Scratches?

[makavel]

Hi there,

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask this, so I apologize if I'm not. In that case, could you please direct me to a place where I might be able to have this question answered?

During the summer, I purchased some nice Silhouette rimless frames from a shop here, and I was very happy with them. After a few weeks, I noticed this weird smudge only in certain conditions (dark environment with a bright light source). After inspecting my glasses carefully, I realized that there was an area of very fine scratches on the right lens that was causing the problem. I bought these glasses with the Crizal Avance with Scotchguard AR coating, so the optical shop warrants them for two years with a $20 fee for new lenses. Eventually, I decided I'd replace them because I'm a medical student and often am working in front of computers/in other conditions that cause the fine abrasions to become visible and frustrating.

Upon receiving the new pair, I didn't notice any problems, but the next morning (another time that this issue manifests) I was shocked to notice the exact same problem again, but in both lenses and right in the center of my vision this time! I had cleaned the lenses once each, and was very careful to do so very lightly with a soft cloth because I was paranoid about scratching them again.

After carefully looking at them, I noticed that the scratch pattern is actually very similar bilaterally. I've attached photos. Basically, it is a semi-circle/rainbow shape. On the right lens, the center of the circle is also scratched, but you can clearly see the same shape around the outside with a separate circle of scratches on the inside. That inner circle measures at about 8 or 9mm on both lenses, which seems to indicate some sort of mechanical cause rather than random scratches from harsh cleaning. I've had these lenses for 2 days.

My question: is this the result of something that either the lab or the optician is doing to the glasses? It looks like it may have been a kind of clamp tool that was used to hold the lenses in place during some stage of processing. I don't want to go into the shop and blame them or the lab if it truly isn't their fault. However, I'm having to wear an old pair of glasses because I can't wear the new pair in this condition and am not sure how to proceed.

Thanks for your help, and I apologize again if this is not allowed!

SUMMARY: Got lenses replaced because of scratches I thought were from harsh cleaning; new lenses have same abrasions, but bilaterally this time; think that they may be from handling of lenses but would like confirmation.

Higher quality images in links:
Right: http://i.imgur.com/GqL2R.jpg
Left: http://i.imgur.com/i72El.jpg

IMG_1649.jpgIMG_1650.jpg

[The Goose]

How are you champ ?
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Im not sure either if you are allowed to ask these types of questions, but I will give you my opinion.
There is obviously something wrong, if after a few weeks there is a problem visable to the naked eye. It could be a lot of things and only viewing the lenses will be able to make an infomed decision, although I like your pictures :)
So, the possiblities are: MAR peeling, chuck mark from too tight fitting, faulty MAR from inital process, faulty or inferior material. If it is a rimless frame, it could be a soft material like polycarboante used and can scratch quite easliy (I dont care what lens marketing says different). Also, any MAR doesnt adhere very well to polycarbonate, due to the uneven surface, so can sometimes peel very soon or cause problems. The material could also be Trivex which is better, but can have similar problems. I would definetly bring them back as they should be under warranty (I dont agree you should pay $20 though). Maybe they should try a more stable material for scratches and MAR (depending on your Rx),like a 1.56, 1.6 index.
Dont forget you probably paid a lot for these glasses too, so good customer service should be standard.
Best of luck and I hope you can get this fixed properly :)

[Wes]

While consumer questions are generally disallowed, this has no bearing on eye health or any sort of diagnosis. This appears to be a clear case of crazing. No, I didn't call you crazy. Crazing in a lens is when the antireflective (AR) coat has microcracks in it from heating, overclamping pressure, flexion, etc. The coating is a microscopically thin layer of glass over the scratch coat. Being glass, it can break from pressure, flexing, disparity in coefficient of expansion between the coat and substrate, etc. From the look of yours, its from too high of chuck pressure during lens edging. It was probably given to you that way. Return to the shop, explain your new findings and ask for a remake, no charge. Do them a favor, and tell them their lab has a crazing issue.

[optilady1]

Definitely crazing, and great photos by the way of the problem. I don't know how you got them, but you captured them really well.

[The Goose]

Definitely crazing, and great photos by the way of the problem. I don't know how you got them, but you captured them really well.

Yes, a beautiful photo that captures the essence and glamour of a lens :)

[NCspecs]

Most definately crazing. It's annoying and sometimes embarrassing (for the seasoned dispensing Optician), but can be easily rectified. I'm sorry you had to deal with that!

[makavel]

Thanks to all of you for your help! Knowing what the problem was, I stopped by the shop after leaving the hospital today. I told the optician what had happened, and she couldn't see the crazing (she said she has never been able to see things on other people's glasses), but had me circle it on the lenses in Sharpie. She's going to send them back to the lab and have them redone. Hopefully the result will be better this time!

As for the photos, I took them by holding my glasses to the side of a computer screen (blue background) in a dark room. This is exactly when the crazing is the most evident, so I figured it was the best way to photograph it. It worked a lot better than I had expected! I'm glad you guys liked the photos!

Again, thank you all for your help. I really appreciate it!

