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Thread: Do u charge extra on POF?

  1. #1
    OptiBoardaholic a1vo's Avatar
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    Question Do u charge extra on POF?

    I think most of us take patient's own frame (POF) as long as they are in fairly good condition and (probably) not those super expensive models.

    My question here is do u charge extra to use POF??

    Normally, I don't if they are full rim metal or zyl. For rimlon, drillmount and wrap frames, we charge a fee because our lab charge us extra.

    But after reading the thread Giving Away Your Profits, I think I should charge even for the fullrim POFs. Why should we adjust POF free of charge and still take the risk! If we (or our lab) break POF, patients always think that we are responsible and ask for the replacement. And most of us will give them a pair "standard" frame for replacement just to settle the case.

    So, I think charging the fee (which covers our labor and breakage insurance) will be fair.

    What do you, my fellow opticians, think?? All comments welcome.
    Paul @ Silicon Valley California

  2. #2
    MasterCrafter OptiBoarder MasterCrafter's Avatar
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    No we do not charge the patient. But what we do is have them sign a waiver releasing us of responsability. We tell them that the manufacturing process is stressful on frames and we will not replace them if they break. Alot of times they will buy a new frame:bbg:



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    "The manufacturing processis stressful on frames" Really? Since when?

    It's stuff like this that give opticians a bad name.

    In over 25 years of making eyewear, I can still count on the fingers of one hand how many POF's I've broken (and I don't have to use more than 3). If you don't want to do it, fine, tell them that up front, but don't make up a b.s. line.

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    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    I have no trouble taking a frame for a patient that is in excellent condition. If I think the frame is too brittle or too bent I always tell the patient that if I was still a lab rat I'd be uncomfortable working with their frame. An honest explanation always works in my office.

    A1vo, take into account that the person may be quite attached to the frame they want you to use. No need to penalize them for that! Is it really all that much more difficult to use a pt's frame than it is to use one from your own inventory? Or are you just taking it personally that the customer may not care for your stock? Either way it is the same amount of labor. If it really bothers you that a patient doesn't buy a frame from you consider this; they DID trust YOU to order the proper lenses for them and really that is the most important part of it all.

  5. #5
    OptiBoardaholic a1vo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    don't make up a b.s. line.
    "pattern fee" - another bs line I overheard in the past for POF charge.

    I hate bs line too. that's sign of bad customer services.

    "labor charge and breakage insurance" is true and fair.
    Paul @ Silicon Valley California

  6. #6
    OptiWizard
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    Quote Originally Posted by a1vo View Post

    "labor charge and breakage insurance" is true and fair.

    Yeah, that doesn't sound like a BS charge!

    :hammer:

  7. #7
    Master OptiBoarder NCspecs's Avatar
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    Breakage insurance? It's been my experience that higher quality frames and lenses have warranties offered by the manufactuer if damage is from normal wear & tear. I do not charge any of my pt's an added fee for a warranty. Also, wouldn't the "labor charge" be covered in the mark-up of the lenses?

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    OptiBoardaholic a1vo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCspecs View Post
    I have no trouble taking a frame for a patient that is in excellent condition. If I think the frame is too brittle or too bent I always tell the patient that if I was still a lab rat I'd be uncomfortable working with their frame. An honest explanation always works in my office.

    A1vo, take into account that the person may be quite attached to the frame they want you to use. No need to penalize them for that! Is it really all that much more difficult to use a pt's frame than it is to use one from your own inventory? Or are you just taking it personally that the customer may not care for your stock? Either way it is the same amount of labor. If it really bothers you that a patient doesn't buy a frame from you consider this; they DID trust YOU to order the proper lenses for them and really that is the most important part of it all.
    POF or not, I treate my customers with the same respect and good services.
    Paul @ Silicon Valley California

  9. #9
    ABOM Wes's Avatar
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    I have no issue with POF in general, but I do point out that our warranty against defects is only extended to the lenses we sell, and not to the complete pair as it would be if they purchased the entire package from us. If the pt is getting sv CR-39, no big deal, but if they're purchasing freeform hi index ar coated transitions progressives, they seriously need to consider what they would do if their POF broke. The POF quality and condition must be taken into account.
    I do agree that if your lab is charging you extra you should include that in the cost.
    Wesley S. Scott, MBA, MIS, ABOM, NCLE-AC, LDO - SC & GA

    “As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it.” -Albert Einstein

  10. #10
    ATO Member HarryChiling's Avatar
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    Patients own frames, here are some of the things that often happen with patients own frames:


    1. They break when glazing new lenses.
    2. The patient swears that paint chip wasn't there before you glazed them.
    3. Temple tips break from brittleness.
    4. Screws are stripped or barrel is worn.
    5. Nose pads, screws, and temples often need replacement.
    6. Patient needs it cut while they wait because it's their only pair.

