Anyone Else Feel This Way ???

[optilady1]

Agreed...but:

as it is now, a "licensed" medical professional, aka "optician", doesn't learn or isn't exposed to:

1. Fashion
2. Understanding personality(s)
3. Understanding communication through body gesture
4. Understanding basic sales techniques
5. Mastery of fitting skills
6. True sleuthing of eyewear dissatisfaction
7. Improvising on the spot repairs
8. Understanding facial shapes and how to compliment them
9. Handling negotiations
10. Why Rxs go wrong.

I think they would *gladly* hire anyone with these add'l skill sets, in addition to the medical stuff we teach now.

Discussion?

B

We had all these topics discussed and many studied at my optical school program.

[Barry Santini]

We had all these topics discussed and many studied at my optical school program.

Wow!

Yours would be the first that I know of!

B

[Barry Santini]

Anyone notice that 80% of Barry's "qualifications" to do with psychology, and selling. I guess that's what an "optician" does these days.

No that's the problem. That's NOT what an opticians does these days....

but should....it more directly affects the bottom line than ANY medical training they have. BTW, this is, I think, why female "stylists" often prove so worthy in dispensaries.

Unfortunately, one without the other is functionally obsolete today.

B

[Wes]

Wow!

Yours would be the first that I know of!

B

You should talk to Laurie Pierce. A lot has changed since our school-daze!

[Barry Santini]

You should talk to Laurie Pierce. A lot has changed since our school-daze!

I know Laurie has made a point that her school "teaches" these things. But today, what we need is not "exposed to", but "mastery of" , in order to add value to our employment.

B

[Wes]

But how many YEARS of EXPERIENCE did it take for your MASTERY? 40? Get real. No school, no apprenticeship, no simple OJT, and no certification program can confer MASTERY. Quit playing devils advocate. You attended a 2 year opticianry program, did you not? Do you see a better method to train entry level personnel than what I suggest? I don't think so.

The bottom line, and I don't see how anyone can argue, is:

A person trained to be an optician through a formal curriculum will always be more prepared to enter the field than a person who has no training.

Ten or fifteen years later, these same people may be much closer in skill level. However, how many more simple mistakes, optical errors, dissatisfied patients, lost business and public goodwill will the untrained person creat while the "learn on the job"? What patient wants to be the victim of this antiquated form of "training"?

[Barry Santini]

Wes,
What I'm suggesting is that more time is needed for candidates to learn what they need to to be valuable in a dispensary setting. Sure they need experience. But no school, as far as I can see, *can* spend the time necessary to create an enhanced skills set, such as the suggestions I made above. If one agrees the education/certification/licensure is important, then all I'm saying is that, under the present system, we send far too many "opticians" out into the workplace *half-baked*.

Further, so much of what I learned over 40 years was less about learning, but rather unlearning many of the "limits" on what I could reasonably do to help solve my clients vision needs. And also learning to think "outside the box". This can be taught. But it's not.

So much of what I write about in the magazines is my attempt to help make plain the underlying science and aspects of what we do and encounter, in a manner that most people can relate to and integrate into their work lives the very next day. I'd wish I could write even more, but alot of my topics aren't commercially attractive.

Therefore, we have Optiboard, which is the best tool for every optician to learn and be exposed to alot of different viewpoints.

It's education on steroids!

B

[Wes]

Half baked is better than raw. I do get what you're saying though. Are you suggesting a more thorough curriculum? A BS? Maybe a weekend "internship" in dispensaries worked out with the regional schools to facilitate this? I'm just brainstorming here. My point continues to be: the current methods have failed for the most part. How do we make it better?
Barry, you're a smart guy, and one of the most unconventional thinkers here. Wrap your brain around this: if you had to create a national opticianry training program from the ground up, what would it look like? What would service industry needs the best? I maintain formal schooling, perhaps wildly revamped, but formal, nonetheless, and culminating in a recognized degree.
I keep asking, and so far, I get naysayers, complainers, flights of fancy, and you playing devil's advocate while not answering the meat of the question.

We can all see what's wrong. Complaining about it won't fix it. All of the brains here, where are the answers?

