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Thread: Attention Opticians: Please stop blaming organizations for our failings.

  1. #51
    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Just thinking,perhaps we should suggest to all the vision insurances that if they are going to give their customers the best care they should require that only ABO certified opticians should fit and dispense the eyewear (not just be on staff or in the building). Most OD practices rely on 3rd party plans for at least 50% of their revenue. If they did this their particular vision plan would gain marketable prestige and compliance would limit the hiring pool of qualified dispensers. Our profession would be elevated ,if only a little. REIMBURSEMENT MONEY TALKS :P Or am I CRAZY????!!!! Please be kind with your replys

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    tx11,
    Without a mandated state license,the insurance folks have no interest.......at least they have not in the past. You may be able to convince them, however, so go for it! As to the ABO, some years back, I teamed with a colleague in a test of the veracity of the NOCE. We took a relatively new, young secretary who worked in the offices of a national organization. We gave her a study guide for 30 days, and asked her to review it and do some prep work. The ABO folks allowed her to take the exam, and she passed with an 80 (they made an exception to the year of experience required at the time). This was nearly 25 years ago. The exam is regularly reviewed and not a bad exam, but this young woman passed, and could no more do any of the clinical side of the house than my 5-year old grandson. Today, there is no experience requirement.......al lthat is needed is a check that clears and a pulse. We have a pass rate of slightly over 50%. This will not elevate anything. Early on, I had similar feelings regarding the exam, but not any longer.

    You mention above Barry's comment that much of what we do is rather automatic today, and that is true. But it is also true for every other facet of life, no? Does that mean we should not learn math because we have calculators? Of course not, and Opticians should not stop learning about past methods either.

    Think about this, if this secretary can pass with no experience at all (she did not even wear glasses) and the average pass rate for the ABO is not around 52%, why? Is it that we are not attracting bright folks, or are they just not receiving any training? I will leave it up to you to decide for yourself, but it is obvious to me. We are failing these folks. If you look at every other health-related field, these entry requirements pale incomparison. If we continue to dumb-down this field with each new generation, then soon (and we may be there before too long) we will be irrelavant. We must look, as every other profession has done, towards some kind of mandated formal education and seek to expand the things we can do. My research indicates almost anybody ccan perform the task of an Optician today, and that must change. Folks yell about the short length of Ted Morse's program (6 months), but it is 40-hoursp er week, unlike many more traditional programs. I support any kind of education for these folks, because they clearly don't get any right now. From nearly 40 years of studying this "profession" and how to improve it, I stand by my suppor for formal education stronger than ever.
    Last edited by wmcdonald; 04-10-2012 at 08:10 AM.

  3. #53
    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    TRUE knowing something and knowing how to do something are two totally different things. Perhaps pass theory test on paper wich would allow you to enter the field and then 12 mos to pass a hands on practical based upon the date of the theory test. B)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tx11 View Post
    TRUE knowing something and knowing how to do something are two totally different things. Perhaps pass theory test on paper wich would allow you to enter the field and then 12 mos to pass a hands on practical based upon the date of the theory test. B)
    A good suggestion, but what happens during the year if they do not pass some practical, and what should it include? You see the difficulty. If we just had a solid training program to start with all the BS would go away.

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    Master OptiBoarder tx11's Avatar
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    Hmmm...Perhaps they could be issued a temporary learners permit that lasts a year if they dont pass the practical offered quarterly by a community college,they don't get to work. Gives incentive to employers who hire sales dynamos to get their people up to parr or lose them.Gives incentive to want to be opticians to get proficient or find anothet type of work. I must be insane..!!! =P

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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    tx11,
    Without a mandated state license,the insurance folks have no interest.......at least they have not in the past. You may be able to convince them, however, so go for it! As to the ABO, some years back, I teamed with a colleague in a test of the veracity of the NOCE. We took a relatively new, young secretary who worked in the offices of a national organization. We gave her a study guide for 30 days, and asked her to review it and do some prep work. The ABO folks allowed her to take the exam, and she passed with an 80 (they made an exception to the year of experience required at the time). This was nearly 25 years ago. The exam is regularly reviewed and not a bad exam, but this young woman passed, and could no more do any of the clinical side of the house than my 5-year old grandson. Today, there is no experience requirement.......al lthat is needed is a check that clears and a pulse. We have a pass rate of slightly over 50%. This will not elevate anything. Early on, I had similar feelings regarding the exam, but not any longer.

