I agree! Hopefully associations in North America have taken steps to provide front line dispensers with Risk Assessment forms so that documentation can be provided to governments.Originally Posted by Barry Santini
I agree! Hopefully associations in North America have taken steps to provide front line dispensers with Risk Assessment forms so that documentation can be provided to governments.
His motivation for offering eyewear:
He can then say...."professionals on optiboard try my eyeglasses." or.... "even a few Optiboard eyecare professionals order from us, so why not you" or any spin that would gain face, and onliners desperately want face, need face.
Couldn't help but notice that Firmoo's attempt to gain face by listing ECP from Canada, on his website, didn't include Walfarts listings.
Oy Vay !!
There is an autorefractor at the mall. 50 cents and it spits out the Rx. (More accurate.)
More accurate than what?
Do you work for E, because that sounds like a glossy brochure about the latest lens coating! LOL
Work for E or die. LOL
Not presently.
Why are you feeding the troll? Do you make 5X markup? I sure don't. That's one thing the onliners misrepresent all the time so they can be seen as the "heroes".
Do the onliners pay their employees as well as I do? Do they have to pay regressive fees like B&O taxes and city fees and even city income taxes? State income taxes as well as federal?
I DOUBT IT!!
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
With all due respect, as far as your comments about employees are concerned, if the on-line business is in the US, you can doggone betcha that they are paying a fair labor rate AND paying taxes and fees. Remember, the largest on-line operation is owned by Essilor and is located in the US.
Do you actually think all the manufacturing and employment by FD is actually located here, not China? Do they make sure they are not in city limits to avoid those taxes like WM does?
Besides, they spread misinformation and don't care if it's right or not.
Would you like it if I spread around (now that in a lot of cases, glass is more expensive than plastics) that the glass manufacturers are making over 1000X profit (the same # I see bandied about on the online websites), and that the sole reason glass is more expensive than plastic is so they can drive their Mercedes longer and they are just in it for obscene profits?
Now, you and I both know that is not the case, but I won't defend the onliners for any reason when they lie so much.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
I'm in the same city as FD. I know of no lab they operate here. ( and I think I would have heard of it.)
With all the labs that Essilor owns or controls, who is to say that they are not farming the business out to various of their own labs? What sense does it make to buy and own all the labs that they do, and then send all the business to China? Absolutely none. Occams Razor at work. The simpliest explanation is the most likely: one or more of their own labs is doing the work. Plain and simple.
So, you're saying that we should support online retailers because they may (or may not) use a US based lab AND because they may (or may not) be providing jobs in the US.
Mike, who's to say they don't own a chinese lab? And also, there's no way they can produce a pair of glasses here in the USA as cheap as suppliers in China. It makes perfect sense for them to produce them there, not here.
If it was in China before E bought them, why would they move it? Occam's Razor at it's finest.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
Sure, they might own some labs in China.
But who says they have to make them as cheaply as China does? Again, with all the labs they own, including the biggie in DFW, they can produce the jobs right here in the US and sell direct without the middle-man markup of the optician. They don't NEED to go to China!
The time/expense of shipping from China would offset any savings they might get from doing the work over there.
Of all the evil things that Essilor has done to the US optical business, I just can't see them going to China with the amount of main investment they've made here. If they were going to send everything to China, I believe they'd be shutting down labs in the US as they buy them instead of refurbishing them and making them more productive.
That's a mighty big if. There has been nothing in any of the public documents which indicate that they have made investments in China. That is something that they would have to report to shareholders and it has not been in any shareholder documents that I have seen or in any public announcements.
I think the point you're missing is that when they bought FD, they also bought the Chinese lab where they were being produced. Makes no sense to move production and close Chinese lab.
Buy a pair from them and see where they're made.
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
No, I'm not saying that at all. I was commenting on Dragon's comment about paying taxes. Any other conclusion you drew from that is yours and not mine.
Well why didn't you say that in the first place??? LOL - no worries...moot point I guess.
This is simple, but not intuitive to your average person.
When you get optical goods from a traditional optical store you pay for:
1. Professional care. That is, you have to pay to feed and educate the professional. The professional is usually regulated by your government, has professional liability, etc. and that has its costs. You can do away with professional care, but you may need it at some point.
2. Retail conveniences. That is, if you like music, carpet, environment, being able to touch and feel, having someone craft a collection of good stuff, want to be able to park close, etc. there is a price associated with that.
3. Then and only then do we have materials costs. Granted, there may be an opportunity at this juncture as onliners slit each others' throats to gain marketshare, and there is economy of scale at some point, but that's only a fraction of what traditional opticals' price structure is.
To consumers: you have a choice. Choose whichever you prefer.
To governments: well, let's see if you're serious about regulation, or you're just punching a timecard. Or, is regulation just overkill?
To onliners: I hope you have a minute to reflect on what the moral aspect of your business is. I'm hoping you exercise some degree of ethics, but I seriously doubt you will.
Last edited by drk; 09-07-2010 at 02:01 PM.
I'd question this statement. Morality has nothing to do with it. Ethics, MAYBE. In a state that has no regulation about who can dispense, you can't force the ethics of a state that does on that person. People in any state are free to purchase where they want and from whom they want, so again, ethics and morality have nothing to do with it.To onliners: I hope you have a minute to reflect on what the moral aspect of your business is. I'm hoping you exercise some degree of ethics, but I seriously doubt you will.
That's certainly true enough for unlicensed states. But what about the states that have very stringent requirements for Opticianry that the onliners circumvent by shipping directly to the customer, breaking the law as far as that goes?
DragonlensmanWV N.A.O.L.
"There is nothing patriotic about hating your government or pretending you can hate your government but love your country."
You mention trained personnel, which may be a problem. In 27 states all that is required to be an Optician is a pulse. What training? We have allowed these kind of operations to take a solid foothold because, quite frankly, in many places the emperor has no clothes. We are generally very poorly trained at best, and offer no better products than anyone else.
Now, before all the folks here flame me too bad, consider objectively what I am saying, and you will clearly realize why I have fought for all these years to improve this profession. You don't see computer-based eye exams taking hold, and believe me, they are available. Folks would not really consider an auto-exam a substitute for a professional examination by an MD or OD, but in China, for example, it is the norm.
In the case of the Optician, we are so poorly defined across the country, and all have vastly disparate views of who and what an Optician is and should be doing. There is little evidence to support that folks see a great deal of difference in quality between the places they get their eyewear, and in fact, online operators report some data that indicate general patient satisfaction with online products; they have a perceived high value. Now, I know 100 people will reply angrily to this as well, indicating that they have patients that come from miles around to get their eyeglasses from them because of their excellent reputation and high levels of satisfaction. I am sure you do, but what we do not have is ANY hard data to show we are any better than anyone else. I encourage you to do an empirical study in your office. Measure patient satisfaction with your work, and report it. I know it will be positive, at least I have strong beliefs it will (maybe bias), but we need data. Folks, if we were doing everything so well, and people really valued our services, they would not dream of going online for their eyewear. I believe the relatively small percentage of folks purchasing online at least indicates so doubt about the process, and shows they may value us more than we may think, but we need valid and reliable proof we are really better. We have complained about the "girls" in doctors offices doing dispensing for years, and still have absolutely NO proof we are any better. This is an extension of that thought. Send us some validation......lets prove oursleves once and for all. The future depends on us.
Last edited by wmcdonald; 09-07-2010 at 03:30 PM.
Totally agree, if you want to see the professional side ANSI is the solution.
Now there are very good copies. How can you distinguish the original ones of the fake ones?
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