[Barry Santini]

I'm not sure we need to reinvent the wheel here. Rather, expand its rolling radius. I'd luv to brainstorm this. Its what the VEE Orba meeting was all about. We'd need someplace to continue the dialogue on an ongoing basis. Let's start with that.

I'm with you, Wes! Maybe, just maybe...LC and E will recognize that their "house" programs are a bust without commensurate pay.



B

[Uilleann]

Then if I comprehend your logic here Wess, you state that the pass/fail rate of the NOCE basic exam is somehow directly correlated to the college/university smarts of the testing field? So in my having taken the test myself years ago, while still in school myself and not yet 'degreed', and after only 3 months on the job with minimal training or prep for the exam, finishing in under twenty minutes and getting a letter back from the ABO a few weeks later stating "above average" in the three main areas tested...that was a mistake on their part? Probably.

Look, no one here is decrying the worth of an education to an individual. I think we all believe that it can better anyone. But to say that a university degree is required to effectively dispense eyewear and contact lenses is a rather silly argument in and of itself. And no - it doesn't take 15-20 years to become extremely adept at dispensing.

We all know oh so well the agenda of the Society for University Schooled Opticians. You're looking for a marketing/branding tool. It's the same premise with buying groups. That's fine. But to say that required university or college degree demands are met before you can call yourself "certified" or "licensed" or "registered" or whatever the term du jour for our esteemed qualifications is easily just as ludicrous as no education or training at all counting for the same. Ever had a bad hair cut from a licensed cosmetologist? How about a less than satisfactory plumbing job completed by a licensed plumber? I've had both, a number of times in fact - and all that "education" clearly wasn't serving them as it was intended.

[kcount]

PM Sent

[Wes]

Brian, I am not really sure why you are so intentionally antagonistic towards so many people on this board, and SAO members specifically. Is it because this isn't turning out the way you wanted? I remember you were on board when we first started talking, but we moved in directions you disapproved of and you've been hostile ever since.

[Uilleann]

Wes, the argument can easily be called flawed from either end of the rope. I will say here loudly and proudly that I am pleased to work in a field shared by incredibly intelligent and talented individuals. And you sir are near the very top of that pyramid. I appreciate what you bring to the table even when I don't agree. No I don't have a degree in debate, nor in advanced journalism or professional writing. I think that shows in my posts. Am I passionate? Yep! Am I uber-eloquent at getting it across 100% of the time...not at all. Sorry Wes. I don't agree with the educational premise that you're after, but it don't mean I don't respect ya. Apologies. :cheers:

Edited to add: I didn't see the snarky PM you sent before finishing this reply - but regardless, I mean it and I will leave it as it stands. ;) And apologies also for the extra S. I thought I remembered seeing two somewhere. No one ever spells the Irish right on the board when they address me either. :) Have a good one Mate!

[Wes]

Wess, the argument can easily be called flawed from either end of the rope. I will say here loudly and proudly that I am pleased to work in a field shared by incredibly intelligent and talented individuals. And you sir are near the very top of that pyramid. I appreciate what you bring to the table even when I don't agree. No I don't have a degree in debate, nor in advanced journalism or professional writing. I think that shows in my posts. Am I passionate? Yep! Am I uber-eloquent at getting it across 100% of the time...not at all. Sorry Wess. I don't agree with the educational premise that you're after, but it don't mean I don';t respect ya. Apologies. :cheers:

Wow. Not the response I expected. I'm impressed. Oh, and there's one S in Wes.

[gmc]

We all know oh so well the agenda of the Society for University Schooled Opticians. You're looking for a marketing/branding tool.

You are dead wrong. It's amazing what you think you know about an organization with which you're not involved.

I don't have a formal opticianry education but I recognize its value.

Before I was persuaded to work in my late brother's optical business, I earned a degree in finance. Very little of what I learned has been transferable to the technical practice of opticianry. Much of it has been to the business side.

After working there for a year or so, I took and passed the NOCE. Taking the test made me realize how little I knew about optics. I decided to self educate to the extent I could.

