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Thread: Regulatory bodies fail

  1. #1
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    Regulatory bodies fail

    Interesting that SpecSavers can win against A Google Keyword advertsing campaign but our Regulatory bodies and associations want us to acceptthat it can't be done .

    Why is it that nothing seems to be black and white but shades of red and yellow ?


    When Regulatory bodies fail to do their jobs they in fact promote illegal dispensing without licenses. How can they do that when they tell us that their mandate is to protect the public ?


    SpecSavers was able to obtain a succesful action against an online vendor who was using Google's Keywords and AD WORDS http://www.smartcompany.com.au/retai...vertising.html

    It's funny how illegal pharmnacy ads were stopped when they used Google AD Words and that resulted in a 500 million dollar fine, BUT our regulators and associations would prefer us to believe that illegal advertising can't be stopped because no one can control the internet and yet other companies and other regulatory bodies are doing what ours say can't be done .


    What's the problem with our Regulatory bodies ? Why can't they do the same ? Is it that they do not want to ?

    Maybe we need some grass roots legal help from the talented and self taught Mr B. ? He has a knack for getting the job done when everyone else gives up before they even start.

    Maybe the money we spend on legals is going to the wrong place ? Maybe we should spend our legal money with the people who win against our regulatory body ?

    This really should be a black and white matter. We have laws that say you can only dispense eyeglasses if you are an optician or optometrist. Those are our local applicable laws and those laws are being violated .

    What's the matter here ? This does not make sense that our regulatory bodies should go unchallenged when others are winning these issues ?


    It is a simple matter that even has precedence. We should be able to win this easily and stop the sale of online glasses .


    Why have they not done it ?


    Black and white or shades of red and yellow ? Our local laws seem clear on the matter . Whats the holdup ?
    Last edited by idispense; 02-21-2012 at 09:29 AM.

  2. #2
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    I absolutely agree. Bloody Coastal Contacts and the provincial minister from BC who opened this can of worms. I would like to know more about the political contributions that were paid to the NDP by Coastal Contacts. They are now spreading like a VIRUS uncontrolled.If the drug industry has managed to curb online sales....so should the regulators of our industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike.elmes View Post
    I absolutely agree. Bloody Coastal Contacts and the provincial minister from BC who opened this can of worms. I would like to know more about the political contributions that were paid to the NDP by Coastal Contacts. They are now spreading like a VIRUS uncontrolled.If the drug industry has managed to curb online sales....so should the regulators of our industry.
    What is your Alberta College doing about it ? Are they going to do anything or continue sitting and do nothing while they collect fees from you ?

    Have they said anything about it being illegal in your province ?

    This is not just a matter of political contributions, this is also a matter of regulators doing nothing , which means that the regulators are helping illegal dispensing while they spend your money. They are supposed to warn and protect the public , are they ? If they are not doing anything then they are part of the problem. They will only be part of the solution when we all complain loudly and show up at the meetings and refuse to let them get away with this .

    Regulators by doing nothing are working against you with your money .

    Read up on the way to file complaints with Google against the illegal use of Ad Words. When you read this and see how Scotland Yard has used it and how the pharmacy ads were stopped then you will realize we can stop it .

    They are choosing not to ... and licensed opticians and their investment in education will be the losers .

    Regulators chose to stifle us with stupid "governance rules" which are designed to control the release of information and stop us from asking questions . Governance gives them the means to proclaim accountability and transparency
    while they stifle us and go about their merry way .

    Get your optical buddies together and have an informal dinner get together and all of you read how this has been stopped before . Then bring pressure to bear. Easiset way to get regulators attention is cut off their cash flow. and let them feel your financial pain .

  4. #4
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    We are a self regulating profession and one of the premises of that is that we are entitled as members to have a say in what happens and the direction that we steer in . So far in the last 10 years , maybe more , we have been cut off from our leaders by our leaders and not allowed to ask questions. We need a non-confidence vote at any College that is not pursuing illegal dispensing . We need to sweep our Colleges clean and install people at the top that will get the job done . It can be done, but it is up to us to sweep out the dead wood that is not living up to the mandate of protecting the public with transparency and accountability. We might also have to sweep staff as well as Ministers .

    As a self regulating profession it is encumbent upon the members to ensure that the Colleges run properly.


