drive a smart decision home.

[HindSight2020]

I don't agree with this 100%. There are valid reasons ALL the big players got to be where they are sure. But forcing any dispensary to use only lab X to me shows a painfully obvious fear of competition, and perhaps a lack of quality, ingenuity, consistency and/or willingness to innovate for your business. The fear of loosing out on imaginary profit is precisely what the buying groups and insurance companies depend upon (really, they operate with similar mindsets) - and so they use tactics like this all too often to force you into imaginary corners you have no need to be pushed into.

There should be one thing, and one thing only that drives an intelligent lab decision - how accommodating are they to all of your particular needs? That will include everything from cost, to quality, product palate, turn time, to problem resolution/customer service etc. If they can't consistently perform at a top level...why exactly are you giving them your money again? Let their work speak for itself. Let their rep show you (not tell you) how they can personally benefit your practice. And of course, let their willingness to offer you their absolute best price - period - regardless of volume or this or that cheapo house lens or A/R used, help you to drive a smart decision home.

There is no hidden agenda from the larger companies. Them, like anybody else simply want a partial commitment, not 100% - lion's share perhaps.

Question to you - why should a lab give you their best price if you simply just dabble? If you were that big committed customer pooling more than $10K per month with them, how would you feel to know that the 'dabbler' spending 500 bucks gets the same deal? You wouldn't like it I'm sure.

[Stan Tabor]

Isn't that from You've got mail?

I was thinking Michael Corleone when I wrote it. They would take my man card if I quoted "You've Got Mail".

[Uilleann]

There is no hidden agenda from the larger companies. Them, like anybody else simply want a partial commitment, not 100% - lion's share perhaps.

Question to you - why should a lab give you their best price if you simply just dabble? If you were that big committed customer pooling more than $10K per month with them, how would you feel to know that the 'dabbler' spending 500 bucks gets the same deal? You wouldn't like it I'm sure.

The lab would simply be both speculating and profiling without any real data. There are going to be offices that send in 100 jobs a day...and others that send in 1. Who is the lab to say who the "dabbler" might be in actuality? Volume of jobs is not a valid measure of a dispensers commitment to their lab - you know that. To imply otherwise is to simply resort to the strong arm fear based scare tactics that have worked so well with the big buying groups and all the insurance companies for decades now. Guess who's laughing all the way to the bank...usually not the dispenser.

The math is very simple - if you want my work - you earn it. I have extremely high expectations of the standard of work I dispense, and my lab will keep up. Or they will not be my lab anymore. Further, if two labs are able to produce the same quality, product offering, speed and back end support - then the simple answer is to go with the cheaper lab. But to blindly throw all/most/X percentage of my work to a given door just because they're sitting on me to do so - sorry. The game isn't played that way. They still work for me, just as I do for my patients.

[jmainwar]

There is no hidden agenda from the larger companies. Them, like anybody else simply want a partial commitment, not 100% - lion's share perhaps.

Question to you - why should a lab give you their best price if you simply just dabble? If you were that big committed customer pooling more than $10K per month with them, how would you feel to know that the 'dabbler' spending 500 bucks gets the same deal? You wouldn't like it I'm sure.

I agree, I shouldn't expect a best price from the vendor if I am only going to be ordering a small amount of product. The expectation of needing a commitment with no discount given is what irks me, I'm have no problem signing up for something when the benefit is mutual. I have a handful of accounts that I only order from when I need their product and I pay full price without thinking about it.

ETA: I am now able to get an account with no commitment on the basis of our buying group. I also received a f/u call that this thread attracted a little attention and while I believe my rep doesn't have much control over what corporate dictates I would expect a stellar discount for a given commitment as a shop without a buying group.

[LENNY]

I agree, I shouldn't expect a best price from the vendor if I am only going to be ordering a small amount of product. The expectation of needing a commitment with no discount given is what irks me, I'm have no problem signing up for something when the benefit is mutual. I have a handful of accounts that I only order from when I need their product and I pay full price without thinking about it.

ETA: I am now able to get an account with no commitment on the basis of our buying group. I also received a f/u call that this thread attracted a little attention and while I believe my rep doesn't have much control over what corporate dictates I would expect a stellar discount for a given commitment as a shop without a buying group.

I think there is no problem with commitment! BTW how is the commitment going to be enforced?
Also please dont forget that when you bill thru buying group they get dicount that otherwise could be yours and that can be anywhere from 3-6%...

[Jacqui]

And when you need specials, go to EPIC in Waite Park, Mn.

Epic is now 'E"

[Jubilee]

When I was working on the wholesale end of things, I wanted to do things differently. Instead of banking on negotiating discounts based upon volume/loyalty... or negotiating prowess, try to price things in a manner that was more streamlined and mostly net. My thought was that if you gave good product, with great turn time, at a decent simplified price.. people would go for it. No need to reference 15 places in the price list to add it all together.. Bam! One place to look up the one price.

When I managed offices, I would love that type of pricing. Give me the bottom line, but I guess my peers were right to call me crazy for thinking that since.. it did not work so well for JC Penny or Saturn. Everyone seems to want to have a "deal!" Who cares if I have to pay someone 4% to save an extra 2-3% over what I can negotiate on my own or that the 20% off list is still more than another lab? I still got a deal!

Buying groups will get you extra discount, but they make money because they charge you a fee. Be that through "convenience" fees, monthly premiums (which might include other extras, like CEs) or by discounting your order less. (Lab gives Buying Group a 30% discount, Buying Group gives you 25% off of list.. meaning they net the extra 5%) Of course Labs like Buying Groups because it is guaranteed funds compared to some accounts..

In some ways, that might be why some labs will only want to deal with smaller accounts, or "unknowns" through a buying group. Much the same way that many require at least half down before ordering. Wanting some guarantee you won't lose money on a deal.

[HindSight2020]

Volume of jobs is not a valid measure of a dispensers commitment to their lab.

Ofcourse it is. Commitment is measured on three things - volume - types of job - and quality. For the record, a dabbler is somebody that will throw you the odd bone, but only when they need to because their main lab of choice is unable to provide or when you prefer to cherry pick. This is not speculation my friend and is real data.