When the opportunity to take the refracting course offered by the OAA came along I took it. The course instructor, Ed August of the opticianry program at SUNY suggested the participants in that course should become Master Opticians. I completed that certification under the old system.

I qualified to take the Florida license exam by virtue of earning a paycheck for 5 years in an unlicensed state and passing the NOCE and CLRE. I currently have two apprentices training under me. I do the best I can with them but there just aren't enough hours in the work day to teach them in a three year apprenticeship what they could learn in a two year degree program. As long as that's the system, I'll work within it. But I believe we can make the system better.

With my combination of self education, credentials and my years of experience I believe I am one of the better opticians working today. Do I have the technical proficiency of Darryl, Harry, Laurie or Wes? Hell no. Not even close. I recognize what I don't know. To better my knowledge and skills, I'm considering taking the NAIT program. Another SAO board member (an ABOM) that took the course said he was surprised what he learned from it.

What do I want to see happen? Education and licensure in every state for the benefit of those that follow. What do I expect to gain from my participatin in the SAO? Monetarily, not much if anything. I'm 51 years old. By the time our goals are met, if ever, I will have long since retired. As have all of the other members, I've spent a significant amount of time and money on this effort.

So please stop pretending you know what we are about when you have no clue.

[John@OWDC]

I'm not sure we need to reinvent the wheel here. Rather, expand its rolling radius. I'd luv to brainstorm this. Its what the VEE Orba meeting was all about. We'd need someplace to continue the dialogue on an ongoing basis. Let's start with that.

I'm with you, Wes! Maybe, just maybe...LC and E will recognize that their "house" programs are a bust without commensurate pay.



B

So, Barry --- Are you offering to pull together a session at VEW?
A real moderated and guided brainstorming process?
Carefully prepared and with an agenda that might lead to results?
Lead by people other than the usual suspects?

[Craig]

If Barry leads the session, I will help recruit and anything else to make it a reality.
Craig

[John@OWDC]

If Barry leads the session, I will help recruit and anything else to make it a reality.
Craig

Um, what part of, "not lead by the usual suspects" did you not understand?

Do you want an effective meeting that leads to real results?

1) Let us work together and come up with the questions that we really need to be asking.
2) Create a professional questionnaire for all the stakeholders: opticians, non-licensed ECPs, businesses, doctors, CONSUMERS! and schools.
3) Send the questionnaires out to statistically significant numbers of those stake holders.
4) Set the questionnaire up either as a quantitative (Likert Scale) or a qualitative model and have the results gathered and analyzed by professionals.
5) Gather that data to use at the meeting.

Who needs to be in the room?

1) A statistically relevant number of each stakeholder.
2) Representatives of the largest corporate employers of opticians and non-licensed ECPs.
3) People open to change and open to new ways of doing things.
4) People open to the idea that the final conclusion may be that we are a dying industry with little hope of survival.

The meeting needs a leader: A neutral non-optical person skilled in managing information and brainstorming activities.

We need to take a cold hard look at ALL the organizations, associations, and related groups and ask, “What is their relevance to our field?” some will stay, some will go.

Recognize that education is required for any job that receives good pay and respect. What form that education may take should be part of the discussion. Even promotions within jobs not linked to higher education usually require classes or experience to move up.

[Craig]

<<<<<This is where, as a profession, we make a mistake and why we will always be a second shelf product. Opticianry is about making money. We are NOT providing health care, that is the doctor’s job, not ours. We are in a optical practice to make it successful.>>>>>

This makes me cringe. And in all honesty, I find this to be a major problem with our industry. I don't care what all the rest of you call yourself, but don't ever refer to me as a saleman. My job is to find the best possible product for my patient, along the lines of a pharmacist. Selling is a secondary concern. Luckily, my doctor is like-minded.

Deb in NJ

I am proud to be a professional salesman!! This is a retail business and by the way; we find our clients who spend the most, refer the most!! I need to sell and educate the world about luxury lenses and frames; that is the sales mission of my stores. Who are you helping by not selling? The patient, yourself or the business that employs you.
We normally find the best possible product happens to be expensive or it would not be the best possible product for your patient.

