We are no longer "their" customer...

**Barry Santini** · 01-30-2012, 03:06 PM

It seems that, to our former "partner/suppliers", *we*, the ecps, are no longer seen as their (primary) customer.

We now have an expiration date.

And it's called "online/direct to consumer vending"

Our suppliers see the "world" as their customer.

With widespread adoption of online acuity screening just around the corner, just how long do you think it will be before online (read: *adequate*) refraction follows.

Then *everything* will be possible to put in your "cart".

Time to start yer thinkin'.....

Errr..discussion.

B

**idispense** · 01-30-2012, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Barry Santini

It seems that, to our former "partner/suppliers", *we*, the ecps, are no longer seen as their (primary) customer.

We now have an expiration date.

And it's called "online/direct to consumer vending"

Our suppliers see the "world" as their customer.

With widespread adoption of online acuity screening just around the corner, just how long do you think it will be before online (read: *adequate*) refraction follows.

Then *everything* will be possible to put in your "cart".

Time to start yer thinkin'.....

Errr..discussion.

B

Barry
Have any of you read this:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug...ement-20110825

and afterwards read this :

http://support.google.com/bin/reques...=lr_legalother

read it, familiarize yourself with it, then if you have any applicable local laws that would be being violated by internet vendors , use this .

Barry and everyone there are avenues open and paths to go down to stop this. Get your fellow opticians together informally outside of associations to have a dinner & together with opticians and optometrist in your town , sit down and each of you read these two items until your understand how Google Ad words is being used to pop those illegal ads onto people's screens .

Then start filling out these forms and insisting that your Regulators and Associations do the same . Fire the ones that won't and stop paying them if you can .

Americans did this once to stop illegal pharmacy ads and Americans can do the same to stop the illegal internet eyeglass vendors.

**EyeCare Rich** · 01-30-2012, 06:35 PM

Funny, when you pull up the first link it has an add for Warby Parker.

**rdcoach5** · 01-30-2012, 08:24 PM

We would have to have a consensus of not only opticians and the other O's , but also the the legislators . So far, we can't even get the opticians to agree that this is wrong. Then and only then can we get the legislators to get in the fray.

**drk** · 01-30-2012, 08:47 PM

Barry, what has made you aware of this fact? We've been saying it.

As to remedy, it's not going to be "market-based". Remember that there is precious little free market left to act in vision care, thanks to VSP and EyeMed. All it will take (and it will happen because it IS happening) is for VSP and EyeMed to race to the death promoting online services to their members.

Think about it: VSP trying to force ODs to provide dispensing services ONLY (for a reasonable sum, at first, soon to be discounted to a pittance), and preferentially pricing Marchon frames and sopping up all the excess capacity of their labs in Columbus and (Sacramento?), cutting out VSP-provider wholesale labs in the process.

If they want to do it, who's to stop them?

In a larger sense, we've consolidated this industry so much that nobody can stop the major players from doing what they want to do, except by a legal recourse, as idispense notes.

But zooming out further, in the fury to reduce "health care costs", regulation and enforcement will go by the wayside as governments turn a blind eye. The professional associations are asleep at the wheel, or worse, are in bed. For now.

Remember, it's not about quality. It's not about price. It's about whether glasses are controlled devices requiring a prescription or not.

**Johns** · 01-30-2012, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Barry, what has made you aware of this fact? We've been saying it.

Over, and over, and over...

And isn't it ironic that the very same companies that so many here sing the praises of ( some sing for fees) that are now eating your lunch?

**Opticianjw** · 01-30-2012, 09:40 PM

Hopefully most of you do not give out the promotional cards from your suppliers to your customers to fill out so they can win gifts. That is the one easy way for suppliers to find out who is using their products and then have their contact information to later direct market to them. I have always thrown away the transition promotioal cards. Do you really think that transition feels a need to give out gift items after someone purchases their product.

**drk** · 01-30-2012, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by Johns

And isn't it ironic that the very same companies that so many here sing the praises of ( some sing for fees) that are now eating your lunch?

Maybe the saying should have been "No one ever went broke underestimating the greed of the American people (business)".

I'm a 99%-er!

(Not really).

Keep trade free and use a little legal oversight and all will be OK. (I hope.)

**Barry Santini** · 01-30-2012, 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Barry, what has made you aware of this fact? We've been saying it.

Heresay from the VICA meeting

As to remedy, it's not going to be "market-based". Remember that there is precious little free market left to act in vision care.
If they want to do it, who's to stop them?
In a larger sense, we've consolidated this industry so much that nobody can stop the major players from doing what they want to do.

This is true. But that is the fault of the FTC, not the ECP.

But zooming out further, in the fury to reduce "health care costs", regulation and enforcement will go by the wayside as governments turn a blind eye. The professional associations are asleep at the wheel, or worse, are in bed. For now.

Agreed.

It's about whether glasses are controlled devices requiring a prescription or not.

If that questioned is framed around harm, I don't think there is a credible, evidenced-based answer that says they should be. Only an emotional one.
if you know of any longterm harm studies and eyewear, I'd like to know.