[FVCCHRIS]

We know you're just Hot for the Optician and looking for a reason to keep visiting her!! I have a hammer with that same shaped head on it so you must be wrapping your lens in a hanky and wackin' it on the workbench right? Pretty clever there...:p

[makavel]

We know you're just Hot for the Optician and looking for a reason to keep visiting her!! I have a hammer with that same shaped head on it so you must be wrapping your lens in a hanky and wackin' it on the workbench right? Pretty clever there...:p

Hahaha you caught me! Please don't tell her. I want to see her again! I'll have to come up with a new plan for next time :)

[AngeHamm]

Excellent photos!

Yeah, the crazy thing about crazing is that you often can only see it when you're looking at JUST the right angle--and it shows up most dramatically in low-light environments with pinpoint light sources, such as driving at night. Going to the theatre is a dead giveaway as well.

[makavel]

Excellent photos!

Yeah, the crazy thing about crazing is that you often can only see it when you're looking at JUST the right angle--and it shows up most dramatically in low-light environments with pinpoint light sources, such as driving at night. Going to the theatre is a dead giveaway as well.

That is exactly what made me feel so crazy! When this happened on my first set of lenses, I thought I was imagining things for a while. I'd just see smudges while driving either in the early morning or at night, and similar things while using a computer. Thankfully, I finally realized what the problem was after examining the lenses in depth, but had no idea that it was crazing. I'm so glad people here could help because otherwise I would have gone on thinking that I had caused it on both sets of lenses by cleaning too hard or something.

Thanks again to all of you!

[makavel]

Hi guys!

I wanted to update you all. I got my glasses back last weekend. I think they had probably been shipped to me before then, but I was sent to Corpus Christi (4 hours away from Houston) for two weeks to do my pediatrics inpatient rotation and that's when I got back. Anyway, the new lenses seemed fine the first couple of days, but then I started noticing a similar problem. I don't know if it showed up after cleaning or if I just didn't notice it at first, but the same issue is present again. This time, the arcs are in the opposite direction. I wanted to provide you guys some nice photos like I did last time, but I forgot my digital camera at my apartment and came home for the weekend, so a boring photo with my phone will have to do. I used a dry erase marker to circle where the new crazing issues are. Not fun! I will be taking them back to the shop again tomorrow :(

This is super disappointing because this is the first time that I've gotten glasses from a legitimate optical shop rather than a place like Lenscrafters, and it's turning out to be such a problem!

IMAG0173.jpg
Higher quality: http://i.imgur.com/cVqwj.jpg

[cleyes]

The Gods have it in for you! When it rains....it pours! Your optician's lab is having issues.....suggest she try different lab if they can't fix this problem.

[hcjilson]

Consumer Posts can't possibly give you the information you need to solve this problem which is the main reason they are not allowed. I decided to let this one ride for a while to see what would happen.

1. Are the scratches on the convex side of the lens or the concave? No one bothered to ask that question, and the assumption was the scratches were caused by the chucking pressure.

2. I suspect the scratches will be found on the OUTSIDE (convex surface) of the lenses. The reason I suspect this is because the scratches occur in the same relative position. IF that is the case, chucking to tightly is NOT the cause.

3. Since the replacement pair was scratch free at delivery "for a few days" we can properly assume it is something that happened AFTER delivery.

Now, what possibly could have happened to the lens surface of a new pair of rimless spectacles that COULD have caused it? The answer is the scratches PROBABLY were caused by the CASE into which they were put. The key can be found in the first 2 photos. It appears to me (and maybe I am wrong here) that the frame is the original Sillouette rimless without hinged temples, coming complete with a bullet shaped case.

You could only tell this if you could SEE it, ERGO I only put this in as a suggestion (as opposed to the gospel), and an explanation of why consumer questions are not allowed.We don't have enough information to solve this consumer's problem so all the time and effort that has gone into your kind responses has been wasted.

Note to Makavel, If you are a medical student (Pedi rotation) please promise not to diagnose over the phone when you start practice. And....don't be too hard on either the optician or the optician's choice of lab. This may not have been the fault of either....And we do appreciate your support of the independent practitioner.

[chip anderson]

Have you concidered a refund and another optical shop? Preferably an independent not prescriber owned establishment? Houston has lots of them.

Chip

[makavel]

I took the glasses back to the shop this morning, explained the situation, and the optician was able to see the crazing after I showed her by shining my pen light through them. She said it looked like a problem during "blocking". She asked me to email the original pictures I had and said she'd talk to the lab manager. She thinks that it could also be related to the base curvature of my prescription coupled with the polycarbonate material and AR coating, so she will see if the lab manager thinks perhaps a high index lens would work better. I asked what I could have done to cause this and she said that unless I exposed the lenses to excessive heat or to a salt bath (I think), then it didn't look likely. The shop is being very helpful, so I really appreciate it.

Hcjilson:
I apologize! I wasn't asking for any more advice when I posted yesterday, but rather was just updating on the situation. However, I don't want to intrude on your space if you'd rather I not, so I'd be happy to stop posting updates if told to do so! Should I stop?

