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Thread: Opticianry Summit?

  1. #101
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Gold Supporter Judy Canty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I think education is the wrong way to go. Seriously.

    1. You have to convince a school to carry a program (read: they need to make money on this)
    2. You have to develop a faculty
    3. You have to develop a curriculum
    4. You have to attract students
    5. Students need promise of financial reward before shelling out their educational bucks.
    6. Most difficult, you must legislate a need for yourselves into existence.


    Now, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?


    You need to make the position profitable first, then go from there.


    For cryin' out loud, even optometry's domain is being deregulated. The only hope we have is being desirable to the consumer.


    Keep it real, my brothers.
    Yeah, let's keep Opticians the equivalent of "barefoot and pregnant". Gimme a break, excellent programs are already in place and have been for a very long time. The real issue is whether employers are willing to adequately compensate college-educated Opticians. The dispensary accounts for more than 60% of a practices' income, yet ECP's regularly entrust it to the least educated person available. Now, before you all get up on your hind legs, I am in practices all over my territory and I deal with that reality every day.
    Peace out.

  2. #102
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    Now you are mocking me and I had such respect for Johns . Where is Fezz when you need him ?

    Wes, Barry ,Warren , Ted ,Chris can you help me out here ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Johns View Post
    No...you know I'm not mocking you! I'm trying to make the point that a brand has to be more than a catchy name or phrase. If it has no integrity, even if people know it, and know it well, then it has no value. In our case, I believe that the way to add value to what we do (under any name), is to back it with education.

    We are all on the same team, and I really appreciate the opportunity for this discussion.
    Sorry, Have to agree with Johns.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousCat View Post
    Yeah, let's keep Opticians the equivalent of "barefoot and pregnant". Gimme a break, excellent programs are already in place and have been for a very long time. The real issue is whether employers are willing to adequately compensate college-educated Opticians. The dispensary accounts for more than 60% of a practices' income, yet ECP's regularly entrust it to the least educated person available. Now, before you all get up on your hind legs, I am in practices all over my territory and I deal with that reality every day.
    Peace out.
    1+

    You couldn't have said it better when you said something like "there's no such thing as a licensed optometrist". This really hit home for me.

    We have to have a common denominator, and it has to be education.

  4. #104
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    Optilady,Wes, Johns, Warren, I agree with all of you on education. There is no dispute on that. I only disagree with how to promote it. If your techniques worked or were working then you would already have all of the States unified, but you don't .

    That means thre is something wrong with the promotion marketing end.

  5. #105
    Master OptiBoarder RIMLESS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    I think education is the wrong way to go. Seriously.

    1. You have to convince a school to carry a program (read: they need to make money on this)
    2. You have to develop a faculty
    3. You have to develop a curriculum
    4. You have to attract students
    5. Students need promise of financial reward before shelling out their educational bucks.
    6. Most difficult, you must legislate a need for yourselves into existence.


    Now, which comes first, the chicken or the egg?


    You need to make the position profitable first, then go from there.


    For cryin' out loud, even optometry's domain is being deregulated. The only hope we have is being desirable to the consumer.


    Keep it real, my brothers.
    But Drk think about this. If optometry didn't edumacate itself than we'd still be opticians.
    90% of everything is crap...except for crap, because crap is 100% crap

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    Optilady,Wes, Johns, Warren, I agree with all of you on education. There is no dispute on that. I only disagree with how to promote it. If your techniques worked or were working then you would already have all of the States unified, but you don't .

    That means thre is something wrong with the promotion marketing end.

    I didn't say I had an answer, it's just my opinion. How does any career get next generation's work force enticed into it? It's seems like we were all either born into this job, or fell into it and beaten into submission to stay in it. I'm lucky, Connecticut has an EXCELLENT school, with teachers dedicated to keeping opticians in this state as educated as possible.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by optilady1 View Post
    I didn't say I had an answer, it's just my opinion. How does any career get next generation's work force enticed into it? It's seems like we were all either born into this job, or fell into it and beaten into submission to stay in it. I'm lucky, Connecticut has an EXCELLENT school, with teachers dedicated to keeping opticians in this state as educated as possible.