    You mention above Barry's comment that much of what we do is rather automatic today, and that is true. But it is also true for every other facet of life, no? Does that mean we should not learn math because we have calculators? Of course not, and Opticians should not stop learning about past methods either.

    Think about this, if this secretary can pass with no experience at all (she did not even wear glasses) and the average pass rate for the ABO is not around 52%, why? Is it that we are not attracting bright folks, or are they just not receiving any training? I will leave it up to you to decide for yourself, but it is obvious to me. We are failing these folks. If you look at every other health-related field, these entry requirements pale incomparison. If we continue to dumb-down this field with each new generation, then soon (and we may be there before too long) we will be irrelavant. We must look, as every other profession has done, towards some kind of mandated formal education and seek to expand the things we can do. My research indicates almost anybody ccan perform the task of an Optician today, and that must change. Folks yell about the short length of Ted Morse's program (6 months), but it is 40-hoursp er week, unlike many more traditional programs. I support any kind of education for these folks, because they clearly don't get any right now. From nearly 40 years of studying this "profession" and how to improve it, I stand by my suppor for formal education stronger than ever.
    I REALLY liked the fact that the secretary actually did some studying and some prep work, thats more than most new hires and even more than some who have been in the field some years! Also --probably a bright person

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    I like that you are thinking out of the box Tx11, we need some creativity here.

    Quote Originally Posted by tx11 View Post
    Just thinking,perhaps we should suggest to all the vision insurances that if they are going to give their customers the best care they should require that only ABO certified opticians should fit and dispense the eyewear (not just be on staff or in the building). Most OD practices rely on 3rd party plans for at least 50% of their revenue. If they did this their particular vision plan would gain marketable prestige and compliance would limit the hiring pool of qualified dispensers. Our profession would be elevated ,if only a little. REIMBURSEMENT MONEY TALKS :P Or am I CRAZY????!!!! Please be kind with your replys
    PS Is that kind enough?

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    Wes, you are wholly correct in saying that Opticians are uneducated, apathetic and ignorant. Our disagreement (if we have any) is how to change that.

    I could spend a million dollars a day in TV ads to Opticians all around the US trying to convince them that they are stupid, ignorant and should quit their jobs and go back to college. The problem with that approach is that it would have zero effect. Yelling at Opticians all day may make us feel better, but it won't do one ounce of good. It will not change one single mind. It will not educate a single soul or inspire them to do more.

    The ABO for both its good and bad is the largest most influential Optical organization in the US. As such they have an enormous amount of influence and remain the only organization capable of effecting change on any level in Opticianry. So to respond to your call and say that you are not asking it HOW IT SHOULD WORK is the call to do nothing. If the ABO does not change, simply nothing else will. It has to start there.

    It has been the ABO's philosophy to base their test on a sample of candidates. We agree on that fact. But the question remains is that really a good philosophy to test on? We assume its the only testing philosophy they can use, like its written in law. But other organizations have applied different testing philosophies to great effect, especially Drs, Lawyers, Accountants, Certified Financial Planners whos tests are based on the future needs of their industry. They don't contend with anyone doubting the veracity or effectiveness of their tests.

    But lets look at it this way, what if your brain surgeon's testing was based on a sample? in order to achieve a specific pass rate? The testing philosophy is flawed because essentially the candidates determine the test, not the needs in the real world to do perform the job effectively, nor knowledge gained by research or peers. That will always be excluded inherently, as it excludes what they SHOULD know both today and in the future. That philosophy is lethal.

    I talk to Opticians everyday about education. You are right its like talking to a wall. To effect change, any change... it can only begin with the ABO or it does not begin at all. They need a different testing philosophy. Testing is the only way this industry and Opticianry can advance... we can't go back into history and change the background. We can only go forward... and effective testing like a Bar Exam is the only way forward. It is the only way to inspire Opticians and future Opticians to seek more education. It is the only to resolve the effectiveness of Education, Apprenticeship or Boot strapping and eliminate the potential disparities.

