Anyone Else Feel This Way ???

**Uilleann** · 03-22-2011, 02:58 PM

Comparing an MD or in this case a specialist MD (Pediatrician) to an Optician is ludicrous, and I think most here understand that. There is also a huge disparity in the wages associated between the two. Just as within the three O's. Wess, while I appreciate the insinuation that I, personally, have no formal educational experience but am somehow "smart enough" to pass as something of a competent American optician - that assertion isn't accurate. We've been over this before if you recall. However,as my own educational pursuits weren't the original thrust of this thread, I'll redirect.

Since yet another society was created under the wing of the ABO to attempt to extol the value of education to the general public's eye as it relates to the ability of any given optician's competency to practice their art, let's leave it up to them to prove the merits of an educated optician vs. a highly skilled optician in the efficacy of filling any given Rx for any given patient.

I still maintain that book smart does NOT always equate to skill. While there is certainly a large population of "smart" university (or otherwise) formally educated individuals, there are those who are not. To state otherwise is IMHO the nearsighted viewpoint. However, as I've said to you before, we will agree to disagree and be happy leaving it at that.

The end goal appears to have two elements needing answers:

A: We need to have a much better understanding of the real value that an "educated" optician vs. a "skilled" optician has in patients minds.
and
B: Once we have that answer, how do you realistically use that information to increase the perception of value of opticianry services in the mind of patients to make your practice more economically viable.

While I agree wholeheartedly that we are in medicine as opposed to "retail" - there is an element of ALL health care that is in sales. From cancer centers and hospitals, to life flight and ambulatory services, to the dentists, radiologists and yep, even the pediatricians down the block. They're all in this game for the same goal - business and growth (usually) through exceptional patient care. They market, they work to grow their patient base, and they are always looking to improve the bottom line...profit.

If you think it's your optician's diploma hanging on the wall that will get YOU there - then I say go get 'em! And best of luck. :cheers::cheers::cheers:

**Now I See** · 03-22-2011, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by DragonLensmanWV

Speaking as a member of an unlicensed state I can say that it's not that easy to just jump in. We tried over 30 years ago to get licensing here. We had even approached two adjacent licensed state's organizations to discuss (and received OKs) reciprocity. But, the ODs in our state had more (way more) money than we were able to pony up to lobby the legislature with and we never even got to present our materials. In those days, (as well as now) the OD's had the clout to even defeat OMD's objections to TPA, and even more procedures just last year. Could we get it to fly now? Not likely.

Unbelievable. :( I can't understand why they would put up such a block.

**libellule** · 03-22-2011, 05:28 PM

I guess I am somewhat confused.....

It seems to me that everyone can agree that there are many Opticians out there who are excellent at what they do and highly skilled despite no formal education. But, it also seems to me that some would like to believe that education does not equal skill. While I agree that there are many very intellegent individuals in the world who lack 'people skills' it seems silly to me to assume that someone could pass the State Boards (I am in a license state which requires both a written and practicle exam that is, I can assure you, much more difficult than the ABO/NCLE) and not be a better Optician than they would have been without the education.

**Laurie** · 03-22-2011, 05:41 PM

Hi 24/7,

Yes, I agree with you in that it is difficult to motivate people to receive an AS/Optical Science if the state does not mandate licensure with that pre-requisite. The two can certainly go hand in hand. Some states want to see that the education is already in place prior to legislative movement.

And, Uilleann, we are not under the umbrella of the ABO, not sure how you came to that conclusion. We will be completely autonomous, however, we will hold one of our two bi-annual board meetings at the ABO conference along with the other orgs exclusive to opticianry. I cannot tell you enough how great it is to have all of the opticianry orgs under one roof. Join us!

: )

Laurie

**Uilleann** · 03-22-2011, 06:36 PM

Never said the words "under the umbrella". There is a distinct difference. We on Optiboard all are well aware (and if you're not you should be) of the agenda of the newest bunch of opticians on the block to form a society touting their degrees and diplomas. That's wonderful. It doesn't however make the profession anymore homogeneous, nor really do anything to help the end patient/consumer of optical dispensaries. If those with degrees, licenses or certifications care to display them, and sing the praises of such to their customers, that is certainly their prerogative. But lets get real - when was the last time ANY of us was asked by a patient what our specific optical degree was, where it was from, and/or if we happened to graduate with honors. Further, of those who can say yes, how many of you subsequently and specifically lost a patient or sale for lack of educational paperwork?

