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Thread: Is "education" really the answer employers are looking for?

  1. #151
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    The title stated rather clearly:
    Number Of PhD Recipients Using Food Stamps Surged During Recession

    Which is an interesting observation of the trending value of the PhD in the current economic situation. You're welcome to spin it anyway you see fit of course.

  2. #152
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    It also states that the total increased by 43%. What it DOES NOT discuss is if the % of PhD's and Master's increased by an equal amount, or more or less. That is a relevant omission, and if the writer has any understanding of statistics, she would have used the numbers if the increase were proportional or greater to further support her position. Therefore, since she omitted that data, I must assume that the increase in graduate degree holders was a far smaller percentage increase as compared to the general population. The writer, knowing that most people have no understanding of numbers, was able to sensationalize a non-story. Spin that.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  3. #153
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Your assumptions are fascinating. I'd go to the source itself, and ask her yourself what she thinks about your posit.

  4. #154
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    Wes:

    You haven't said what percent of the population actually has a Phd. or a Masters. It could be that thier percent on the public dole is proportionate to thier frequency in the general population. And then if you count those not on food stamps but living on some other government teat (like grants, etc.) the educated on the dole might be higher than the general population.

    Not to mention that higher percentage of those with degrees had wealthy upbringings and could be off food stamps because they are able to still live off mommie and daddy.

    Chip

    There are liiars, damn liars and statusticians.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    no one has defined or branded what an optician is and what courses are necesary for an optician to be called an optician...

    the system ya'll got now is exactly what ya'll gonna wind up with at the end of the day if you don't define and brand first
    I don't think many in the business would disagree with you.

    Unfortunately, it would be near impossible to get this accomplished without the support of the chains. It would actually hurt their bottom line to have nothing but qualified, skilled opticians. There is no point when they can bring somebody off the street for $8-9 an hour to style somebody in a frame that looks good on them (regardless of whether or not the fit is good or the measurements or accurate).

    If we all truly wanted to effect change then we would spend our time educating the public instead of arguing about what an optician is or isn't. Those running their own shops would (maybe do) educate their customers on why they should be in a specific lens instead of just saying "I'm putting you in high index because of your strong prescription". They would take vertex distances and tell the customer to run away from any place that doesn't do the same when dealing with digitally surfaced lenses. They would charge a fair price for adjustments, or at least make damn sure the customer genuinely appreciated the free adjustment, knowing that it takes knowledge to perform accurate adjustments and no other profession would give away services for free (HVAC companies will charge you $50-100 to come do a tuneup on your system. Your doctor charges you even if nothing is wrong with you).

    The people who aren't buying glasses online are the ones who have been educated by an optician somewhere. We can all do that on an individual basis but getting a majority of the industry on board with that would be like herding cats.

  6. #156
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    I didn't write or cite the poorly researched, sensationalized article, and I'm not doing the research for her, or either of you.

    @ Chip: if it's proportional, it's a sensationalized article. If %-wise it's less, it's a very sensationalized article. If %-wise, it's more, she should've used the data to bolster her case. Furthermore, as you seem to constantly be seeking status, I'd call you a statustician. However, we're talking statistics and statisticians.

    It's funny to me that the people railing against education exhibit such a lack of understanding of statistics.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  7. #157
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    If we wanted to effect meaningful change, we should define the optician, increase the skill of the optician, and brand the optician. Any one without the others is meaningless. More to follow.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  8. #158
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    A major problem with opticianry is that most opticians have NO education. Not just in opticianry, but none. The profession is largely run (into the ground) by good ol boys who don't know how to interpret data. These last few posts are a perfect illustration of that. When opticians come along who can interpret data correctly and make information of it, (Johns, Braheem, Harry C, Roy Ferguson-to name a few) they are wildly successful.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  9. #159
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Employers want employees with the right degrees. Here is a sad stat: "In 2009 the U.S. graduated 89,140 students in the visual and performing arts, more than in computer science, math and chemical engineering combined and more than double the number of visual and performing arts graduates in 1985." No wonder these people can't find jobs, visual and performing arts is a hobby, not a job.

    http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/28/the...h+(TechCrunch)

  10. #160
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    I found the following that might help expand this discussion:

    “Relative to the total 44 million Americans who received some sort of federal assistance in 2010, those with graduate degrees make up a miniscule part of the pie. But the irreliance on the system presents a dynamic that contradicts the conventional wisdom.