    What is your associations stance ? Are they pursung Google and the illegal use of Ad Words to advertise product that is against your Opticians Act ? Are they pursuing TV and Radio media that advertise these products in your province if it is contrary to your Provincial laws ? What aboutthe spokesmen for these products , do they realise they may be encouraging the public to purchase goods that are subject to controlled acts ?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    We are a self regulating profession and one of the premises of that is that we are entitled as members to have a say in what happens and the direction that we steer in . So far in the last 10 years , maybe more , we have been cut off from our leaders by our leaders and not allowed to ask questions. We need a non-confidence vote at any College that is not pursuing illegal dispensing . We need to sweep our Colleges clean and install people at the top that will get the job done . It can be done, but it is up to us to sweep out the dead wood that is not living up to the mandate of protecting the public with transparency and accountability. We might also have to sweep staff as well as Ministers .

    As a self regulating profession it is encumbent upon the members to ensure that the Colleges run properly.


    What is your associations stance ? Are they pursung Google and the illegal use of Ad Words to advertise product that is against your Opticians Act ? Are they pursuing TV and Radio media that advertise these products in your province if it is contrary to your Provincial laws ? What aboutthe spokesmen for these products , do they realise they may be encouraging the public to purchase goods that are subject to controlled acts ?
    I think you may be misinformed. We can ask questions at any College meeting. To avoid "ambushing" our College respectfully asks that your questions be sent in ahead of time. To say that we cannot ask questions I believe is incorrect. So if I've read your post correctly you would get rid of anyone at the College or a Minister in government if they do not share the same point of view on this subject as you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post
    I think you may be misinformed. We can ask questions at any College meeting. To avoid "ambushing" our College respectfully asks that your questions be sent in ahead of time. To say that we cannot ask questions I believe is incorrect. So if I've read your post correctly you would get rid of anyone at the College or a Minister in government if they do not share the same point of view on this subject as you?

    And what you are saying is they will not alllow any question at a meeting you are in attendance at without prior written approval, which by definition of the word "prior" means that your question is posed in writing previous to the meeting occuring which means you are definitely censored which means that they can not stand scrutiny which in itself means there is no accountability and no transparency.

    I think your own statement indicates the validity of my claim that they will not allow questions at a meeting. You said it ... they want questions in writing prior to any public meeting not at or during public meetings. They have a need to screen everything .

    Now if everything is above board then why do they need this level of censorship?

    We are only talking here about the question part , there is the other part to a question .... the answers .


    Are you happy with the FREE internet glasses being dispensed and advertised in Ontario ? Are you in opposition to it being brought into alignment with Ontario's Opticianry Act and the RHPA ? OR would you prefer Opticians to be FREE slaves to internet vendors who are not licensed and trained ?

    Who is responsible for administering the RHPA and the Opticianry Act in Ontario ? DO you think these people are above the law and should not have to enforce the laws they are paid to enforce and the laws they create ?


    Why should they stand protected behind censorship ?
    Last edited by idispense; 02-23-2012 at 08:15 AM.

  7. #7
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    We are a self regulating profession. We elect other members amongst us to form a council to protect the public and administer the Opticianry Act in accordance with the RHPA . Our Provincial government appoints public members to ensure the publics stake in the Opticianry Act and the RHPA . Further to that the MOH overlooks us . Now the Council hires staff to run things on a day to day basis.

    Let's get this part straight , we employ them to get the job done in accordance with the regulations. They do not employ us . We are the ultimate bosses . You and I and the rest of the membership pay the bills . We pay their wages . We can fire them . We employ them to report to us with openess , honesty and integrity, accountability and transparency . We do not employ them to censor us .

    Why would bosses allow their employees to censor the boss ?

    It is not a matter of someone agreeing or not with my opinion , it is a matter of whether the RHPA and Opticianry Act are being followed .



    Get this straight and think about it :

    Are the internet vendors dispensing into Ontario while not being licensed opticians or optometrists in Ontario ?

    Who's job is it to enforce those rules ? Are they being enforced ? What do you do with employees who refuse to do their job ? Normally you fire them .


    Do you remember the e-health scandal ? Who got fired ? Was it not The Minister of Health ? So if it works this way for the Government of the Province of Ontario then why would it not work the same way for the Members of the College ? Are we not as good as the government ? Is there a lesser set of rules that applies to us as members of a self governing profession ?


    Are you following the ORNGE affair in the newspaper ? Do you think a Minister could lose her job over that ?


    If
    Last edited by idispense; 02-23-2012 at 08:53 AM.

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    Maybe one should find out if "Coastal" has a kick-back department

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    The problem with censorship is where does it start stop and end ? If mere questions are censored then what about the answers, are they censored as well ?