    We need a a progressive standarized test based on real world needs, with different levels that are both modular and accessible starting with Frame Stylist, going to Apprentice Optician, through Masters. The ABO has not been effective at influencing people to move to the Advanced and then Masters levels for whatever. Simply put, they have failed. If they can't succeed, nothing else in this industry can.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    ...so that you can understand where the problems lie. They lie with us. They lie with the state leaderships, or lack thereof. They lie with our weakness, and our apathy, and our ignorance. If enough of you know and understand the process, you can effect the change we need.
    I do not make these statements as an advocate of any organization. I make them as an advocate of what opticianry can and should be. You can heed these words and demand more from yourself and your leadership. You can become the leadership. You can demand more from your suppliers and employers, or you can fade away into irrelevance. You can choose ignorance and apathy or knowledge and wisdom. Read my signature line and think about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    The standard is set by the sample group from the profession. If too many fail, the test's validity is called into question. Then the test must be dumbed down to match the population of opticians who have dumbed themselves down.

    The ABO is not, and has never, set the standard for opticianry with the NOCE or the CLRE. They are a reflection of the field of opticians. If you don't like what you see in the mirror, do you blame the mirror? It seems that opticians do. If you want change, we have to change US, not the mirror.

    The entire point of this thread is to TELL YOU HOW IT WORKS, NOT ASK HOW YOU THINK IT SHOULD WORK.

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    Van,
    The issue is not the current crop of folks. They are already "in" with little to no preparation. What we need to be thinking about is the future folks. We must consider giving them some kind of required formal education by a mutually agreed upon time (20xx) and slowly we will make positive change.

    Warren

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    I agree with you entirely Warren, there must be education... but I think there needs to be effective testing at the end of that education. Much like the Bar Exam.

    The reason the Bar exam exists is to ensure a commonality and and consistancy among many institutions that teach Law. Without it, those institutions would simply diverge in quality and quantity of legal education. Since a JD is essentially worthless without passing the Bar, educational institutions must prepare their students for that exam. It unites many colleges in the same goal without dictating directly to them what and when they teach. If their students stopped passing the bar (those results are published) those colleges would simply lose students to other colleges. They have INCENTIVE to create programs that help their students pass, the students have INCENTIVE to Pass, their needs are in line. We need to bring incentive into this equation and align the needs of varying interests.

    There are many Opticians that think they don't need any education (even continuing) and they have sufficient skills according to their own self assessment. Without a test nothing can give them a "level" and they have no ability to accurately self assess except for using the Optician next to them. And I look pretty good using that method I might add. If I had a test, with results in specific areas, I can focus on what I need to learn. The problem with those Opticians who want to learn is that they have no idea where to go, and what they need to focus on. If we had a way to assess their skills, they would be able to both feel good about where they did well, and have direction on where they did not. Each section could contain a list of supporting materials and CE classes. We can't expect people to head a direction without signage, a test can give that signage.

    Testing is another way for Opticians who have learned on their own effectively to earn the respect they deserve as well. I am big fan of structured formal education, but it has not been available to everyone in this industry as their are only a handfull of schools. For example 25 years ago in California when I started there was not a single Opticianry school in the worlds 10th largest economy. Many of these people have a done a great job, read books, studied, enthustically taken CEs and learned on their own. Despite their circumstances they have been committed to self education and have acquired a valuable wealth of knowledge. Although its not the future of Opticianry, it is our past. And through testing we can bring that knowledge and skill base into the future and let future Opticians learn from thier great knowledge. We cannot go forward until we bring our past and future together in some way, and testing the only way to do that.

    Even when we are a world where schools in every state offer both 2 and 4 year Optical Management and Science degrees testing is still the only way to ensure the quality of education at those institutions.

    My hope is that the ABO would refine and reassess their role in this industry, and see the potential influence they can have to shape this industry for the better.
    Testing is really an answer to a lot of the debates we have here on Optiboard, but currently there is not an institution that provides it effectively. The ABO could fill that role but they will have to change their strategy. Until then we will flounder.