    Those with more education are more likely to have a job in the first place. According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, just 4.0 percent of college graduates or those with higher degrees are unemployed in April 2012. That number has remained relatively constant since 2011.

    By comparison, 7.6 percent of those with only some college or associate degree education, 7.9 percent of those with only a high school diploma, and 12.5 percent of those with less than a high school diploma were unemployed in April.”

    Roy
    Last edited by Roy R. Ferguson; 05-08-2012 at 07:44 AM. Reason: spacing

  11. #161
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AustinEyewear View Post
    Employers want employees with the right degrees. Here is a sad stat: "In 2009 the U.S. graduated 89,140 students in the visual and performing arts, more than in computer science, math and chemical engineering combined and more than double the number of visual and performing arts graduates in 1985." No wonder these people can't find jobs, visual and performing arts is a hobby, not a job.

    http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/28/the...h+(TechCrunch)
    It seems "visual and performing arts" is the new Basket-weaving. Still, I'll bet you could get an Officer Commission with it.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  12. #162
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    Which is more usefull?
    A benchman that can do excellent work or a college grad with no experience?
    Someone that can layout, edge, an mount or a person with a Phd?
    A person that can sell product or one that discuss the classics?

    Education in business counts only when it is related to the business. All other education while it may be highly beneficial to the person with it, has little no usefullness to the business.

    Just as "instructors" who can give a hour of "instruction" which includes 45 min. of dissertation on the hardships they have experienced isn't giving you thier 60 min. worth.
    Who cares if you are a single mother, or have bad knees, or whatever if it doesn't tell you anything about how to do your job?


    Chip

  13. #163
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip
    Which is more usefull? A benchman that can do excellent work or a college grad with no experience?Someone that can layout, edge, an mount or a person with a Phd?
    I can tell which of the two will be paid more over the course of their lifetime.

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  14. #164
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    College PHd with no experience.

    Benchmen are dead as a isolated skill set. The latest edgers can really do it all and better, at the lab level.

    B

  15. #165
    Optical Curmudgeon EyeManFla's Avatar
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    I ran a store for an OD who considered all opticians "unskilled labor"....
    "Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde"

  16. #166
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    I ran a store for an OD who considered all opticians "unskilled labor"....
    The real issue is the number of opticians who seem content with that title.

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  17. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by chip anderson View Post
    Which is more usefull?
    A benchman that can do excellent work or a college grad with no experience?
    Someone that can layout, edge, an mount or a person with a Phd?
    A person that can sell product or one that discuss the classics?

    Education in business counts only when it is related to the business. All other education while it may be highly beneficial to the person with it, has little no usefullness to he business.


    Chip
    What if the person with the education can do all the things you describe? Education come in many forms, and Opticianry is now more complicated. Modern fabrication has eliminated the need for many of the skills you describe, and the newer lens designs require someone with a higher level of understanding of basic optics than is typically shown here on Optiboard by the majority of those posting. So if they do not understand even basic optics, how can they explain even more complicated products. Often, what folks here do not see are the intangible things that a solid education can provide for those in this field. Usually it is due to the fact they do not have an education themselves, beyond apprenticeship, which teaches the technical skills required to perform a set of interrelated tasks. These folks largely saw no need to achieve an education themselves, so it must be a bad thing! The OP asks if employers want someone with an education? The answer has been loudly provided in multiple posts, but it falls on deaf ears. Fortunately, it really does not matter. Education always gives folks a better opportunity and it stands on its own. For every negative article on the value of education, like the one that started this thread, there are hundreds of others that point out its value. It is proven throughout history to be the great equalizer, and provide level playing fields. Only in Opticianry do those with no education try to hold others back along with themselves.

    And Barry, before you post your negative comments (usually tagged with some veiled support for education) sales can be a part of the process. We have a Canadian here talking about branding the title, when he/she really has not idea what it takes to brand anything.......which is a consistant product across all boundarys, which we do not have. Others, like Chip above, do not to understand that all of the schools require a hands on component, and are simply ignorant of the coursework required in Opticianry schools. All have lab courses, and require outside clinical experiences as well......at least those 24 or so accredited by COA. So please open your minds. Employers do seek those with education. They have proven capable of accompliishing something, no matter the field of study.Think future, folks, and for us to remain relavant, and education is important, and must take place before we can be recognized in all jurisdictions. Folks who enther the field in the future must have some level of education.