    What about the election process ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post
    I think you may be misinformed. We can ask questions at any College meeting. To avoid "ambushing" our College respectfully asks that your questions be sent in ahead of time. To say that we cannot ask questions I believe is incorrect. So if I've read your post correctly you would get rid of anyone at the College or a Minister in government if they do not share the same point of view on this subject as you?
    Golfnorth:

    On the one hand you say "We can ask questions at any College meeting." but on the other hand you say " our College respectfully asks that your questions be sent in ahead of time" . Sent in ahead of time implies mailing in the questions in advance of the meeting . That implies that you indeed can NOT ask questions at any meeting .

    These two statements are in conflict with each other . What is it that you do mean ?

    Can you ask questions at any meeting or can you not ?

  11. #11
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    I would submit to you that questions are not being censored. Let's say that I have a question and we don't have to send them it ahead of time. I get to the meeting driving an hour to get there. I sit through the meeting and ask the question at the allotted time. It's a question that needs some research or that the person answering needs to verify some data as they can't recite it from memory. It's in these situations that the current system is geared. I don't know anything of the censorship that you speak of. I'm sure that all of us would like to know if an optician who submitted a question ahead of a meeting was refused the opportunity to ask it.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

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    The recurring issue here is how regulations are enforced. Colleges can only regulate their members. CBC recently did an expose on unregulated use of Botox. The College of Physicians were asked and they also said they cannot regulate someone who is not a physician. It may be our jobs to advise police and/or gorvernments about acts that contravene the HRPA, but beyond that, they cannot enforce a "civilian". It is frustrating for all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    Golfnorth:

    On the one hand you say "We can ask questions at any College meeting." but on the other hand you say " our College respectfully asks that your questions be sent in ahead of time" . Sent in ahead of time implies mailing in the questions in advance of the meeting . That implies that you indeed can NOT ask questions at any meeting .

    These two statements are in conflict with each other . What is it that you do mean ?

    Can you ask questions at any meeting or can you not ?
    I stand by my original post. You may ask a question at a College meeting provided that it be sent in ahead of time.
    Which question can you ask? The question that you sent in ahead of time!
    If you are unclear just re-read the two lines above this sentence.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth

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    So, where where was I?

    As long as associations/regulators are being sponsored and/or receiving 'donations' from the same company(s) supplying and supporting internet sellers, nothing will get done.

    Never bite the hand that feeds you.

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    Perhaps we need to tackle this problem ourselves. I would suggest that we start a nation wide on-line petition explaining our argument. Hopefully we can obtain several thousand signatures from all licensed ophthalmic professionals. Once completed we present this to all regulatory and governing bodies. This might be our best chance of receiving a positive reply to our concerns. Do we have a tech savvy word smith that can put this together............ any volunteers?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golfnorth View Post
    I stand by my original post. You may ask a question at a College meeting provided that it be sent in ahead of time.
    Which question can you ask? The question that you sent in ahead of time!
    If you are unclear just re-read the two lines above this sentence.

    Regards,
    Golfnorth
    So if you send in a question ahead of a meeting you can now ask that same question and only that question at a meeeting . Now why would you drive to a meeting to stand up and ask the question you have already sent in ? Wouldn't they just send you the answer ? There would be no point of attending the meeting to hear the answer verbally.

    Assuming that they verbally gave you the answer at the meeting after repeating it verbally you may now need further clarification on the same topic but that would in itself require a question to be phrased and that question would now require another letter to be sent in ahead of time and the correspondiong answer to be delivered at yet another meeting .

    This is the censorship of which I spoke. There is no other way to look at this .

    This is definitely not the accountability and transparency of which they proclaim. This is pure censorship designed to stifle and cut off members.

  17. #17
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    At what point in a meeting can a member or an attending public person ask the previously sent in question ? Is there a set time durting the meeting for questions ? There used to be . Can you quote the bylaw or regulation that deals with the requirement to ask censored questions by prearrangements ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by optical maven View Post
    The recurring issue here is how regulations are enforced. Colleges can only regulate their members. CBC recently did an expose on unregulated use of Botox. The College of Physicians were asked and they also said they cannot regulate someone who is not a physician. It may be our jobs to advise police and/or gorvernments about acts that contravene the HRPA, but beyond that, they cannot enforce a "civilian". It is frustrating for all of us.
    What you are saying Optical Maven is that anyone can dispense eyewear then or do all the same things that an optometrist can do as long as they are not a member of the Colleges of Optometry or the College of Opticians .