    Testing is simply the only way to unite diverse backgrounds and incentives to build a foundation for education that I see.

    What the American Bar Association did over time is similar what we need to do. Attorney's came from a diverse background, from Apprentices to colleges, some with law studies, some with not. Some simply put up shingles and called themselves lawyers. Many lawyers worked as clerks and paralegals, and then became attorney's. Some went to college, but not in law. So they created a standarized test. It didn't matter what your background was or where you got your skills at first, if you passed that test you were an Attorney. This allowed people to be grandfathered in who were practicing law. However, over time, the test got slowly harder. People NEEDED more classes, and law schools were born, all to pass the test. Now the test is so difficult in some states, after 7 years of school, students still spend $20K on special test prep-classes to pass the Bar (some states only have about a 20% pass rate the first time). Passing the Bar is required to practice law now, but it wasn't always. They didn't wait until the laws changed to create the Bar Exam, the provided the Bar Exam THEN the laws began to change.

    What I propose is a multi-level Optical test, from Frame Stylist to Master Optician, with steps in between. I think I am good? Then I should test well. If I don't my test results will give me specific areas of study I can work on to pass to the next level. This both honors what people already know, and gives them help for what they don't. As the test gets harder over time, formal education will increase in need. Once its needed more, the number of schools will grow. Once the numbers of schools grow, more people will choose formal Optical education. There is a reason that colleges exist in every major city, higher education is extremely localized. People overwhelmingly attend colleges near where they live, sure some people go out of state, but its only about 22% of students I think but you probably have better numbers than I.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Van,
    The issue is not the current crop of folks. They are already "in" with little to no preparation. What we need to be thinking about is the future folks. We must consider giving them some kind of required formal education by a mutually agreed upon time (20xx) and slowly we will make positive change.

    Warren

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    TX - WM,
    There is currently one exam that tests student-apprentices after their 1st year as step 1 in the exam process. They get tested again at the end of school and apprenticeship.
    The challenge with the exam is that there is a subjective portion that could (has) seen strong people fail based on criteria that is questionable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Optician1960 View Post
    TX - WM,
    There is currently one exam that tests student-apprentices after their 1st year as step 1 in the exam process. They get tested again at the end of school and apprenticeship.
    The challenge with the exam is that there is a subjective portion that could (has) seen strong people fail based on criteria that is questionable.
    I am unaware of any exam that tests apprentices. In my research, apprenticeship is largely cheap labor, with no real training going on. I would be pleased to know there an apprenticeship with this structure. Please share with us.
    Last edited by wmcdonald; 04-10-2012 at 03:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    I agree with you entirely Warren, there must be education... but I think there needs to be effective testing at the end of that education. Much like the Bar Exam.

    The reason the Bar exam exists is to ensure a commonality and and consistancy among many institutions that teach Law. Without it, those institutions would simply diverge in quality and quantity of legal education. Since a JD is essentially worthless without passing the Bar, educational institutions must prepare their students for that exam. It unites many colleges in the same goal without dictating directly to them what and when they teach. If their students stopped passing the bar (those results are published) those colleges would simply lose students to other colleges. They have INCENTIVE to create programs that help their students pass, the students have INCENTIVE to Pass, their needs are in line. We need to bring incentive into this equation and align the needs of varying interests.

    There are many Opticians that think they don't need any education (even continuing) and they have sufficient skills according to their own self assessment. Without a test nothing can give them a "level" and they have no ability to accurately self assess except for using the Optician next to them. And I look pretty good using that method I might add. If I had a test, with results in specific areas, I can focus on what I need to learn. The problem with those Opticians who want to learn is that they have no idea where to go, and what they need to focus on. If we had a way to assess their skills, they would be able to both feel good about where they did well, and have direction on where they did not. Each section could contain a list of supporting materials and CE classes. We can't expect people to head a direction without signage, a test can give that signage.

