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Thread: BC Minister ORDERING optometrist to take FREE PD

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  1. #1
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    BC Minister ORDERING optometrist to take FREE PD

    Read the following ... since when can a gov. is able to order someone to work for free ??
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 001BC.jpg   002BC.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by oculus View Post
    Read the following ... since when can a gov. is able to order someone to work for free ??

    The MOH did not uphold the previous rules and regulations and also over rode their own provincial court judges. Is the MOH prepared to pay for the equipment necessary to take the PD measurements and is the MOH prepared to work for free himself ?

    If not then the appropriate response by Optometry would be S. I.U.Y.A. followed by a strike and refusal to handle welfare cases at ridiculously old fee schedule prices .

    Optometrists and opticians across the country should join in and do the same.

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    bla bla bla - the government can't do squat about this. Simply keep refusing and keep ignoring. Screw them.

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    Maybe things work differently in Canada, but I would be careful about being hardnosed about anything...lest you wind up pi&&ing off some legislators spouse that wants a PD, then you will have something like the FCLC Act foisted upon you, as happened in the states.

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    If the requirement was not laid out in the negotiated agreement with the association as to what constitutes an eye health assessment then likely that document needs to be re-visited and re-negotiated. PD has nothing to do with eye health.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J Shaw OD View Post
    If the requirement was not laid out in the negotiated agreement with the association as to what constitutes an eye health assessment then likely that document needs to be re-visited and re-negotiated. PD has nothing to do with eye health.
    Maybe the gov. can make the pd an obligation for patients who are covered by a prov. assurance ... but how could they impose this for patient who pay themself ?

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    If it isn't part of the negotiation with the Gov. for welfare then it isn't included. As for private patients one can say sorry, that is up to the association to define what constitutes an eye exam. PD is an option like a BV work-up, also, if the PD is wrong who is liable? I think that the whole issue is ridiculous, tell the patient that the PD is the responsibility of the Optician when the Rx leaves the office.If the patient wants to be his own optician (i said his on purpose because women aren't that stupid :)) and purchase online then he can guess his own. All optometrists should check out www.shawlens.com, our lenses require vergence facility to assist in the management of dynamic aniseikonia (induced prismatic effect).

    But it is BC, after all so nothing rational ever comes from there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J Shaw OD View Post
    If it isn't part of the negotiation with the Gov. for welfare then it isn't included. As for private patients one can say sorry, that is up to the association to define what constitutes an eye exam. PD is an option like a BV work-up, also, if the PD is wrong who is liable? I think that the whole issue is ridiculous, tell the patient that the PD is the responsibility of the Optician when the Rx leaves the office.If the patient wants to be his own optician (i said his on purpose because women aren't that stupid :)) and purchase online then he can guess his own. All optometrists should check out www.shawlens.com, our lenses require vergence facility to assist in the management of dynamic aniseikonia (induced prismatic effect).

    But it is BC, after all so nothing rational ever comes from there!
    What a fromage way to plug one's own product from a very limited controlled distribution network. Shame.

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    We can't work for free and we can't buy equipment for free and our rent is not free nor is the labor of ourselves and staff free. There has to be consesquences to unbundling that is born by both the government and the consumer, it can not all be financed by only opticians and optometrists.

    Right or wrong , fair or not , that consequence has to start someplace . that someplace must be as politically embarassing as election irregularities on any or all levels of bureacracy .

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    I agree totally. Another point, I don't always set the decentration the same as the monocular PD, the patient may have a posture that requires repositioning, prism will influence the decentration by about 1mm/4pd , online don't ask for heights, there is so much more to dispensing than a cheap piece of plastic and 2 screws, well that's what CC sells, hey an Ipad should cost about $10 for the materials (if that) by that analogy. Eyeglasses are hi technology medical devices, let's not forget their primary purpose.