    The list could go on, but the point is that you shouldn't feel bad charging for a patients own frame. They do often require more work, especially since you have to clean them, adjust them, and replace parts on them more often then not. These things cost time and money and then the occasional break. It's always the zyl frames that have a slight crack in the frame bevel.

    Pattern fee, if you have a pattern edger you would of course be able to justify why you use this term for your fee, but even on a patternless you can justify it as digital storage for a pattern. That has value especially when you consider that most of the POF patients will have only one pair of glasses and your going to be putting lenses in them.

    "The manufacturing process is stressful on frames", that is a true statement. Most frames should be capable of standing up to that stress in order to be used again, but you never know until you break the frame if it is going to work out or not. Don't believe it wait until the day you snap a memory metal frame right on the bridge. Things happen, and since no one wants to hear: "A Things Happens Fee" come up with something that you can justify or roll it into the price of the lenses either way if it costs you time or money then pass that on.

  11. #11
    OptiBoardaholic a1vo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCspecs View Post
    Breakage insurance? It's been my experience that higher quality frames and lenses have warranties offered by the manufactuer if damage is from normal wear & tear. I do not charge any of my pt's an added fee for a warranty. Also, wouldn't the "labor charge" be covered in the mark-up of the lenses?
    Breakage insurance ==> is to insure that if POF broke, it will be replaced with a pair "standard" frame from our inventory at no extra charge.

    "labor charge" ==> is the dispensing fee which is different from the material cost. Even though, in most cases, the dispensing fee is embedded in the total cost when purchase is for a complete pair,
    Paul @ Silicon Valley California

  12. #12
    Independent Owner kcount's Avatar
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    I will gleefully take a POF. No extra charge, just honest about the condition of the frame. Also mark down all dmage to the frame before we start.
    • Optician
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    • Teacher of the art of crafting handmade eyewear.

  13. #13
    Master OptiBoarder
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    Patients own frames, here are some of the things that often happen with patients own frames:


    1. They break when glazing new lenses.
    2. The patient swears that paint chip wasn't there before you glazed them.
    3. Temple tips break from brittleness.
    4. Screws are stripped or barrel is worn.
    5. Nose pads, screws, and temples often need replacement.
    6. Patient needs it cut while they wait because it's their only pair.

    The list could go on, but the point is that you shouldn't feel bad charging for a patients own frame. They do often require more work, especially since you have to clean them, adjust them, and replace parts on them more often then not. These things cost time and money and then the occasional break. It's always the zyl frames that have a slight crack in the frame bevel.

    Pattern fee, if you have a pattern edger you would of course be able to justify why you use this term for your fee, but even on a patternless you can justify it as digital storage for a pattern. That has value especially when you consider that most of the POF patients will have only one pair of glasses and your going to be putting lenses in them.

    "The manufacturing process is stressful on frames", that is a true statement. Most frames should be capable of standing up to that stress in order to be used again, but you never know until you break the frame if it is going to work out or not. Don't believe it wait until the day you snap a memory metal frame right on the bridge. Things happen, and since no one wants to hear: "A Things Happens Fee" come up with something that you can justify or roll it into the price of the lenses either way if it costs you time or money then pass that on.
    I think Harry covered the topic beautifully. I only ask the client one question. "Do you have anything, with your most recent prescription as an emergency back-up? If not, don't use the frame again...."

  14. #14
    OptiBoard Novice AdVancedOptics's Avatar
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    Just had to eat the cost of a new frame for this very reason. Patient claims paint chips weren't there before new lenses went in (probably true). Lab graciously re-cut the lenses in the brand new frame at no charge, but we don't have an "at patient's own risk" for using POF's. I'll be suggesting to the lab manager that we have a waiver like MasterCrafter has, or even at least documenting the frame condition w/ the patient before we cut from now on. We don't charge extra for POF unless it's grooved/drillmount.

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    We charge for POF and have separate fees for Metal Mount, Grooved/Drilled and Zyl Mount as well as having them sign a waiver. We do not charge for nose pads, screws, etc so I guess the way I see it is..you can't do EVERYTHING for free. :)

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  17. #17
    OptiWizard
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    I indirectly charge for lenses only...... I give a discount when customer buys the complete frame and lens.