    Testing is another way for Opticians who have learned on their own effectively to earn the respect they deserve as well. I am big fan of structured formal education, but it has not been available to everyone in this industry as their are only a handfull of schools. For example 25 years ago in California when I started there was not a single Opticianry school in the worlds 10th largest economy. Many of these people have a done a great job, read books, studied, enthustically taken CEs and learned on their own. Despite their circumstances they have been committed to self education and have acquired a valuable wealth of knowledge. Although its not the future of Opticianry, it is our past. And through testing we can bring that knowledge and skill base into the future and let future Opticians learn from thier great knowledge. We cannot go forward until we bring our past and future together in some way, and testing the only way to do that.

    Even when we are a world where schools in every state offer both 2 and 4 year Optical Management and Science degrees testing is still the only way to ensure the quality of education at those institutions.

    My hope is that the ABO would refine and reassess their role in this industry, and see the potential influence they can have to shape this industry for the better.
    Testing is really an answer to a lot of the debates we have here on Optiboard, but currently there is not an institution that provides it effectively. The ABO could fill that role but they will have to change their strategy. Until then we will flounder.

    Testing is simply the only way to unite diverse backgrounds and incentives to build a foundation for education that I see.

    What the American Bar Association did over time is similar what we need to do. Attorney's came from a diverse background, from Apprentices to colleges, some with law studies, some with not. Some simply put up shingles and called themselves lawyers. Many lawyers worked as clerks and paralegals, and then became attorney's. Some went to college, but not in law. So they created a standarized test. It didn't matter what your background was or where you got your skills at first, if you passed that test you were an Attorney. This allowed people to be grandfathered in who were practicing law. However, over time, the test got slowly harder. People NEEDED more classes, and law schools were born, all to pass the test. Now the test is so difficult in some states, after 7 years of school, students still spend $20K on special test prep-classes to pass the Bar (some states only have about a 20% pass rate the first time). Passing the Bar is required to practice law now, but it wasn't always. They didn't wait until the laws changed to create the Bar Exam, the provided the Bar Exam THEN the laws began to change.

    What I propose is a multi-level Optical test, from Frame Stylist to Master Optician, with steps in between. I think I am good? Then I should test well. If I don't my test results will give me specific areas of study I can work on to pass to the next level. This both honors what people already know, and gives them help for what they don't. As the test gets harder over time, formal education will increase in need. Once its needed more, the number of schools will grow. Once the numbers of schools grow, more people will choose formal Optical education. There is a reason that colleges exist in every major city, higher education is extremely localized. People overwhelmingly attend colleges near where they live, sure some people go out of state, but its only about 22% of students I think but you probably have better numbers than I.
    Van,
    Your concern appears to be the present folks in the field. Good luck with that. Most came because they either fell into a job or could do nothing else. Not all, mind you, but most of the folks who call themselves Opticians in this country do not even have a rudimentary understanding of optics. Some can seel "product", but if they know little about the product how is quality affected? I am now more concerned about forgetting this current group, and increasing standards for those coming down the road. It is going to be a slow process, but that is how the ODs and others accomplished what they have, and I believe that is the best model.

    In all but 2 jurisdictions, lawyers stopped doing this kind of training 50 years or more ago. So did physicians, nurses, and everyone else......except Opticians. They have advanced, as we continued to wonder what happened. As long as folks can learn on their own, we will never gain any professional respect from anyone other than ourselves. I am sorry Van, but I want to begin to attract brighter students, not "frame stylists". If we keep on screwing around, thats all we will become. As Barry mentioned, and my research validates, almost anyone can do what it is we do now, and technology just may eliminate the need for us altogether. I am no longer worried about the current folks, but seek to expand opportunities for future Opticians. Of course there needs to be a test after we complete our education.......I strongly support that, but it needs to require more than a 30 IQ to pass.

    As to self-assessment.......most Opticians do not know what they do not know. They have never been exposed to many things, because their "apprenticeship" supervisor either did not have the background or just did not share it well. If we are to be a true profession, then the understanding comes from passing courses that effectively measure knowledge. We must provide a solid background for future professionals in this field. and that means education.

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    WM:
    It is : NJ.

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    Thanks, I appreciate that, but I thought we were talking on a national scale. NJ also licenses lab techs, which is a real stretch to me. I do like the approach to testing during training, much like ODs, and physicians do. Measuring competencies is a good idea, if there is a solid nderstanding across the nation as to what the standards are, or should be.