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    What we are forgetting is this :

    We have to have back bone and stand up for ourselves.
    We have to push back .
    We have to refuse to accept any more BS about working for Free .
    We have to stop election irregularities in our industry .
    We have to make our governing bodies accountable or fire each one of them.
    We have to stop financing organisations that do not do what they are supposed to.
    We have to brand ourselves and advertise that brand in one united format.
    We have to take charge of our destiny and advertise effectively to counteract the onliners and undo the damage that our Regualtory bodies have been doing while they bury their heads in the sands .

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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    What we are forgetting is this :

    We have to have back bone and stand up for ourselves.
    We have to push back .
    We have to refuse to accept any more BS about working for Free .
    We have to stop election irregularities in our industry .
    We have to make our governing bodies accountable or fire each one of them.
    We have to stop financing organisations that do not do what they are supposed to.
    We have to brand ourselves and advertise that brand in one united format.
    We have to take charge of our destiny and advertise effectively to counteract the onliners and undo the damage that our Regualtory bodies have been doing while they bury their heads in the sands .

    Could this http://www.ccepro.org/ be a part of what you propose ??

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    Redhot Jumper

    I believe if ECPs would not have refused to take PDs for a fee it might not have come to this. Just more trouble.

    Better start making up a fee schedule and post it in office or store and don;t refuse giving service for a fee, or other provinces might join the BC government.
    If nothing happens you can always go back to whatever you did before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    I believe if ECPs would not have refused to take PDs for a fee it might not have come to this. Just more trouble.

    Better start making up a fee schedule and post it in office or store and don;t refuse giving service for a fee, or other provinces might join the BC government.
    If nothing happens you can always go back to whatever you did before.

    Chris

    So why don't we all give free pd's then use our computers to help our "customers" buy online right from the convenience of our stores? Now wouldn't that be customer service?


    Regards,
    Golfnorth

    P.S. I agree with Dr. Shaw that if you want to be a do-it-yourselfer then take your own pd and
    good luck. If you want the involvement of a liscenced optical professional then buy from
    a bricks and morter store.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post

    Chris
    So why don't we all give free pd's then use our computers to help our "customers" buy online right from the convenience of our stores? Now wouldn't that be customer service?


    Golfnorth.................I am still at golf south and I have never said that you should do it for free. I have been posting many times that optical services should be given at a charge if glasses are going to be purchased on-line or else where.

    Why should opticians give anything free if a consumer wants to use his expirence and knowdlege. I have said many times over that mechanics, plumbers , barbers and many more charge for the time worked plus cost of materials. Why not apply that system in a B&M store ?

    The consumer who sets his mind to buy cheap on-line gets only a semi-finished unchecked product so he needs some afterservice. so charge em.

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    Boncular PDs that are a part of a clients record are cherrfully offered up at no charge. New Mono PDs are $20.00. I'm surpried to see Dr. Shaw state that PDs have nothing to do with eyehealth, yet his lens optimization lies in large part on toying with them in many cases.

    Mmmmmm.

    B

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    I think that I was mis-understood,

    What I meant by that was that PD is very important but not relevant unless a spectacle correction is required, the eye examination fee schedule includes an assessment and diagnosis of many components of eye health. IMO pd is best left off the prescription and left to the expertise of the dispenser.

    Pd is a subsequent part of the prescription, it may be useful in the eye exam to determine the effectiveness of the presenting Rx.

    I strongly believe that the PD measurement must be left to the optician or optometrists that is going to be responsible for the effective application of the lenses. I never include PD on an Rx because it would circumvent the responsibility of the dispenser. In Ontario all dispensers must be licensed . CC is restricted from advertising here.

    Decentation of lenses does not always coincide with measured PD. Working distance, prism, face form, dynamic magnification all require adjustment to ensure alignment of the MRP. The PD never changes BUT when prism or face form is included in the lens design the decentration of lenses must take into consideration ray path deviation, the cosine law of the dihedral angle and the ocular rotation due to the prescribed prism.


