Essilor now majority shareholder of Eyebuydirect.com

[Johns]

I understand that Luzerne is a great family owned independent lab.
My original question was/is what this independent lab can better support the independent ECP's with better products, better coatings, better service, and better pricing, as stated before....
I understand one stop shop, but dont want to overpay for the product just because of that.
I currently use 3-4 labs and have no problem.
Luzerne is a very good quality lab, but I doubt it can or want to compete with lets Say FEA or Essilor owned labs. Especially on the larger accounts.
I understand you want to promote your lab, but....

Lenny, if an Essilor lab hasn't found you, find one and mention the prices you are paying, and you KNOW they will cut them by more than half. If nothing else, just to hurt the independent. You and I have had the conversation about how much cash they can stuff into their bags when they come calling, and you know that I haven't taken it. That doesn't mean that it's not out there.

I was offered VLX Comfort w/Avance for less than I was paying for Images. That, from an independent lab that "partnered" with E about 5 years ago. Yes, yes, and yes...we ALL know that they can and do give MUCH better pricing that independents can.

Having said that, I am still with an independent lab. It is not for the price, and they wouldn't insult my intelligence by pretending it is. I get outstanding service, much faster turnaround, and the best quality I've ever had. I tried the E route once, and it was like comparing Nordstroms to Walmart.

[Judy Canty]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. We wail and gnash our teeth over patients who "price-shop", choosing low price over quality, yet we do exactly the same thing time after time with lens and frame prices. Seems a little schizophrenic sometimes.

[Uilleann]

We got cold called by a Luzerne rep last year. The prices they offered were notably higher than ELoA, and E partner labs, and four other "independent" labs we use or have used in the recent past. It's getting harder and harder to differentiate one lab from another despite claims of we do this better or that better. In the end, the dispenser/doctor has to be able to translate the labs promises into patient satisfaction both as it relates to product, as well as to cost. Essilor isn't wasting any time wondering if they should or can compete in an online arena. Fair play to them. Can a small "independent" lab like Luzerne or anyone else compete on cost alone? Can any even come close? If a lab can't compete on price, can they offer a product so revolutionary, so substantially better that a patient will be convinced without hesitation to purchase that product from their ECP? We all add our own value to the process of course, bringing our years of experience, skill and training to bear as we craft what we hope is the best pair of eyewear the patient has ever known. But for both the end consumer, as well as the provider - cost in an increasing gauntlet we have to navigate.

Personally, I haven't seen any wholesale labs lowering their fees...

Thoughts??

[Johns]

Personally, I haven't seen any wholesale labs lowering their fees...

Thoughts??

Nope...and I haven't lowered mine either.

[LENNY]

Most of my patients are very price driven! We do lots of insurance work.
I am not paying double for FT28 to be made in one day with 100% consistency and quality! Or let's put it the other way my patients are not paying, nor insurances!
I never met a Luzerne rep before, but have seen your price list.
I am sure you are proud of what you do!
In our woods Trisupreme, 21 century, Optogenics and a few others were also proud of what they did, and....

[LENNY]

I also was always taught that out of 3 variables you can only have 2 from the lab!
Those 3 are Service, Quality, Price!

Pick any 2! Unless someone can find an outfit with all 3, but I did not find one in my 22 years of experience....

[Judy Canty]

Lenny, I've only got 40 years of experience. Use the lab that makes you happy, while you have the choice to do so.

[Johns]

I also was always taught that out of 3 variables you can only have 2 from the lab!
Those 3 are Service, Quality, Price!

Pick any 2! Unless someone can find an outfit with all 3, but I did not find one in my 22 years of experience....

I agree!

(Also, the lab we use actually gives us a better price than anyone (even E) offered) I never play the "you first" game. That is, I won't give a vendor a price, and then see if they can beat it. I tell them to give me the absolutely best price they can. They have one chance. I hate it when a competitor comes in after the fact and says they can beat a price by XX amount, after the original vendor has, in good faith done their best.