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    Dr. McDonald,
    I agree with you on most points. But I do want to leave a path for the current good and skilled people in the field to advance and grow to a professional level. I understand your frustration with the McOpticians, I see them everyday myself.

    But to get to the point where we have available and effective education, we need the support of the wider full time optical community to that, we need a path for those people with great skill to achieve professional stature. We need their support, and we need them to teach.

    Right now I think you, Roy and Darrell, Ed Degennaro and few other may be the only people in the US really qualified to be University level Optical educators, but its a small list. If by some bizarre chance (airplane crash where it was blamed on poor glasses for example), Colleges across the US started adding degree level Optical programs and we had licensure in every state, there would simply be no one really qualified to teach them.

    We need something to fill that gap until enough fully educated Opticians graduate, and can fill that role in the distant future. The alternative would be to bring in educators outside of optical, and I think that would be just trading one disaster for another. Education is great, but we must have people qualified as educators too. Right now we don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Van,
    Your concern appears to be the present folks in the field. Good luck with that. ... I am now more concerned about forgetting this current group, and increasing standards for those coming down the road. It is going to be a slow process, but that is how the ODs and others accomplished what they have, and I believe that is the best model.... I am no longer worried about the current folks, but seek to expand opportunities for future Opticians. Of course there needs to be a test after we complete our education.......I strongly support that, but it needs to require more than a 30 IQ to pass.

    As to self-assessment.......most Opticians do not know what they do not know. They have never been exposed to many things, because their "apprenticeship" supervisor either did not have the background or just did not share it well. If we are to be a true profession, then the understanding comes from passing courses that effectively measure knowledge. We must provide a solid background for future professionals in this field. and that means education.

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    Tx 11,
    I am not telling you what group to put your money at thats up to you. I would talk to OAT in Texas and see where it leads if you want to step up or just be like the rest and complane and do nothing. So its not easy it takes one person at a time to help. As far as getting paid by insurance companies do you really want to except 50% of your labor and fees. The insurance companies likes getting ods to sign up.
    Donald D Price

    Ophthalmic Optician, Society to Advance Opticianry

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    Quote Originally Posted by sharpstick777 View Post
    Dr. McDonald,
    I agree with you on most points. But I do want to leave a path for the current good and skilled people in the field to advance and grow to a professional level. I understand your frustration with the McOpticians, I see them everyday myself.

    But to get to the point where we have available and effective education, we need the support of the wider full time optical community to that, we need a path for those people with great skill to achieve professional stature. We need their support, and we need them to teach.

    Right now I think you, Roy and Darrell, Ed Degennaro and few other may be the only people in the US really qualified to be University level Optical educators, but its a small list. If by some bizarre chance (airplane crash where it was blamed on poor glasses for example), Colleges across the US started adding degree level Optical programs and we had licensure in every state, there would simply be no one really qualified to teach them.

    We need something to fill that gap until enough fully educated Opticians graduate, and can fill that role in the distant future. The alternative would be to bring in educators outside of optical, and I think that would be just trading one disaster for another. Education is great, but we must have people qualified as educators too. Right now we don't.
    I understand, Van, but unfortunately Roy, myself and a few others have been unble to motivate current folks to any large degree. The profession needs leadership that will establish standards for the future. As to programs, COA currently recognizes 24 programs and there are a number of others not accredited. I am not suggesting we send people to a university for their education, but to support existing ones. Anything is better than what we have now! I am not suggesting existing folks do anything, except support the future of their profession, and some see this as a personal insult, and it is not intended that way. We need to take a firm stand and establish standards like pharmacy did. Just a few years ago, they required a bachelor's degree. Now it is a doctorate. People are concerned about the chains paying? If they want to be in this business, and they are required to have Opticians, they will pay, just as they do for the PharmD. We let others decide our fate too much, and should do the following things:
    1. Agree on what an Optician should do in the future, and it must include some expansion of scope. This must be agreed upon by all states, and shoud look to model those who have the strongest current requirements.
    2. Establish a strategic timeline for the implementations.
    3. Since the idea of legislative involvement will be difficult, base it upon board certification, such as the ABO, but make it rigorous to mean something.
    4. Market the individuals who meet the standards to the public, much the way CPAs do.