To answer your questions, I'm not sure whether the scratches are on the convex or concave side of the lens. I don't know how to figure that out because I can't physically see them on the surface (I've looked!)--they only show up when light refracts through them abnormally.

As for being scratch-free at delivery, I didn't go into details about this because I wasn't asking for more advice. Sorry about that! They were mailed to me at school and I admit that I didn't look them over closely when they arrived (I didn't have a reliable way to identify the issue, and naively assumed that nothing could be wrong because the lab would be extra careful this time). I was also wearing contacts for some of the first couple of days I had the new lenses, so I didn't have a ton of time in them. It wasn't until I drove at night a couple of days after I received them that I was able to detect it. Because I didn't look them over thoroughly when I received them, it's perfectly plausible that they were scratch-free at that point and that I somehow caused them to scratch like that later, but I'm honestly not sure. I can't deny the possibility. Now though, I've discovered that I can shine my pen light through the lenses at an angle to identify this problem, so I will be able to check the next pair properly when they arrive.

You are completely correct that these are the hingeless Silhouette frames. The case has a flap that opens on one end and the glasses slide in, so if that's what you mean by bullet case, then you're right! However, I actually don't use the case at all--when I take them off, they either sit on my desk in my living room or on my night stand next to my bed.

I am indeed a medical student and I promise not to diagnose over the phone! I know how difficult that can be (and understand exactly what you're saying about this situation). I want you to know that I did find it extremely helpful that the great people here made me realize that there could be causes other than just cleaning the glasses too hard (or with something abrasive in the cloth). Had they not, I'd have gone on thinking that I'd somehow damaged my lenses during cleaning and would probably not have gone back to the optician out of embarrassment. I'd have ignored the fact that this is probably my 6th or 7th pair of glasses and I've not had this issue ever before. So thanks to this forum, I was provided a bit of confidence in knowing that there was the possibility that I didn't cause this.

Finally, you don't have to worry about me being to hard on the optician/lab! I never do that to anyone because I can't ever see a good reason to ruin someone's day. Today was no different! After we looked at the lenses, the optician and I chatted about what specialty I am leaning toward, what her kids are doing now, and her move to here from another part of Texas. Even if they never can fix it, I won't be mean because that's just not who I am!

Chip: Thanks for your suggestion! You must be psychic to know that I went to a prescriber-owned establishment (it was recommended to my family). If this can't be resolved, then I might consider going to an independent shop, but this place is being very nice and helpful with the situation, so I want to give them the chance to get it right!

[Speed]

Nothing you did. Dump the rimless. That should allow you to dump the poly. Get a nice metal freme and spectralite or CR 39 material. That should solve the problems.

[hcjilson]

Keep the rimless- dump the poly and go into Trivex is better advice than above. That having been said, we still don't know the limitations of the Rx which might alter my advice, however the problem isn't with the frames, it's with the lenses. By the way, I have found Crizal Alize Avance is the most superior anti reflective coating on the market, and the manufacturer backs them up 100%.

All things being equal, you will see the difference of opinions that can result in answering a consumer's problem in this thread alone. Trust your optician, they are fully equiped to solve the problem.

PS I just noticed in the thread above that Speed recommended dumping the poly and going into Spectralite. Spectralite ( I have been told, not necessarily gospel) is Sola Optical's trade name for polycarbonate. Either Darryl Meister or Steve Machol may be able to confirm this but in any event Trivex is the superior material for rimless anyway.

[Judy Canty]

As a side note, there have been problems in the past with stock poly/Crizal coated lenses and crazing.

[finefocus]

Spectralite ( I have been told, not necessarily gospel) is Sola Optical's trade name for polycarbonate. Either Darryl Meister or Steve Machol may be able to confirm this but in any event Trivex is the superior material for rimless anyway.

Yes, Trivex by all means.
Spectralite isn't poly. 1.54 index, better Abbe, less prone to spider cracks.

[chip anderson]

Spectralite: Guaranteed to have coating failure at 11 months.
Every time I was fool enough to use it, I got this result.

[makavel]

Thanks guys! We'll see what the optician and lab manager come up with. Maybe they'll reach the same conclusion as you guys about trivex, but time will tell!

[davelp]

When I was with Lenscrafters we had just introduced the Scotchguard lenses and had similar problems constantly, I too agree it's a combination of the poly with the AR and for that and other reasons have totally stopped using Poly for drill mounts, Trivex is such a superior material for drills it's crazy to use poly.

[makavel]

When I was with Lenscrafters we had just introduced the Scotchguard lenses and had similar problems constantly, I too agree it's a combination of the poly with the AR and for that and other reasons have totally stopped using Poly for drill mounts, Trivex is such a superior material for drills it's crazy to use poly.

I'm not sure if they changed the material or anything this time because I didn't get to talk to the optician after the glasses came back- they mailed them to me at med school. The repaired set of glasses arrived last weekend and everything is good! No crazing! I don't know if they used Trivex instead of polycarbonate, but I'm not going to complain because they finally look great. In the future, I think I'll make sure all of my new lenses are Trivex instead of polycarbonate in the hopes that this will avoid similar issues!

Thanks for your help, guys!