[LENNY]

So what do you do when you offered a better deal!???

[anthonyf1509]

Lenny,
I would like to say that we're on both sides. We take a lot of insurance and have some price driven consumers, so it's important to have lower COGs. We have one lab for that. That's about 20% of our orders.
The other 80% we have been using Luzerne. We only switched on the condition that we got the pricing we felt was fair. Our rep did the work and we were told either yes, or we cannot go that low, but we'll match the price on any product you get for less. (if it's something we use a lot. i.e. surmount, supercede)
So independents can and will work with you (volume probably helps more than anything else)
We'd love to do the other 20% with Luzerne but yes, their FTs and SV ate considerably higher and they wouldn't come down for us. No hard feelings, we just give someone else the work.
Im not sure why it's a big deal to have 2 main suppliers. That allows us all 3. Quality and turnaround at one and price at another. While not sacrificing in the other areas that much.

[Johns]

So what do you do when you offered a better deal!???

"Deal" as in better price? There is always a better "deal", but if that's what this was about, I'd be overnighting lenses from overseas. If you want the best prices, that's the way to go. But this isn't only about price...

[David@LUXE]

Well said Judy. In defense of the independent lab, we only provide what the wholesale market demands. Just as Luxottica is a powerful force that ultimately threatens the independent ECP, Essilor can be viewed in the same light from the labs perspective. Until the Chanels, Gucci's and Ray Bans are emptied off the displays of every ECP you continue to feed the beast. We all know who owns Lenscrafters. We know that Essilor bought into Satisloh years ago. Who is providing the Micro VFT lab systems for Lenscrafters? Satisloh. Free-form digital lenses with AR in an hour! Essilor has their hands in Shamir also. I have been with an independent lab for years and have seen the tactics firsthand. Essilor comes in and buys the independent lab solely for its customer list. My hat goes off to Luzerne and all the independent labs because I think its safe to say that they have been offered a hefty price for their lab at some time or another and they have maintained true to independence. It starts at the sale. If ones customers are so naïve to believe that Crizal is actually a lens and not a coating than someone has failed to educate them. Its up to the ECP to stop the demand and we will happily offer a house brand but then again we are all afraid of change.....and all the while this industry is changing so fast we truly do not see what is happening. Beware of a Luxottica/Essilor union in the next decade.

[LENNY]

Beware of a Luxottica/Essilor union in the next decade.

This might create a small problem!

[LENNY]

Lenny,
I would like to say that we're on both sides. We take a lot of insurance and have some price driven consumers, so it's important to have lower COGs. We have one lab for that. That's about 20% of our orders.
The other 80% we have been using Luzerne. We only switched on the condition that we got the pricing we felt was fair. Our rep did the work and we were told either yes, or we cannot go that low, but we'll match the price on any product you get for less. (if it's something we use a lot. i.e. surmount, supercede)
So independents can and will work with you (volume probably helps more than anything else)
We'd love to do the other 20% with Luzerne but yes, their FTs and SV ate considerably higher and they wouldn't come down for us. No hard feelings, we just give someone else the work.
Im not sure why it's a big deal to have 2 main suppliers. That allows us all 3. Quality and turnaround at one and price at another. While not sacrificing in the other areas that much.

We currently use 3 labs for our SF products and 3 stock houses. You are right the volume is the game!
Also as Johns mentioned E can throw a ton of $$$ and spiffs but some independent lab claim that can better support the independent ECP's with better products, better coatings, better service, and better pricing This is hard for me to understand in our competitive word of third party, Zenni and Frames direct.
I understand if you are a high end store and charge $179 for FSV Cr39 lenses in Manhattan, you dont care what you pay for them! But when you get $26 for EFL from DC37 less billing company fees you do care about the price of the lenses.....

[anthonyf1509]

I see how that can be a problem, Lenny. Yikes! It is annoying also, to have to have that many suppliers but gotta do what you gotta do. With regards to managing managed care, that's another beast altogether.