    If this sounds familiar, it is the exact path described in the Society to Advance Opticianry's iitial converstaion. It now exists, and I encourage you to take a look at it. Join the group. It is quietly developing, and in the next year or so, should be in a solid position.

    I appreciate your interest, and hope you take a look. Roy, myself, Ed De Gennaro, Laurie Pierce, and many from Optiboard are full members. It does require specific ducation and certification/licensure credentials, but if you are teaching, you should meet them just fine. Doa searc here, however, and you will see it is not supported by all. Some felt they should be allowed in because they had x years of experience, but this organization is one that will recognize education. If you do not have a degree, we have a candidate membership and can show you how to complete a degree through a number of institutions.

    I hear you loud and clear on the current folks, but there are existing paths for these folks they have chosen not to follow. Advanced certification is already there, as is the Masters in Ophthalmic Optics, but few seek it. It is the future I am most concerned with now, as we keep on dumbing down with each new generation, and it is time to put a stop to that by establishing future standards now.

  19. #69
    OptiBoardaholic J.P.'s Avatar
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    If I could kiss you I would...... But then again you're not my type Wes, LOL

    AMEN on it all!!!!!
    Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
    ~ Mark Twain ~

  20. #70
    Optimentor Diane's Avatar
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    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

    So much of what is not happening today is because current Opticians fear that their credibility will be less or questioned because they have achieved what they dreamed of and worked for without formal education. I am an apprentice trained optician from back in the 70's. What I learned was how to make a great pair of glasses, adjust glasses well and communicate well with patients. I was taught to problem solve situations to find out the best soltion for a patient. I was taught that the most important patient/customer was the one in front of me at the exact moment. What I also learned was that there was a lot that I wasn't taught during apprenticeship. I wanted more knowledge. I wanted validation. I owned my own practice. I surrounded myself with very knowledgeable optical professionals who taught me a lot. I value them to this day. I desired to learn, and worked hard at it. It wasn't easy. I PAID for courses, books, training out of my own pocket and kept all my resources. There are a lot of really great Opticians who were apprentice trained. However, the industry has changed/evolved, and I recognize the necessity of formal education to ensure that our profession survives. The "Guild Masters" who trained opticians in the past are fewer and further apart. Today, I see employees who cry "I can't because my boss won't pay for it for me". The mentality needs to change. I am not LESS because I support formal education and was apprentice trained. I believe that I need to support the future. It must be formal education for opticians if we are to survive.

    I applaud the young Opticians with the passion, today to make a difference. For those who want to just make themselves "look good", get out of the way of the rest.

    I have been around a long time, and wanted to stop the battles for myself a while ago. I felt like I had done my part. I've changed my mind. I am a warrior, and won't lay down my sword because I still need to help ensure the future for my fellow Opticians. I'm still fighting for my students and the program at Georgia Piedmont Technical College, because I believe we need it. We need more education, not less.

    Just my thoughts for today.

    Diane
    Anything worth doing is worth doing well.

  21. #71
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    You are correct in that the Apprenticeship system of the past was a failure. But not a miserable one, just a misplaced one. Although I believe strongly that formal college education is the future of Opticianry, I also believe that a good and solid Apprenticeship is the only way to get to that point.
    Apprenticeship was a common method of passing on trade skills before formal education and training programs became widely available. You would spend years learning and mastering a trade from a master craftsman, until you finally took over for him or started your own shop. It does not refer to a guy who learns to use the cash register at McDonald's during his first week of "training." Nor does it refer to learning to take a PD measurement from someone who got hired 6 months before you did.

    The apprenticeship system was well suited for the Middle Ages. Today, however, "apprenticeship" simply means "no experience or training necessary." And you will never increase your professional status in that kind of context. Yet the term "apprenticeship" has been thrown around in these discussions for at least 20 years or more in an attempt to romanticize what we are doing. But, since the status of professional opticianry has failed to advance in over 20 years, are we really fooling anyone but ourselves?