At the end of the day, we're all trying to make a few bucks, being the best we can in the eyes of the general public. As it stands now, proving to Joe Q. that he needs to pay X$ more for your product because you say your "smarter" than the internet or the other guy down the block may be a hard sell.

**optical24/7** · 03-22-2011, 06:47 PM

Brian, you work in an unlicensed state like myself. You need to come spend a week with me and I'll show you the impression it makes on patients that have been to surrounding offices. I'm not bashful at telling them that this state doesn't require anything but a pulse. Not an HS diploma, nothing. I also let them know that I'm trained and AC.

The public, to the person is shocked that we require so little education...(none).

**libellule** · 03-22-2011, 07:03 PM

I have never said I am smarter than anyone. No one is saying that having a degree makes one smarter. What it does mean is that I spent 2 years of my time to learn my trade. And, I am sorry if it offends anyone that I am proud of that acomplishment.

And, I was asked, just today what LDO means and how many years I went to school for it....NO JOKE!

It seems to me that we need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and realize that, in this day and age, a formal education is both necessary and desirable for the future of the profession. I will never understand why we would not hold ourselves to the highest expectations. Besides, we might actually weed out the people who should not be Opticians and who perpetuate to those they serve that we are no more than 'frame stylists'.

**libellule** · 03-22-2011, 07:06 PM

On a friendlier note....

It is my hope for us that we can come together on some common ground. Those on Optiboard are dedicated to this profession. We all would like to see it thrive no matter if you believe we are an Allied Health profession or not.

If we can't play nice with each other we will get nowhere with the other O's.

**Wes** · 03-22-2011, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by libellule

I have never said I am smarter than anyone. No one is saying that having a degree makes one smarter. What it does mean is that I spent 2 years of my time to learn my trade. And, I am sorry if it offends anyone that I am proud of that acomplishment.

And, I was asked, just today what LDO means and how many years I went to school for it....NO JOKE!

It seems to me that we need to stop bickering amongst ourselves and realize that, in this day and age, a formal education is both necessary and desirable for the future of the profession. I will never understand why we would not hold ourselves to the highest expectations. Besides, we might actually weed out the people who should not be Opticians and who perpetuate to those they serve that we are no more than 'frame stylists'.

I agree with you. Maybe it's those same 'frame stylists' who are holding the rest of the profession back because they don't want to have to meet more rigorous standards; besides, they didn't need no steenking edumacation to be a (sl)optician, did they?

**optilady1** · 03-22-2011, 07:29 PM

I get asked at least once a week some sort of question pertaining to my education. I guess folks feel the need to say something while I'm de-gooing their frames behind my dispensing area. Of course, most of my patients are over 80, so they think I'm about 15.

I think libellule said it best. No, having an education/degree doesn't make you smarter, but sitting in a class 3 days a week for 8 hours a day and then working full time in a lab for two years makes me feel like I've got something going on in my head other than day dreaming about Robert Pattinson.

Some days I wish there were more advanced courses I could take that would bring me up to snuff with some of the real brains we here on Optiboard. One day, when I don't have two young children and a husband continuously out to sea I will study for my abo advanced and maybe try for my abo masters.

**Laurie** · 03-22-2011, 07:55 PM

Ullieann,

OK, you wrote 'under the wing' of the ABO, not 'umbrella'. The spirit of the message is the same...just clarifying that we (The SAO) are autonomous.

We are only talking about a two year Associates Degree here, lets get real...we are not asking for an outrageous credential. And, given the fact that you think all the Ph.D's you have met are 'morons', leaves little left to discuss in regard to your value of post-secondary education.

I will agree to disagree, there is no good that comes out of fighting about the value of ANY education, and I will not engage.

Looking forward to having this conversation again a couple of years from now and we can reflect on the outcomes.

: )

**Judy Canty** · 03-22-2011, 08:34 PM

Sadly....crabs in a bucket.

**Darryl Meister** · 03-22-2011, 10:38 PM

I think that the majority of optometrists would be very willing to support licensure for opticians, if the argument was framed to them properly.