    So then why would a person that believes in education not believe in seeking the help of education itself ?


    There are educators in the field of marketing . and you are blind to them. You still think you can do it without them .


    How has that been going for you over the past 30 years ?

  8. #108
    OptiBoardaholic
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    I believe that anyone can go, all you have to do is ask. Also, isn't it better to do something, than sit around and do nothing?
    This is a time of change, and whether you want to change, adapt, better oneself is a personal decision that only you can make.
    Between the AOA, OAA and luxottica synergetic 'Sun Alliance' group, the VCA free education and apps, the OneSight between Essilor and Luxottica (primary donators) and now the Summitt, each of these groups are bringing great resources and ideas to help the ECP become more successful . Isn't that a good thing?

  9. #109
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    So then why would a person that believes in education not believe in seeking the help of education itself ?


    There are educators in the field of marketing . and you are blind to them. You still think you can do it without them .


    How has that been going for you over the past 30 years ?
    Shall we assume you (idispense) mean the collective "YOU" as in all US opticians, or are you asking only Annie, who is probably around 30 years old?
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  10. #110
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Now I See's Avatar
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    Personally, I think part of the problem is all the arguing we do amongst ourselves.

    I'm a Licensed Optician, I got my license by going through our state's apprenticeship program that included 17 hours of classes at the local community college. I get bashed because I did it that way. I can't join certain groups because I don't have a paper that says I have graduated from a college. Never mind that I have 92+ hrs toward a Psychology degree, my ABOC, NCLEC and a certificate that says I did what was required of me to EARN my license. I see Opticians on O'Board that have moved from dispensing to lab/other optical fields, and they get bashed too, seemingly because they aren't dispensing any longer. So do people who live in states that don't require licensing...what are they supposed to do? They live in a state that doesn't recognize licensing.

    So here's the breakdown as I see it...
    1. The Licensed Optician - with a 4+ year degree
    2. The Licensed Optician - with a 4 year degree
    3. The Licensed Optician - with a 2 year degree
    4. The Licensed Optician - with an apprenticeship certification
    5. The Licensed Optician - with apprenticeship only, no classes
    6. The Non-Licensed Optician

    Here's the thing....right now we have alternatives as to how we get Licensed....good or bad, that's the way it is! If we can't all get along and move together as a Licensed group and maybe (as idispense said) advertise ourselves as a Licensed Group, how in the heck are we going to get anyone else to listen to us?????
    ___________________________________________

  11. #111
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Big Smile Congratulations Harry..................now you can live the live of the retired......

    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson View Post

    Co-incidendly this occurs on the day I retire from business! Which I did this morning very unceremoniously. YAHOOOOOOOOO!




    Congratulations Harry..................now you can live the live of the retired, nibbling at the fruits of your saved fortune and see the hours, days, month's and years flying by faster and faster not slowing down for a minute.

  12. #112
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=opticalcathy;417754]I believe that anyone can go, all you have to do is ask. QUOTE]

    If you have received an invitation to attend, please register here.

    The Summit is invitation only.
    As stated in an earlier post, " it is indeed invitation only, because of limited space and the need to keep the discussion group size manageable."
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  13. #113
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Now I See View Post
    Personally, I think part of the problem is all the arguing we do amongst ourselves.

    I'm a Licensed Optician, I got my license by going through our state's apprenticeship program that included 17 hours of classes at the local community college. I get bashed because I did it that way. I can't join certain groups because I don't have a paper that says I have graduated from a college. Never mind that I have 92+ hrs toward a Psychology degree, my ABOC, NCLEC and a certificate that says I did what was required of me to EARN my license. I see Opticians on O'Board that have moved from dispensing to lab/other optical fields, and they get bashed too, seemingly because they aren't dispensing any longer. So do people who live in states that don't require licensing...what are they supposed to do? They live in a state that doesn't recognize licensing.