    But this entirre thread is somewhat useless, isn't it. It is still a group of folks who see education as a negative thing. It is a shame they see so little value in what the do for a living that anyone can do it. As long as it requires nothing, that is what we will get. You complain about low pay? Opticians make more in most states that school teachers, and require far less. If we can expand our horizons a bit, and it can only be accomplished via education, maybe, just maybe, income will rise concurrently. It has happened in every other field, and only in this one do we continue to wonder what happened.

  18. #168
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    This reminds me of average joes with average girlfriends. They gawk at and lust over hot young women until they realize that they'll never have one. They then deceive themselves, saying "I didn't want her anyway..."

    It's human nature to despise the thing you want, but can't have.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  19. #169
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    True that!

  20. #170
    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    ...newer lens designs require someone with a higher level of understanding of basic optics than is typically shown here on Optiboard by the majority of those posting. So if they do not understand even basic optics, how can they explain even more complicated products.
    So it requires a PhD to explain how a lens will benefit a patient? Or to run a modern surfacer or edger? Do you understand the psychology of a patients mind when they're asking you about why this lens costs this much vs it's perceived benefit right? They don't care how much you (think) you know about ray tracing, specific gravity or Abbe value. They want a value. They do not want to be lectured with a physics dissertation.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    The OP asks if employers want someone with an education? The answer has been loudly provided in multiple posts, but it falls on deaf ears.
    Unfortunately, the answer has been provided...but not by the posts here. Rather by the current state of opticianry in the US. If the public and then by extension the employers that the public are funding through their sales thought it was truly important, all the internet start ups would have been non-starters wouldn't they.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    It is proven throughout history to be the great equalizer, and provide level playing fields. Only in Opticianry do those with no education try to hold others back along with themselves.
    In what field has education been a great equalizer? You can just as easily have completely inept and inane graduates - at any level. There is no promise that a given graduate will perform a given task at a higher level than non. The only way to find out requires chance on the part of the employer...along with the likely demand of much much greater compensation from the employee.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    We have a Canadian here talking about branding the title, when he/she really has not idea what it takes to brand anything.......which is a consistant product across all boundarys, which we do not have.
    Our Canadian is one of the few who's made any sense here. The fact that opticianry in the United States is in such a disheveled place isn't the fault of our friends up north. I'm rather surprised more haven't seen the value in the branding argument. It's more sensible than almost anything else presented on these boards as it pertains to advancing opticianry in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Employers do seek those with education.
    Perhaps in some fields, some employers do. But certainly not for almost all dispensing and lab jobs in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    But this entirre thread is somewhat useless, isn't it.
    I don't believe that to be true. And with over 150 comments, and approaching three and a half thousand views, it seems it's a topic which more than a few are interested in following.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    It is still a group of folks who see education as a negative thing.
    And here, you just couldn't be more wrong. In fact, the very opposite has been stated again and again. But if you feel like you're somehow making a strong argument for your case in trying to insert words into the mouths of those who disagree with you - so be it.

  21. #171
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    You seem to be somewhat hung up on my credentials. I am a professor, which requires my level of education, but I never indicated Opticians need a PhD or any graduate-level degree to explain lens designs. What I know, and is clear from reading this board is that most Opticians cannot explain much more than a PD and seg height (and often that is questionable), and we need to educate them. I am sorry of you are feeling inadequate, but trust me, I make my case and it remains intact. Your personal jabs do not deter me in any way. It is obvious you feel Opticians do not need education to anyone who reads your posts. You come from Utah, a non-licensed state. You have no real credentials yourself, and so I can understand your feelings of inadequacy, but there is help. Take a course or two; learn something! As to branding, I have studied this topic, and stand by my case. To brand something requires a consistent product, which we are not. Opticians have no national definition, and that is one significant weakness and standard education would solve. In fact, if you came to NC (my state) you could not legally use the title Optician without sitting for the boards. I hope that makes sense to you, but I doubt it.