Best regards,
Darryl

**John@OWDC** · 03-23-2011, 06:24 AM

OK
As the one who started this thread I think it may be time to put it to bed.
A HUGE thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion.
I appreciate it.
Please take a moment, look back over it and try to see at least one point of view you disagree with and ask yourself if you can find some validity to their position.
Until we are all (me too!) willing to consider all the possible viewpoints we will remain stuck where we are.

Maybe someone who is part of the ORBA or the VW Panel could (should) print this out for the next panel discussion? Post it along with the VCPN video?

**Uilleann** · 03-23-2011, 09:43 AM

Originally Posted by Laurie

Ullieann,

OK, you wrote 'under the wing' of the ABO, not 'umbrella'. The spirit of the message is the same...just clarifying that we (The SAO) are autonomous.
We are only talking about a two year Associates Degree here, lets get real...we are not asking for an outrageous credential. And, given the fact that you think all the Ph.D's you have met are 'morons', leaves little left to discuss in regard to your value of post-secondary education.
I will agree to disagree, there is no good that comes out of fighting about the value of ANY education, and I will not engage.
Looking forward to having this conversation again a couple of years from now and we can reflect on the outcomes.
: )

Laurie, may I humbly suggest a two year degree in reading comprehension.

And to clarify once again for the benefit of those who seem to keep missing it: I'm all for post-secondary education. I've had it. My wife's had it. Our three kids are going to have it. The dog...not so much. Sure there's worth in going to university etc. The value of that education however, in the context of "bettering" our profession is the real question.

Enjoy your time in school. :cheers::cheers::cheers:

**Wes** · 03-23-2011, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by Uilleann

(Insults removed)
And to clarify once again for the benefit of those who seem to keep missing it: I'm all for post-secondary education. I've had it. My wife's had it. Our three kids are going to have it. The dog...not so much. Sure there's worth in going to university etc. The value of that education however, in the context of "bettering" our profession is the real question.

Enjoy your time in school. :cheers::cheers::cheers:

Do you believe there is a better way to elevate the profession as a whole than formal education?
Do you think unstructured apprenticeships work better for the majority?
Do you think there are enough highly qualified opticians out there ready to take on young people eager to learn? Certainly, as I've said before, some highly qualified opticians come from apprenticeship and self-education, but that has proven to not be the norm. My opinion is that a BETTER education for the profession as a whole will be had through formal schooling.
This is not about you, or the few self-taught optical geniuses out there. It's about what's good for the profession as a whole.
Rather than tear down what we are trying to accomplish, rather than tear down all of the established organizations, tell us what your vision is. How do you believe we can improve and elevate this profession? Be realistic. What would you do? If you don't like our attempt at a solution, do you have something better?

**chip anderson** · 03-23-2011, 10:46 AM

For the most part I think there are enough highly qualified people willing to take on young people. I think this with a corresponding home study course would suffice (at least in the case of simi-intelligent apprentices). However part of the problem is that if one goes to school one pays for the priviledge, books and supplies. If you take on an apprentice, you pay him, you supply everything he needs, you must insure him (at least for job related stuff) and keep all sorts of records, etc. Not too many struggling independent opticals can affort the expense and time for this.
Now if this were a program where the appentice worked for free, and possibly paid for some of the materials (practice frames to weld and repair, dummy lenses to grind, etc. Then yes this could be done to the benefit of both the teacher and the student.
At present most of us don't want to or cannot take on another child to raise and pay them for the experience.
Such classroom teaching as required could easily be supplied by journeymen opticians at regular scheduled meetings through the local or state optician membership, and most would welcome this if for nothing else than getting a meeting place weekly, or monthly or whatever just to BS with people in the same occupation.

Chip
Chip

**AngeHamm** · 03-23-2011, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by CuriousCat

Sadly....crabs in a bucket.

Mmmmmm, delicious crabs.