    So here's the breakdown as I see it...
    1. The Licensed Optician - with a 4+ year degree
    2. The Licensed Optician - with a 4 year degree
    3. The Licensed Optician - with a 2 year degree
    4. The Licensed Optician - with an apprenticeship certification
    5. The Licensed Optician - with apprenticeship only, no classes
    6. The Non-Licensed Optician

    Here's the thing....right now we have alternatives as to how we get Licensed....good or bad, that's the way it is! If we can't all get along and move together as a Licensed group and maybe (as idispense said) advertise ourselves as a Licensed Group, how in the heck are we going to get anyone else to listen to us?????
    Bashing, or lively discussion? I prefer to look at as the latter, because it allows me to change my opinions, and become more informed, as opposed to getting my feelings hurt.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  14. #114
    Manuf. Lens Surface Treatments
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    Sorry for having interrupted.............................

    Sorry for having interrupted the discussion with above post, I just now saw Harry,s remark, and had to answer it. He does merit a remark to an important point in life.

  15. #115
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Ryser View Post
    Sorry for having interrupted the discussion with above post, I just now saw Harry,s remark, and had to answer it. He does merit a remark to an important point in life.
    Agreed, so start a "Congratulations Harry Jilson, on your retirement!" thread, instead of hijacking this one.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  16. #116
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Now I See's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    Bashing, or lively discussion? I prefer to look at as the latter, because it allows me to change my opinions, and become more informed, as opposed to getting my feelings hurt.
    Wes, I have much respect for you. We can go round and round on this all day long, glass is half full, glass is half empty. Some of these conversations I do not find "lively" Some of them are downright degrading. When we were all together, i.e. Un-Expo, I never found any of those conversations degrading or mean-spirited, they were all civil and well thought out. I understand we need more/better education for all, but what I see is a big mess of Licensed people arguing over who has the better license. I just don't see how we can be heard above all the noise we are making within our own group.
    ___________________________________________

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcjilson View Post
    Co-incidently this occurs on the day I retire from business! Which I did this morning very unceremoniously. YAHOOOOOOOOO!
    Contratulations!

  18. #118
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    I had a long discussion the other day with someone involved in professional opticianry testing. The discussion centered around the difficulty in even creating an acceptable exam to test competency. Why is this so hard, you ask? Because no one can really say what an optician even is! There is no recognized standard from one locale to the next, or even in the same locale. I am a licensed optician. So is the dip**** next to me who barely passed the NOCE, ran off to another state where that was the only requirement and got a license there, came back here and was granted a license based on the previous license, and now proceeds to give everyone a bad name. Standardized testing is based on industry standards. We don't have one. The standard deviation on a given opticianry exam is higher that that in any other professional field, and it's precisely because we have a situation where Annie and Harry Chilinguerian are taking the same test as two dunces off the street. So yes, I believe a discussion on "whose license/certification/credential is better" is warranted.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCspecs View Post
    It was only after I learned about all of the cool science behind optics that I was hooked- otherwise who knows what I might be doing today.

    I think there is something to be said for a hybrid apprenticeship that includes a formal education.
    I agree. There have been enormous problems with Apprentice programs in the past that Warren and Roy have both pointed out, and they are sadly correct. I advocate a dual approach where we promote both a formalized structured Apprenticeship, and higher education. With the same test taken by both at the end.

    Attorneys did the same for years, you could Apprentice to become an attorney (you still can in a few states). As the Bar exam became harder education became more important. But this allowed Apprenticed and Educated Attorneys to live and exist on the same playing field, there was no discrimination in the market.

    Many people see those as competing goals, I do not. They are necessary for each other. Without a healthy Apprenticeship all the talk of formal education will have a mill stone around its neck, IMHO.

    We cannot talk about education in a future tense, until we education Opticians in the present tense.

  20. #120
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Now I See's Avatar
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    I think the better discussion is what are WE going to do about it. We are all Licensed (or want to be) what can WE do as a GROUP to make things better. Are we getting involved? Are we on our state board? Are we voicing our opinion on surveys? Are we involved with our state association?