    You are correct in one assertion. Employers do not want to pay for education right now. We have allowed someone other than ourselves to determine the level of education and training required for our field. Pharmacists did not, and have gone from a BS to a PharmD degree, demanding higher incomes. Dental Hygenists took a similar path. Only we lag behind all other health-related occupations. If we increase the requirements for future Opticians, we can, down the road, improve the lot for all. But you disagree, so I waste my breath again.

    I presented my argument, and it has remainded the same for many years. If you think you worry me in the least, trust me, you do not. In the early days of the 80s when I was singing this song, everyone was against me. Now, as is evident, I have a lot of support, because anyone who can objectively think can see we are not progressing. Why not get out of the way and even try to help. Provide something positive for a change.
    Last edited by wmcdonald; 05-08-2012 at 11:21 AM.

  22. #172
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    I am sad for my chosen profession. Having spent years working with our state and national organizations, toward the goal of college-educated, licensed Opticians in all 50 states, it now seems that it has been for naught.
    One of you asks "in what field has education been the great equalizer?", and I shudder. Perhaps the old saw, "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it", still holds true. Education opens doors. Ask your grandparents what the GI Bill meant for returning soldiers. Ask your parents what Brown v. Board of Education meant for chldren in very separate and not equal schools.
    By all means, stay stupid, but be prepared to be passed over again and again by educated professionals. This discussion, if you can call it that, is inane and unproductive. It's in an open forum where everyone and anyone can see how few of us deserve to be thought of as eyecare professionals.

  23. #173
    Optimentor Diane's Avatar
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    I found a report that I wrote in 1998 that was a part of a presentation to the Opticians Association of Georgia encouraging "Raising the Bar" for Opticianry that year, when I was president. I felt that we needed a resolution stating that as an organization, we were committed to formal education. That year, it passed with no opposition. It was also a presented to the Commission on Opticianry Accreditation, as we were "just beginning" to see the need for distant education for Opticians. I will share it now. Interestingly enough, there has been very little change since 1998 to "Raise the Bar".
    AdHoc Colloquium Committee Report
    By Diane F. Drake
    December 1998
    As I begin my portion of this report, I must first go back several hundred years, to first 1270 which is found in the Dates of Interest in the Evolution of Opticianry.

    In reading through some of the data, I found that Opticianry has evolved through Apprenticeship, first. In 1270, workmen or tinkerers manufactured the first eyeglasses. The next date of real interest to this report is 1320, when Italy, Germany and France created regulations to protect the trade by requiring craftsmanship and materials standards. As we go a little further through history, we see that Optometry evolved from Opticianry. An Optician named Foster began the first school of refracting in Boston in 1900. Since this is not a report on the evolution of Optometry, let me change the direction a little.

    The purpose of this beginning is this: Optometry and Ophthalmology both began, not as the professions that they are today, but by a necessary process of evolution, which began with apprenticeship. It’s time for Opticianry to make that same evolution. If we are going to be a viable profession in the future, it will be necessary for us to raise the bar of knowledge and education. That can only be done through formal education.

    Now let’s look at the state of Opticianry, today. We have all different types of people calling themselves Opticians. The statistics state that there are approximately 67,000 people who call themselves opticians. Some are licensed in their respective states, and some are not. Some are certified on a national level and some are not. Some were not even practicing as Opticians the week before and today call themselves an Optician. Even some of those persons who have been practicing for many years, and are quite successful, don’t see the need to seek formal education, much less be affiliated with either their local state association or any of their national organizations.

    We have some states that are licensed and some that are not. We see some Opticians who don’t see the need for licensure. We have some state Opticianry associations that are members of their national association, the OAA, and some that choose not to be so affiliated. What are their reasons? They vary, but partly, they choose not to let a national organization dictate how they will run their state associations. Is that a wise choice? For those of us who choose to belong, we think they are somewhat foolish, but the choice is still theirs to make, and we will not gain their support if we jump ahead with very strong dictates, too quickly.

    As a person attempts to climb a ladder to the top, it is easiest and safest to start with the bottom rung of the ladder and take one step up at a time. Opticianry has for the past several years, been jumping all over the ladder, and falling back with not a lot of success in getting to the top. We need to take the steps in an orderly fashion. Maybe we don’t need to take only one step at a time, but the only way that we will continue our journey to the top will be to not stretch our legs too far up past one or two steps at a time, or we will continue to fall.