[LENNY]

It's not really annoying as long as you organized and stuff makes sense to you!
Online ordering and job checking helps a lot!

[Lee H]

We got cold called by a Luzerne rep last year. The prices they offered were notably higher than ELoA, and E partner labs, and four other "independent" labs we use or have used in the recent past. It's getting harder and harder to differentiate one lab from another despite claims of we do this better or that better. In the end, the dispenser/doctor has to be able to translate the labs promises into patient satisfaction both as it relates to product, as well as to cost. Essilor isn't wasting any time wondering if they should or can compete in an online arena. Fair play to them. Can a small "independent" lab like Luzerne or anyone else compete on cost alone? Can any even come close? If a lab can't compete on price, can they offer a product so revolutionary, so substantially better that a patient will be convinced without hesitation to purchase that product from their ECP? We all add our own value to the process of course, bringing our years of experience, skill and training to bear as we craft what we hope is the best pair of eyewear the patient has ever known. But for both the end consumer, as well as the provider - cost in an increasing gauntlet we have to navigate.

Personally, I haven't seen any wholesale labs lowering their fees...

Thoughts??

I worked for ELOA from it's inception and have been with Luzerne for 9 years. I have never seen an ELOA price list that was "notably" less than what Luzerne offers and I have many ELOA price lists on file. I am not doubting you at all.....just saying that I haven't seen it in the Carolina's. I have seen and heard of checks being given (possibly several years of spiffs being paid up front), 0 percent interest loans, spiff programs, super spiff programs, edgers given away, the buying of ecp's lab equipment, the giving away of Visio Office machines, a free months worth of lab work, retirement account matching, monies paid for expansion or remodeling, private label lenses for certain groups, and umpteen various price lists. All of those offers to pick up market share are perfectly okay with me.....business is business. I believe businesses must do what they need to do to survive and/or grow. Even getting into selling direct to the consumer thru online sites like eyebuydirect.com or framesdirect.com do not concern me in the least. Even the support Essilor gives to the Walmart or Lenscrafters I think is fine. Corporations must do what they must do in order to grow market share and keep stockholders happy. What I have seen in the Carolina's is that many ECP's also appreciate being educated about the other terrific lens/coating technologies available. Many that previously used one manufacturer's brand exclusively are finding out that there are some excellent alternatives available. I do not believe any one company has a lock on technology. I find it rewarding to be able to share those alternatives. I also find it rewarding to have the work processed here in the states without having to outsource across the border to lower labor costs. Essilor has some good products and very good marketing and I commend them. I still sell a lot of their products and am happy to do so. I for one am thankful that we at Luzerne have other options for those that want to would like to explore other technologies.

Can a "small independent lab like Luzerne" compete? You darn skippy we can. We actually have more processing capability in our "small" lab than most any of the big corporate labs. Can we offer all of the spiffs, checks, and deals that ELOA does? I have no idea if we can or not. I know we don't. We are in the business of processing lenses and we do it well and continue to have very good growth. Have we been able to save many former big corporate lab customers some money and also offer them many different choices they were not getting? BIG TIME! I am thankful to those ECP's that allow us to process their work....to you....I want to say a sincere "thank you". To the Doughtery family (Jack, Lorraine, Neil, and John) that own and operate Luzerne, I want to publicly thank you for the opportunity.

For those that choose to use other labs.....I say cheers.....I know there are many good labs out there offering good quality/service and programs.