Just another way to look at sales.

Craig- salesman

[optilady1]

I think a big reason that we as professionals can be so passionately split down the middle on this subject is because our job is very technical and we also have to deal with people. Some of us are really good at the technical part, some are really good at the emotional people part of our job. We can and should be trained and educated on the technical parts; the people skills can't be taught. The fashion part can't be taught, because it's very personal. I'm not even sure how much of the problem solving skills can be taught, because over time you learn what questions are the right and relevant ones to ask.

When I was in school, one of the big 'tag lines' our teachers told us over and over was that when we graduated and became licensed, we would be barely qualified to do our jobs well, and oh how true it is. But having seen the results of on the job training only, 95% of the time it's pretty ugly. I think their should be mandatory education for each state, and I think their should be an optional advanced degree available. I didn't like the idea when I was 20 in the program, but now I can say for sure I would have benefitted from another 2 years of school. I agree 100% with Wes, that schooling is a must, but I understand where Barry is coming from, because there have been plenty of dunder heads that I've come across who are fresh out of college.

[Judy Canty]

Um, what part of, "not lead by the usual suspects" did you not understand?

Do you want an effective meeting that leads to real results?

1) Let us work together and come up with the questions that we really need to be asking.
2) Create a professional questionnaire for all the stakeholders: opticians, non-licensed ECPs, businesses, doctors, CONSUMERS! and schools.
3) Send the questionnaires out to statistically significant numbers of those stake holders.
4) Set the questionnaire up either as a quantitative (Likert Scale) or a qualitative model and have the results gathered and analyzed by professionals.
5) Gather that data to use at the meeting.

Who needs to be in the room?

1) A statistically relevant number of each stakeholder.
2) Representatives of the largest corporate employers of opticians and non-licensed ECPs.
3) People open to change and open to new ways of doing things.
4) People open to the idea that the final conclusion may be that we are a dying industry with little hope of survival.

The meeting needs a leader: A neutral non-optical person skilled in managing information and brainstorming activities.

We need to take a cold hard look at ALL the organizations, associations, and related groups and ask, “What is their relevance to our field?” some will stay, some will go.

Recognize that education is required for any job that receives good pay and respect. What form that education may take should be part of the discussion. Even promotions within jobs not linked to higher education usually require classes or experience to move up.

This concept is something that I can buy into.

First steps?

[Craig]

Raise the bar and create a process for educational growth. My wife-Kelly just sat on the review board at Laurie's school and was blown away by what they do and the tools available to the students. Kelly had the opportunity to meet the students for a quesstion and answer session. The questions we awesome and the energy of the students was infectious. The students would gladly accept a higher bar to jump if possible.

But a six figure job requires six years of base education for a group of employees to demand and earn that kind of wage.

THINK ABOUT IT!!!!:drop::drop:

[Now I See]

What's the big fuss about an education, why so against it? Although I see only one person actually posting negative comments about education, I'm sure there are more, so I'm addressing the lurkers here, too. OK, fellow O-boarders, correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't imagine that anything we are talking about here would make all Opticians start all over and go back to school. Aren't we talking about setting standards and anyone NEW to the profession having to follow those new standards? I mean, if you are in an unlicensed state, there would have to be some kind of a Grandfather clause, some way to keep those that have been working in the profession for a certain amount of time from getting pushed backwards.

I can say from my own experience as an independent Optician, the reason I'm for this isn't some kind of marketing scheme...(plenty of advertising opportunities available if I wanted to do that)...It's because my livelyhood depends on it. There are reasons for having a license and, in my mind, one of them is to protect the public. Having a license (in any profession) is proof that you were willing, and able to complete the necessary tasks given in order to protect the public from harm. The fact that you have to take continuing education to keep that license proves that again you are willing and able to take the time and effort required to maintain your level of education.

[Wes]

Beat the drum long enough, sooner or later people will follow along if for no other reason to see what the fuss is about. I really like where this conversation is going. It was looking pretty ugly there for a while.

[Judy Canty]

Craig! Sweetie! I can't read that yellow font!! And please don't go all "Frank Zappa" on me. =)