    Don't misunderstand, I'm not going all Kumbaya over here, I realize there is going to be some "lively discussion." (And there should be.) I just wonder why, it seems, some are focusing on whose got the better credentials? Why argue about the Opticianry Summit? Why not see what happens and learn from it?
    ___________________________________________

  21. #121
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    OK: Let's start by agreeing that CONTACT LENS skills have NOTHING to do with Dispensing. Sure, an understanding of anatomy,the cornea and VD compensation is important. But knowing how to fit a soft lens is NOT useful at the dispensing desk. Awareness, yes. Mastery and certification, no.

    B

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    Shall we assume you (idispense) mean the collective "YOU" as in all US opticians, or are you asking only Annie, who is probably around 30 years old?

    Yes , thank you Wes, I do mean the non-gender specific, politically correct, collective you

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wes View Post
    I had a long discussion the other day with someone involved in professional opticianry testing. The discussion centered around the difficulty in even creating an acceptable exam to test competency. Why is this so hard, you ask? Because no one can really say what an optician even is! There is no recognized standard from one locale to the next, or even in the same locale. I am a licensed optician. So is the dip**** next to me who barely passed the NOCE, ran off to another state where that was the only requirement and got a license there, came back here and was granted a license based on the previous license, and now proceeds to give everyone a bad name. Standardized testing is based on industry standards. We don't have one. The standard deviation on a given opticianry exam is higher that that in any other professional field, and it's precisely because we have a situation where Annie and Harry Chilinguerian are taking the same test as two dunces off the street. So yes, I believe a discussion on "whose license/certification/credential is better" is warranted.


    AH HA ! So you (individualized 'you" this time not the collective one) are coming around to my point of view that we need the Brand to specify the requirements to use the trademarked name "optician" or whatever name . Those requirements will be education and standards for exams .

    I knew from your picture that you had extreme intellignce and only a small stubborn streak. Now we can go to work on the rest of these guys and gals.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry Santini View Post
    OK: Let's start by agreeing that CONTACT LENS skills have NOTHING to do with Dispensing. Sure, an understanding of anatomy,the cornea and VD compensation is important. But knowing how to fit a soft lens is NOT useful at the dispensing desk. Awareness, yes. Mastery and certification, no.

    B
    Contact Lenses are a part of the history of Opticianry, and the majority of my study population (70%) feel we need to be more heaviliy involved in fitting them. We need to include contact lens training in the education of every Optician. I know, I know, some states do not allow it, and rightfully so. Why would they when the vast majority of Opticians do not even know about basic optics. We must educate the then move forward (or return in the case of CL) to new areas of practice.

    I need to make one correction. I was informed by a knowledgeable source that Optometry would be represented at this meeting. I am told by this same source that he was incorrect. It will be the corporates, like Four Eyes, and some others who see Opticians as nothing more than sales clerks. This should be a fun one, but according to Barry, I guess that is all we need.

    Sorry for any confusion.

  25. #125
    Master OptiBoarder OptiBoard Silver Supporter Barry Santini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmcdonald View Post
    Contact Lenses are a part of the history of Opticianry, and the majority of my study population (70%) feel we need to be more heaviliy involved in fitting them. We need to include contact lens training in the education of every Optician. I know, I know, some states do not allow it, and rightfully so. Why would they when the vast majority of Opticians do not even know about basic optics. We must educate the then move forward (or return in the case of CL) to new areas of practice.

    I need to make one correction. I was informed by a knowledgeable source that Optometry would be represented at this meeting. I am told by this same source that he was incorrect. It will be the corporates, like Four Eyes, and some others who see Opticians as nothing more than sales clerks. This should be a fun one, but according to Barry, I guess that is all we need.

    Sorry for any confusion.
    Dr. Warren:

    I've never said "...that's all we need." I think that's your summation of the points I've tried to make. Rather, I think we need much more stringent standards, but not the SOS we were taught 40 years ago. There is NOTHING, in my humble opinion, to be of benefit to regular eyeglass dispensing from understanding the fit of CLs. There is, however, much about anatomy, optics and optical symptoms that is traditionally covered in CL work that needs to be moved to the dispensing currculum.

    B
    Last edited by Barry Santini; 03-29-2012 at 04:52 PM.

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