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  22. #72
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    You are correct in that Apprenticeship is outdated Darryl, but my version of Apprenticeship is different than those of the past. There are a lot of great boot-strap opticians out there now, who through no fault of their own have no formal optical training. There simply is not great availability for schools in every region of the country. Since most college students attend school within 300 miles of their hometown we have inherantly created a situation where the ideal of a fully professional field is practically impossible.

    To expand education we need instructors. To get instructors, we need those Boot-strap geniuses to be qualified through an Adanced Apprenticeship. My hope is take these 20 year boot-strap veterans, fill in their education, give them professional statue so they can be instructors at Optical colleges.

    Although we can all agree that formal degreed education is the only future. I seem to be the only one on this forum with at least one idea how to get there. You may not like my idea, but why not offer your own? No offense to the ideal, to you, to Warren or to Wes, I love you all.

    Without a PLAN an ideal, no matter how noble, is simply worthless.

    We can wish for educated Opticians. But until we create more college programs, it simply won't happen. We cannot create more college programs until we have instructors. We cannot have instructors until some kind of professional certification is wide spread and accessible, and the great source of those potential instructors are the boot-strap veterans. Testing and Advanced Apprenticeship remain the only two tools to certify instructors, unless you want to wait 50 years.

    I am open to other ideas, but all i hear is "we need education". Great idea. But we need to start filling in the foundation now so that can happen later. Wishing won't make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darryl Meister View Post
    Apprenticeship was a common method of passing on trade skills before formal education and training programs became widely available. You would spend years learning and mastering a trade from a master craftsman, until you finally took over for him or started your own shop. It does not refer to a guy who learns to use the cash register at McDonald's during his first week of "training." Nor does it refer to learning to take a PD measurement from someone who got hired 6 months before you did.

    The apprenticeship system was well suited for the Middle Ages. Today, however, "apprenticeship" simply means "no experience or training necessary." And you will never increase your professional status in that kind of context. Yet the term "apprenticeship" has been thrown around in these discussions for at least 20 years or more in an attempt to romanticize what we are doing. But, since the status of professional opticianry has failed to advance in over 20 years, are we really fooling anyone but ourselves?

    Best regards,
    Darryl

  23. #73
    Master OptiBoarder
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    There are almost 40 existing optical programs in the United States, and NAIT offers an outstanding online program that can easily be tailored for any state. There are approximately 16% of the existing population of Opticians in the US with Bachelor's degrees, and around 6% with graduate degrees. There are plenty of folks to teach the courses, just no push from the profession to support it.

  24. #74
    Master OptiBoarder Darryl Meister's Avatar
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    There simply is not great availability for schools in every region of the country. Since most college students attend school within 300 miles of their hometown we have inherantly created a situation where the ideal of a fully professional field is practically impossible.
    I disagree with your argument regarding the availability of optical programs, which I see as a circular argument. We don't have enough schools, because most opticians have not sought formal education. In fact, we actually had more optical programs in the past, although several have shut down over the years. Even now, accredited distance learning optical programs have made opticianry available to just about anyone.

    to get instructors, we need those Boot-strap geniuses to be qualified through an Adanced Apprenticeship
    I don't necessarily know that any apprenticeship program could qualify someone to teach college-level courses on the subject. And how is implementing a nation-wide "Advanced Apprenticeship" program any easier than getting an aspiring optician to take an online course? Or even taking the ABO-AC exam, for that matter?

    Perhaps I do not understand what you are proposing as your version of apprenticeship, but unless it differs markedly from the current so-called apprenticeship under which most opticians are currently trained, I really don't see how it could advance the profession in any meaningful way. If optometrists had relied only on apprenticeship to advance their profession, they wouldn't be making on average three to four times what opticians make.

    Best regards,
    Darryl
    Darryl J. Meister, ABOM

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    I understand, Van, but unfortunately Roy, myself and a few others have been unble to motivate current folks to any large degree.
    ....some see this as a personal insult, and it is not intended that way.
    Again, the idea without a clear plan, although noble... will foster uncertaintly. That uncertainty will flow into resentment, and then resistance. That restistance will either lead to apathy or impass.

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