    How can we accomplish the goal of coming together, and advancing our profession of Opticianry? We must recognize the other groups within our health care field, and gain their support. We must realize that we cannot dictate rules and changes to the states without explaining exactly why these changes are both necessary and beneficial to us all. Let us explain that the evolution of Opticianry has reached this level.

    We need to recognize those who came before us, and value their place in this evolutionary process. We cannot expect that either their titles or their value in this profession should change. Grandfathering Opticians is a good idea. If we expect that we will just start anew, with ONLY formally educated Opticians, we will surely fall. We will gain more support of formal education if we encourage those who arrived at their level of Optician through apprenticeship to help us in this process. That will only happen if they feel that the developmental process is necessary and does not take away their self worth. There are certainly more certified and licensed Opticians who became Opticians through apprenticeship right now than those who went through formal education to get there. We need their support.

    We are going to have to raise the bar of Opticianry. We need to provide for distance learning as well as the standard formal education that is in place now. There is not a realistic way that we can achieve the number of formally educated Opticians that we will need to survive in the future without it. There are simple not enough programs in schools available on a geographically reasonable level to accomplish it.

    For the distance learning to garner enough support, it will be necessary for us not to require the students to leave their hometowns, too often for the required testing that will be necessary. We need to make the test centers available on a very large scale. Who should administer this? We need to make sure that all of the national Opticianry organizations are included, and that they agree on how to do it. For contact lens testing, we should include CLSA.

    We need a consensus from the states that the proposals that are made are reasonable for the individual states. There should be equality within the system. Idealistically, we should be able to move from one state to another and be able to practice our profession. National licensure would accomplish this, but we cannot overlook states rights. Do other health care professions have national licensure that allows them to go from one state to another and continue to practice without first taking that state’s test?

    We need to make sure that the education that is offered through both distance learning and through more conventional formal education (i.e. COA accredited programs) are teaching from the same page in the book. The distance learning programs should also come from COA accredited programs only in order for that consistency to be available. The COA will have to co-ordinate with ALL states regulations in order to see that what applies to one, is acceptable in another state. This will not be an easy task. States educational regulations vary.

    We should have different levels of Opticianry. The titles of these, beginning with entry level should not conflict with other groups of the eyecare industry. No overlapping of acronyms.

    As I have researched some of the ideas of different Opticians across the country, both personally, and through the Internet and by e-mail, I have found a lot of different opinions as to just what an Optician should be able to do in order to call him/herself an Optician. We need to understand that we could in reality set specialties apart within the realm of Opticianry and still not dilute just what an Optician is. We all have different areas of expertise, and as long as we fulfil the basic requirements, we can be Opticians. Different levels can and should exist. Throughout the country, I see that the general feeling of Opticians is that we need ONE strong national organization. I realize that this idea may not become reality any time soon, but the strength that would come from it could only benefit us all. It would bring in more support from all of those other 67,000 people out there who call themselves Opticians.

    If we are to continue to evolve, we must advance in our knowledge. Therefore, we must increase the requirement for entry level to include a minimum of an AAS degree. From that point onward, we raise the bar even more. We need to begin the process with minimum basic education standards and continue from there. We also need to make sure that we don’t create a process that is self-ending. We need to allow for further development of the system. The needs of the public will continue to grow and change and we need to be able to grow and change with it.


    We do need a time frame to be set. This needs to be a realistic time frame that is agreeable to all of the national organizations and acceptable to the states. We need to realize that the state licensing boards don’t have the ability to change the laws of the states, therefore we need the support of the state associations, and a good relationship with the state boards and legislative support. We should encourage ALL states to participate, or we become very weak.

    We need both basic entry level and advanced continuing education. Those persons who have the higher levels of certification must be required to attend advanced levels of CE. Credits should be given for a limited numbers of basic courses for review purposes to those advance level certificants.

    During the process of upgrading our profession, we need to educate the consumer, (our patients) as to what an Optician is and what the different levels are. If the consumer demands educated Opticians, we will surely have them. Otherwise the profession will die.

    Diane
    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

  24. #174
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Don't despair. Warren is correct. From my recent experiences, I'd say he understates how much support formal education now has at the higher levels of the profession.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  25. #175
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    @ Diane -perhaps you didn't have the right vehicle to use as a change agent. Perhaps opticians weren't ready. Perhaps things are different.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

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