    Harry

  18. #18
    OptiBoard Apprentice
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    We do the same thing. We explain to patients that they save $20.00 when they purchase a frame and lens package. If they buy lenses only they don't get the discount. So, if it's lenses only, we make and additional $20.00 to offset additional costs and risks. Many will also opt to get the package instead of using their old frame.

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    the lab i work for charges a pattern fee if the frame has never come from us, and they still make the patient sign a waiver for damage that could happen. my store tries not to even use their frame, cause it costs more for just lenses than it does for a complete pair.

  20. #20
    Barticus Prime - Optibot opticianbart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    "The manufacturing processis stressful on frames" Really? Since when?

    It's stuff like this that give opticians a bad name.

    In over 25 years of making eyewear, I can still count on the fingers of one hand how many POF's I've broken (and I don't have to use more than 3). If you don't want to do it, fine, tell them that up front, but don't make up a b.s. line.
    Dude, then you've been crazy lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryChiling View Post
    Patients own frames, here are some of the things that often happen with patients own frames:


    1. They break when glazing new lenses.
    2. The patient swears that paint chip wasn't there before you glazed them. This, OMG THIS.
    3. Temple tips break from brittleness.
    4. Screws are stripped or barrel is worn.
    5. Nose pads, screws, and temples often need replacement.
    6. Patient needs it cut while they wait because it's their only pair.
    The list could go on, but the point is that you shouldn't feel bad charging for a patients own frame. They do often require more work, especially since you have to clean them, adjust them, and replace parts on them more often then not. These things cost time and money and then the occasional break. It's always the zyl frames that have a slight crack in the frame bevel.

    Pattern fee, if you have a pattern edger you would of course be able to justify why you use this term for your fee, but even on a patternless you can justify it as digital storage for a pattern. That has value especially when you consider that most of the POF patients will have only one pair of glasses and your going to be putting lenses in them.

    "The manufacturing process is stressful on frames", that is a true statement. Most frames should be capable of standing up to that stress in order to be used again, but you never know until you break the frame if it is going to work out or not. Don't believe it wait until the day you snap a memory metal frame right on the bridge. Things happen, and since no one wants to hear: "A Things Happens Fee" come up with something that you can justify or roll it into the price of the lenses either way if it costs you time or money then pass that on.
    Bart Smith, continuing to be awesome since 1982 so that you don't have to.

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  21. #21
    MasterCrafter OptiBoarder MasterCrafter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post
    "The manufacturing processis stressful on frames" Really? Since when?

    It's stuff like this that give opticians a bad name.

    In over 25 years of making eyewear, I can still count on the fingers of one hand how many POF's I've broken (and I don't have to use more than 3). If you don't want to do it, fine, tell them that up front, but don't make up a b.s. line.
    Im in the business to sell new eyewear, not keep retreading some guys frame thats 5 years old. Its people like you who give opticians a bad name.

    Zyl frames do not get brittle over time ? Your trying to tell everybody here that its not stressful ? You must not have any lab experience.



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    15 years @ 150 jobs per day
    10 years @ 40 jobs per day

    I think you should be in business to get people to wear glasses PERIOD.

    Sure, zyl frames get brittle with age, that's why you SLOW DOWN and take your time heating it up. You heat it up before you pop the old lens out. You heat it up to pop the new lens in. Simple, takes a bit longer, but the frame doesn't suffer for it. Frames break because you mistreat them, no other reason (apart from bad manufacturing). Forcing an oversized lens into a brittle frame without heating it will break the frame (if not the lens), and I don't care whether it is glass or some form of plastic.

    Now, if you aren't interested in making the patient happy, then send him/her to me.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by opticianbart View Post
    Dude, then you've been crazy lucky.
    Nope, just very well trained and practiced.

    With very few exceptions, I believe in the hackneyed phrase "the customer is always right". If the customer wants to use his old frame and it is in good condition, then by all means, put new lenses into the old frame.

  24. #24
    MasterCrafter OptiBoarder MasterCrafter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAurelius View Post

    I think you should be in business to get people to wear glasses PERIOD.

    .
    Yea, thats why were all here. To put people in glasses. Money has nothing to do with it. If thats the case. Why not work for free?



  25. #25
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    LMAO, sorry, the bait is obvious and I won't touch it (especially since you ignored the last part of the sentence).

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