**Wes** · 03-23-2011, 11:53 AM

I had a friend who had been taught by a "journeyman optician" to measure pds with a stick from canthus to canthus. Several licensed opticians I've met thought hi-index was just a thinner version of poly. Rarely do I meet someone who can calculate layout, or surface without a computer or chart telling them what curves to use, let alone write up. Rarer still do I meet an optician out here in the real world who understands the various abberrations like curvature of field, radial astigmatism and off-axis power error. Few understand power magnification and isekonic lens theory, and don't understand tilt and wrap concepts well enough to use calc programs, let alone know Martin's formula. Heck, many of them can't quote prentice's rule off the top of their head. I shudder to think about them instructing others in fitting rigid contacts or doing it themselves. Then there's the fashion aspects. Shape, color, tones? Ha!
I suspect we'd have to send most of todays opticians to school or an apprenticeship program before they'll be ready to train the next batch. Chip, I can see what you're talking about maybe working 40 years ago, but not today. There just aren't enough opticians out there capable of what you're suggesting.

**Barry Santini** · 03-23-2011, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Darryl Meister

I think that the majority of optometrists would be very willing to support licensure for opticians, if the argument was framed to them properly.

Best regards,
Darryl

Agreed...but:

as it is now, a "licensed" medical professional, aka "optician", doesn't learn or isn't exposed to:

1. Fashion
2. Understanding personality(s)
3. Understanding communication through body gesture
4. Understanding basic sales techniques
5. Mastery of fitting skills
6. True sleuthing of eyewear dissatisfaction
7. Improvising on the spot repairs
8. Understanding facial shapes and how to compliment them
9. Handling negotiations
10. Why Rxs go wrong.

I think they would *gladly* hire anyone with these add'l skill sets, in addition to the medical stuff we teach now.

Discussion?

B

**Darryl Meister** · 03-23-2011, 02:19 PM

Just remember that licensure and certification only guarantee a minimum acceptable standard of competency.

Best regards,
Darryl

**Judy Canty** · 03-23-2011, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by Barry Santini

Agreed...but:

as it is now, a "licensed" medical professional, aka "optician", doesn't learn or isn't exposed to:

1. Fashion
2. Understanding personality(s)
3. Understanding communication through body gesture
4. Understanding basic sales techniques
5. Mastery of fitting skills
6. True sleuthing of eyewear dissatisfaction
7. Improvising on the spot repairs
8. Understanding facial shapes and how to compliment them
9. Handling negotiations
10. Why Rxs go wrong.

I think they would *gladly* hire anyone with these add'l skill sets, in addition to the medical stuff we teach now.

Discussion?

B

I guess I don't understand. I would hazard a guess that the college-educated Optician would have at least a working understanding of those concepts and skills.

**Uilleann** · 03-23-2011, 02:45 PM

You'd think that most college-educated anyone's would have at least a working understanding of...something. And yet there are still scores who somehow manage to, well, NOT. As Darryl points out, licensure and certification are designed to try and prove some minimum acceptable standard of competency (even the "advanced" and "masters" in ABO don't come close to covering all the bases that could be). Any given college or university degree is the same - perhaps with a different set of variable minimums used to define it.

**chip anderson** · 03-23-2011, 02:45 PM

Anyone notice that 80% of Barry's "qualifications" to do with psychology, and selling. I guess that's what an "optician" does these days.

**Wes** · 03-23-2011, 03:41 PM

Last time I checked,and its been a couple yrs,the BLS listed roughly 66,000 opticians working in the US. Most are not college trained, but for the sake of argument let's say its 20%. That's roughly 13,000.
So "scores" of college educated opticians fall through the cracks? A few twenties of persons out of thousands? Not too shabby. As the pass rate for the basic NOCE for college educated opticians is something like 98% (there's your "scores"), while the overall is in the 50% range, its not hard to figure out who's bringing the #s down, and its NOT the college grads. The arguments against formal education hold no water. I can't even figure out why they're made. Not logically, anyway. It has to be a knee-jerk reaction to the "I don't got no schoolin, so it must not be needed" attitude and fear of being left behind. Again, we are our own worst enemy.

I asked for solutions, but again I got a lot of griping, but no solutions offered other than fairy-tale logic and wishful thinking.

Who has a better solution than mandatory formal schooling accompanied by subsequent licensure? I'm not suggesting the current curriculum being taught is perfect but it can be updated to reflect what's needed, and even as-is, its way better than nothing.

Solutions, not b1tch1ng. Anyone?

I didn't think so.