Peace & Love

[Judy Canty]

I worked for ELOA from it's inception and have been with Luzerne for 9 years. I have never seen an ELOA price list that was "notably" less than what Luzerne offers and I have many ELOA price lists on file. I am not doubting you at all.....just saying that I haven't seen it in the Carolina's. I have seen and heard of checks being given (possibly several years of spiffs being paid up front), 0 percent interest loans, spiff programs, super spiff programs, edgers given away, the buying of ecp's lab equipment, the giving away of Visio Office machines, a free months worth of lab work, retirement account matching, monies paid for expansion or remodeling, private label lenses for certain groups, and umpteen various price lists. All of those offers to pick up market share are perfectly okay with me.....business is business. I believe businesses must do what they need to do to survive and/or grow. Even getting into selling direct to the consumer thru online sites like eyebuydirect.com or framesdirect.com do not concern me in the least. Even the support Essilor gives to the Walmart or Lenscrafters I think is fine. Corporations must do what they must do in order to grow market share and keep stockholders happy. What I have seen in the Carolina's is that many ECP's also appreciate being educated about the other terrific lens/coating technologies available. Many that previously used one manufacturer's brand exclusively are finding out that there are some excellent alternatives available. I do not believe any one company has a lock on technology. I find it rewarding to be able to share those alternatives. I also find it rewarding to have the work processed here in the states without having to outsource across the border to lower labor costs. Essilor has some good products and very good marketing and I commend them. I still sell a lot of their products and am happy to do so. I for one am thankful that we at Luzerne have other options for those that want to would like to explore other technologies.

Can a "small independent lab like Luzerne" compete? You darn skippy we can. We actually have more processing capability in our "small" lab than most any of the big corporate labs. Can we offer all of the spiffs, checks, and deals that ELOA does? I have no idea if we can or not. I know we don't. We are in the business of processing lenses and we do it well and continue to have very good growth. Have we been able to save many former big corporate lab customers some money and also offer them many different choices they were not getting? BIG TIME! I am thankful to those ECP's that allow us to process their work....to you....I want to say a sincere "thank you". To the Doughtery family (Jack, Lorraine, Neil, and John) that own and operate Luzerne, I want to publicly thank you for the opportunity.

For those that choose to use other labs.....I say cheers.....I know there are many good labs out there offering good quality/service and programs.

Peace & Love

+1

[Chris Ryser]

+ 1

[Johns]

Can a "small independent lab like Luzerne" compete? You darn skippy we can.

Even getting into selling direct to the consumer thru online sites like eyebuydirect.com or framesdirect.com do not concern me in the least.

[Plausible]

C'mon Johns, sure seems like a stretch statement and similar to the one that Luzerne will never sell. Never is a long time but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Johns]

C'mon Johns, sure seems like a stretch statement and similar to the one that Luzerne will never sell. Never is a long time but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Those were not my quotes. I made no statements...

[Pogu]

I've been having the damnedest time getting lenses from either ELOA or independents that aren't either coated is flaws, or won't cut out. I talk to the folks at the lab, they're all smiles on the phone and basically tell me my standards are too high. WTF? All I want is a lens that is worth the money they charge for it! If I buy a camera the lenses better damn well be perfect and the same goes for eye-wear! I've only been in 6 years now but, I swear there is a red tide coming in from the wholesalers. I, for one, plan on finding a way above it.

[RT]

I've been having the damnedest time getting lenses from either ELOA or independents that aren't either coated is flaws, or won't cut out

If lenses consistently won't cut out, it sounds like they were ordered incorrectly.

[Barry Santini]

I've been having the damnedest time getting lenses from either ELOA or independents that aren't either coated is flaws, or won't cut out. I talk to the folks at the lab, they're all smiles on the phone and basically tell me my standards are too high. WTF? All I want is a lens that is worth the money they charge for it! If I buy a camera the lenses better damn well be perfect and the same goes for eye-wear! I've only been in 6 years now but, I swear there is a red tide coming in from the wholesalers. I, for one, plan on finding a way above it.

Yes. True. I've been complaining for YEARS to Omega that they unintentionally fixture their lenses in the worst possible orientation when coating them...smack dab at the 9 or 3 o'clock position for the OD and OS, respectively. Accounts can talk, but labs also have to be willing to listen and catalogue our constructive criticisms. E labs are particularly bad in this way (not listening).

B