    Looking only at the wording of the Opticianry Act of 1991 , I would agree with you Optical Maven in that you could dispense eyewear without being licensed as long as you do not hold yourself out to the public as an "Optician" or variation of the word "optician" . The Opticianry Act of 1991 is a very poorly worded ACt that should have been strengthened . Although the COO promised to do that I believe it was a hollow promise.

    However it really does not matter about the Opticianry ACt because the RHPA over rides the Opticianry Act . RHPA "PROHIBITIONS" section 27 (1) (a) and (b) along with section 27 (2) (9) are very clear, concise and specific and apply to anyone even if they are not a member .http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_91r18_e.htm

    It is very clear that the regulations also apply to non-members.

    Therefore all gatekeepers of the RHPA including the Minister of Health have a clear cut responsibility to uphold the laws as written and foreseen in the RHPA until such time as the law might be changed and the RHPA itself rewritten .

    Therefore it is our job as self governing professionals to insist that our Colleges begin enforcing the laws as written, otherwise we ourselves are criminals in disobeyance.
    Last edited by idispense; 02-23-2012 at 09:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eyemanflying View Post
    So, where where was I?

    As long as associations/regulators are being sponsored and/or receiving 'donations' from the same company(s) supplying and supporting internet sellers, nothing will get done.

    Never bite the hand that feeds you.
    Welcome back, Amigo!
    We thought that we lost you, ..................somewhere up there around Cloud Nine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    At what point in a meeting can a member or an attending public person ask the previously sent in question ? Is there a set time durting the meeting for questions ? There used to be . Can you quote the bylaw or regulation that deals with the requirement to ask censored questions by prearrangements ?
    I would suggest that you invest in a copy of Robert's Rules of Order, or a similar thang!, and read up on meeting formality.....it helps when you know more than the Chairperson about meeting rules. Don't be afraid to rise on a "point of personal privilege", or "point of order"...............and always address the meeting with: Madame, or Mr. Chairman, fellow dispensers, and guests...........LOL. Your formality will often gain wiggle points. Stick to the agenda. Want to discuss something. GET IT ON THE AGENDA!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ex-optician View Post
    Perhaps we need to tackle this problem ourselves. I would suggest that we start a nation wide on-line petition explaining our argument. Hopefully we can obtain several thousand signatures from all licensed ophthalmic professionals. Once completed we present this to all regulatory and governing bodies. This might be our best chance of receiving a positive reply to our concerns. Do we have a tech savvy word smith that can put this together............ any volunteers?

    I suggested a strike last year! No one was listenin.................crickets in the CDN Forum!

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    Whereas, unregulated internet sales of medical devices are becoming available to a increasing percentage of the general public, and because we, as providers of a regulated act of providing eyewear must be vigilant about the public exposure to unregulated dispensing of eyewear to the general public; be it resolved that.........................(insert what you wish your provincial association to do!) ................in order to enforce existing statutes, laws, and regulations of the Province of _______________.

    uncut

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    A strike is a wonderful idea ! Teachers do it . Autoworkers do it . We need to claw back the wages and expenses at the top. They should be rewarded on the basis of accomplished goals that we as members set.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uncut View Post
    Whereas, unregulated internet sales of medical devices are becoming available to a increasing percentage of the general public, and because we, as providers of a regulated act of providing eyewear must be vigilant about the public exposure to unregulated dispensing of eyewear to the general public; be it resolved that.........................(insert what you wish your provincial association to do!) ................in order to enforce existing statutes, laws, and regulations of the Province of _______________.

    uncut
    Ask for the resignation of the Minister of Health to start with . Administration of the RHPA and Colleges starts there does it not ? The upper echelons would have to be blind to not know their own ACT and not be aware of the internet vendors for the past 10 years .

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    Quote Originally Posted by idispense View Post
    So if you send in a question ahead of a meeting you can now ask that same question and only that question at a meeeting . Now why would you drive to a meeting to stand up and ask the question you have already sent in ? Wouldn't they just send you the answer ? There would be no point of attending the meeting to hear the answer verbally.

    Assuming that they verbally gave you the answer at the meeting after repeating it verbally you may now need further clarification on the same topic but that would in itself require a question to be phrased and that question would now require another letter to be sent in ahead of time and the correspondiong answer to be delivered at yet another meeting .

    This is the censorship of which I spoke. There is no other way to look at this .

    This is definitely not the accountability and transparency of which they proclaim. This is pure censorship designed to stifle and cut off members.
    I'm out!

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