B

**idispense** · 01-30-2012, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by EyeCare Rich

Funny, when you pull up the first link it has an add for Warby Parker.

and that is exactly what I want you to read about, I want you to sit around a bar and buffet with your buddy opticians and optometrists and ask yourself how that Warby Parker ad got there. When you understand how it got there and how Google Ad Words and Ad sense does this then you will see how we can cure the problem with relative ease.

Google and Kijiji and many other medias all have the same thing in common ... they can not violate local applicable laws .. we just have to work together to stop it and use the 2nd link to file complaints. It would be best if we could all work in unison but lets start with each other going through these links together informaly and discussing . It is not hard to understnad the concepts of how on line marketers advertise. We can stop that advertising and nip them at the knees . They can't survive without cheap advertising. Lets cut it off at the souorvcce just like the pharmacy ads were cut off .
.

**idispense** · 01-30-2012, 10:02 PM

Johns:

Yourself and Fezz are 2 of the most respected posters here . Would the two of you read through all the links you can find similiar to the 1st one I posted above . Then read through the 2nd link which deals with actually filing a complaint with Google , then also consider how the US Attorney General took over in the pharmacy ads to bring about a win situation.

You have arranged unExpo meetings and brought people together with your wisdom. Would you look at these links and comment ?

**racethe1320** · 01-30-2012, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by drk

Think about it: VSP trying to force ODs to provide dispensing services ONLY (for a reasonable sum, at first, soon to be discounted to a pittance), and preferentially pricing Marchon frames and sopping up all the excess capacity of their labs in Columbus and (Sacramento?), cutting out VSP-provider wholesale labs in the process.

I'm not sure I follow you on that first point. What I see is that we work in a business than drives a large portion of its revenue from our dispensaries. If you're still lookiing for increases in fees you may as well give up now as you're obviously not familiar with what drives managed care and the fuding of it. You really want VSP to raise your fees? So, let's play that through and if your VSP exams now pay you $90 per, if I'm Huntington Bank or Chase, both right in your area, why would I go VSP who has to pay you more when I can go EyeMed who you also support and support for far less? You don't think EyeMed is going to use that against VSP and you? Really? That doesn't make sense. You'll sleep with EyeMed for $40 but scoff at VSP for only paying $60. Wow! Go maximize your revenue in your dispensary and if you're so against discounting exams, drop your VSP Panel status and let us know how the Columbus economy is for you in terms of private pay only. Last I checked you're still gladly seeing their patients and cashing managed care checks.

Now in terms of VSP preferencing Altair and Marchon, why the rub? They are supporting themselves just as you would. Do you offer second pair discounts for a patient that buys the first one from me? Does Ford advertise low interest rates on behalf of other banks or Ford Credit? Again, support your own brands and that's what VSP is doing. Pretty simple smart business. Do they not have materials and programs that support you the OD? If your wife worked in your practice and filed for divorce, would you still be in business with her? Then don't speak ill of VSP for giving Aspects what they got.

Now in terms of VSP not supporting their wholesale partner labs. Please show me some examples there. I'd love to continue that conversation.

If they want to do it, who's to stop them?

you and me that's who. you're a panel doc, when was the last time you talked directly with VSP? been to their lab that's 25 minutes from you? visited with their mgt over at Easton? I admit, I see a lot of text, but I've yet to see where you've directly engaged. They listen, but you have to speak up.

Remember, it's not about quality. It's not about price. It's about whether glasses are controlled devices requiring a prescription or not.

There's irony in that statement. It's not quality; it's about control, then your control of price essencially....coming from the same group that is demanding more money for themselves. The same group that is typically the first to say VSP Takes money from them and hates discounts that support the consumer. The same group that supports buying groups and demands greater and greater private pay wholesale discounts. Funny, so now when the consumer says they want their money to go further and vote with their wallets you cry foul? So when the consumers go online and not to you, you blame others.

Hmmm.....see I have a problem with that. It's not about price, it's about value. You can debate it all you want but if a patients walks from you to spend their money elsewhere, it's your fault my friend. They buy when price = value in their minds. Whether they spend it online, at Wal-Mart or go to an onsite clinic vs your door, it's no one else's responsibility but yours to fix it and win them over. Every single day we see people that have VSP benefits and upsell them into much nicer products that are better for everyone both in quality and dollars.

Again, more irony as you want patients 100% directed to your doors only with no other options that don't fall in your favor, but heaven forbid VSP try anything like that with you.

**Patrick888** · 01-31-2012, 03:28 AM

http://www.warbyparker.com/annual-report-2011

Annual report of Warby Parker in 2011.

**Chris Ryser** · 01-31-2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by Johns

Over, and over, and over...

And isn't it ironic that the very same companies that so many here sing the praises of ( some sing for fees) that are now eating your lunch?

........and they have been singing tooooooooooo long already and still are. Anybody with a website that carries ads, can block any type ad by Google you want.

Idispense i admire you for trying, I have been for years to no avail.

**drk** · 01-31-2012, 07:04 AM

Agree that FTC is getting closer to being considered.