    PD as part of a "health assessment" from a medical standpoint. The PD should be left to the dispenser as part of the responsibility of the dispenser. The only reason that BC wants to include PD is to enable online dispensing as BC is the only juristiction that does not require a valid Rx to fill a prescription for eyeglasses or contact lenses. If the PD is on the Rx it onlyt ensures that the patient has easier access to eyeglasses without the expertise of an optician or optometrist.

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    Peter , you said " [...... In Ontario all dispensers must be licensed . CC is restricted from advertising here. ....] "

    Is this restriction something new ? As far as I know they still advertise on TV and all over Ontario internets and in the back of taxicabs in downtown Toronto . What leads you to believe they are restricted from advertising in Ontario ?

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    Dear I dispense

    They keep doing it until they get a court order from the College of Opticians of Ontario (its in the HDA) to cease and desist, they pay the fine, its like a business tax. Hard to police the internet but CC hasn't been a threat in my practice and they lost $8 million last year on sales of about $200 million.

    First it was the TTC, then TV then ???

    They are kinda like Berguez they think that they are above the law, it only hurts the real professionals who pay their dues (and taxes)

    Cheers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter J Shaw OD View Post
    Dear I dispense

    ...CC hasn't been a threat in my practice and they lost $8 million last year on sales of about $200 million.
    They say they have 10% of the domestic market and sell 1 out of every 5 contact lenses. http://natpo.st/Hegldw

    They have also posted record earnings and a 63% increase in eyeglass sales. http://bit.ly/HUeJC0

    I'm not trying to be Chicken Little and scream "The sky is falling!" but you really don't think that has impacted your business?

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    C.C. unit "sales" maybe growing but so far the profitability is not there, according to the financial statements that are online.
    Alot of the "sales" are give-aways..."this weekend we're giving away 10K pairs of glasses just pay the shipping" etc. They can report a weekend of $100K sales if they move 10K specs at $10 for shipping. But what was the profit margin? How much did all thay advertising cost? What was the cost of the product?

    The longer they give away glasses to the consumer the more they devalue their/our product. Either the consumer gets a pair that works and is happy or they get crap.
    The happy person is taken out of the market for 2-3yrs. It's is unlikey that the majority will be buying multiple pairs so any hoped for profits through multi pair sales are unlikely (especially in a bad economy).
    The unhappy person dismisses the cheap pair of glasses they got as useless. Good for the B&M's (Brick & Mortar)
    But 2 years down the road how will C.C. convince someone, who got the glasses for "free", to pay more for a pair? Or does the consumer who got lucky and got a pair they were happy with juts wait for the next big sale/give-away.
    The consumer knows they are sacrificing service when they go online. Right now alot feel they dont need service or it should not come with a fee. When they service they want a person not the online retailer.Gradually the public will be conditoned to the idea that service costs and they will miss the level of service we (B&M's) provide. Takes time and lost sales though!

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    They keep doing it until they get a court order from the College of Opticians of Ontario (its in the HDA) to cease and desist, they pay the fine, its like a business tax. Hard to police the internet but CC hasn't been a threat in my practice and they lost $8 million last year on sales of about $200 million.

    I must not have taken my smart pills this morning , what is the HDA ? has therer actually been a cease and desist order ? Have they actually been fined ?

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    Health Disciplines act now caled the RHPA Regulated Health Professions Act

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    So how much is the fine ?

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    lost 4 patients to coastal, (2 are parents of one of their VP's) the other 2 came back. I use customized eyeglass designs that are impossible for the patient to obtain from mass market retailers. Binocular vision requirements are integrated into the lens design to manage or eliminate prismatic effect associated with face form and/0r anisometropia. Patients visit optometrists primarily to see better and sustain eye health, the promise of saving money can be over-shadowed by a promise of better functional vision.
    Last edited by Peter J Shaw OD; 04-04-2012 at 09:02 AM.

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