Barry, have you heard of amblyopia?

**drk** · 01-31-2012, 07:16 AM

Wow.

1320, my point is that health care is one of several professions that shouldn't operate under normal market principles. You are giving me normal market principles.

If I "engaged" VSP they'd audit me and then fine me or even worse...kick me off their panel.

I'm not bitter, just enslaved at this point.

**Craig** · 01-31-2012, 07:20 AM

i used to throw away the transitions cards we get with every job, but decided to register one to me and see what promotions are sent to me. I won $500.00 on the first one registered- NOT WHO THEY HOPED WOULD WIN- but now we are registering all of them to my store and waiting for them to notice.

IF YOU GIVE THESE TO YOUR CUSTOMER, THEY ARE NO LONGER!

**Fezz** · 01-31-2012, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by Craig

IF YOU GIVE THESE TO YOUR CUSTOMER, THEY ARE NO LONGER!

+1!!!

**drk** · 01-31-2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by racethe1320

I'm not sure I follow you on that first point.

I just mean VSP is powerful enough to do what it wants, unchecked.

I guess you and me that's who. you're a panel doc

Your point is taken, panel docs can "suggest" VSP not steamroll them, and they have listened in the past...somewhat.

when was the last time you talked directly with VSP? been to their lab that's 25 minutes from you? visited with their mgt over at Easton? I admit, I see a lot of text, but I've yet to see where you've directly engaged. They listen, but you have to speak up.

Do you remember that Seinfeld episode where Elaine encourages the older guy at work who is hiding from management to speak up about his great ideas, and when he finally speaks up and says "Divest from everything except (this, that) and T-shirts" and then gets fired? (That was awesome.) I'm that guy!

Huntington Bank or Chase, both right in your area

You'll sleep with EyeMed for $40 but scoff at VSP for only paying $60.

let us know how the Columbus economy is for you in terms of private pay only. Last I checked you're still gladly seeing their patients and cashing managed care checks.

You're in my cash-drawer! You're in my market! You're in my head! (Are you my wife?)

If your wife worked in your practice and filed for divorce, would you still be in business with her?

AGAIN, ARE YOU MY WIFE!?

why would I go VSP who has to pay you more when I can go EyeMed who you also support and support for far less? You don't think EyeMed is going to use that against VSP and you? Really? That doesn't make sense.

I see your fealty to VSP. You must be an older OD*. Or on their payroll.

*Crap. I'm an older OD! Are you an ancient OD?

Seriously, if I could be convinced that VSP was for "private optometry", I could support it. However, the fact is that they kick butt by getting employers and employees to surrender pre-tax dollars year after year and take people "off the market" before I, or anyone else, can get to them. I can't compete. I have to join them, or perish.

Now in terms of VSP preferencing Altair and Marchon, why the rub? They are supporting themselves just as you would.

A chink in your argument's armor. This is evidence of a new, rogue mission. Kind of like them going outside the U.S. to do business. What, VSP is looking out for private practice optometry's interests in foreign countries? They didn't have to go "global" nor buy up large segments of the optical industry. They never needed to build labs, either.

Now in terms of VSP not supporting their wholesale partner labs. Please show me some examples there. I'd love to continue that conversation.

Oops! Did I really just juxtapose that?

support your own brands and that's what VSP is doing.

Oops! VSP's brands?

Again, more irony as you want patients 100% directed to your doors only with no other options that don't fall in your favor, but heaven forbid VSP try anything like that with you.

A great summary statement on your part. This was VSP's original mission, as you seem well-aware. I'm thinking Optometry is to the point where we'd be doing better without them. They're too successful and powerful. I think that's why the AOA (the gang that usually doesn't shoot straight, but is an indicator of optometry's relationship with vision care plans) was in an opposite camp from the NAVCP on Capitol Hill during the health care reform debates (which is a whole 'nother example of my much larger point, but let's not go there or Steve M.'s head will asplode.)

**drk** · 01-31-2012, 08:07 AM

Sorry, opticians, for that digression.

The point is that we have big business of every variety crushing us, both.

Economically.

Politically.

VOTE RON PAUL!

(Totally joking. He's nutty.)

**Barry Santini** · 01-31-2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by drk

Agree that FTC is getting closer to being considered.

Barry, have you heard of amblyopia?

Continue...
B

**drk** · 01-31-2012, 08:14 AM

Kids. Need. Good. Optical. Correction. Or. They. Get. Refractive. Amblyopia.

So, let's exempt kids from online eye wear.

Oh, wait. They're totally freaking unregulated so who are we kidding.

**Barry Santini** · 01-31-2012, 08:28 AM

Kids. need. complete eye exams. in their early years. Glasses are the result, if needed. Not the problem. The solution.

B

**Fezz** · 01-31-2012, 08:31 AM

What. is. going. on. with. the. wacky. sentence. structure. today?

I. am. definitely. a tool. but. not. the sharpest. in the shed. Could. somoene. explain what. is going on here? Maybe. dumb it waaaaaaaaaay. down for me?

Thank. you.