Got Asked for a PD Today (First Time)

[uncut]

@ golfnorth: I have and still am thinking about the different scenarios that we have come across. We have started to offer people assistance provided that we fill out an internet purchase Hazard assessment form, which details everything about the purchase, and taking their occupation, lifestyle into consideration, analyzes their purchase consequences. I tie this to them getting information to purchase, and for those who have purchased and request assistance.....they usually decline to participate, so no information out and no aftercare is pursued. WINwin?

[optical maven]

I really can't see this as a problem. If you provide a service, charge a fee. I see the internet like previous changes in the eyeglass business. When free frames first hit the market, we all scratched our heads as to how could they do that. They sucked business from us. We're still in business. If they want a PD, measure it, charge a fee, and then try talking to the person as to why they are shopping online. Everyone on this site shops for what they perceive to be value. Glasses are no different. If you are nice, the person may decide that their perceived deal wasn't much of one, and come back to next year.

[cleyes]

Reply to Jaqui's post on 6/10/10 You go girl! Completely agree with you. Suggest those royally screwed BC opticians do same.

[Judy Canty]

If you are nice, the person may decide that their perceived deal wasn't much of one, and come back to next year.

IF you're still in business...

[bob66hall]

Suggestion: Charge "walk-ins" a fee for the PD, but offer full credit for that fee toward the purchase of glasses from you...all done with smile. That way you establish a value for your service, you're not antagonizing a potential customer, AND you're breaking the ice for a sale.

The internet has marvelously "unbundled" the supply chain, and exposed a lot about the pricing and margins in each link. ECP's have enjoyed substantial margins in frame pricing. Those margins will certainly come under attack (already have). PD's may only be the tip of the iceberg of "unbundling."

[uncut]

IF you're still in business...

Touche'!!!!

[uncut]

Suggestion: Charge "walk-ins" a fee for the PD, but offer full credit for that fee toward the purchase of glasses from you...all done with smile. That way you establish a value for your service, you're not antagonizing a potential customer, AND you're breaking the ice for a sale.

The internet has marvelously "unbundled" the supply chain, and exposed a lot about the pricing and margins in each link. ECP's have enjoyed substantial margins in frame pricing. Those margins will certainly come under attack (already have). PD's may only be the tip of the iceberg of "unbundling."

Nice deflection........by a non-profit, and obviously " charitable organization
"

[bob66hall]

Nice deflection........by a non-profit, and obviously " charitable organization
"

No deflection...it was a sincere suggestion. Go back to the original outcome of the consumer encounter, quote:

"The young lady sheepishly turned around and walked out of my store without saying a thing and without a wimper. I can only speculate that she had heard no a few times before walking into my store."

So did it feel good so send the consumer packing? Maybe. And how did that benefit this retailer? Nada. And how many friends might this consumer tell about her frosty experience? Research says "many." Run your business as you wish. Chasing away consumers has never been part of my playbook.....bh

[KStraker]

I tell them something like: "Sorry, but I cannot give you the measurements to go and buy your glasses on line." Then I explain that we are in business to sell glasses ourselves, not to facilitate purchase elsewhere. Of course I don't use the word "facilitate", because it seems like many of our patients are truly not smarter than a 5th grader.

[uncut]

@bob66hall:

"ecp's have enjoyed substantial margins...." as if frame manufacturers and distributors have operated on slim margins?

By suggesting that dispensers help internutters by providing measurements, free or otherwise, would be the same as suggesting to a distributor that you supply your frames free to an online purchaser.

Some retail establishments, and professions do unload costly customers, stop carrying products that are inferior, or are difficult to service.

[Golfnorth]

Golfnorth,

When today's largest optical corporation purchased a majority steak of Frames Direct, which is the second largest on line retailer after Zenni's, they knew what they were doing. They did not take a risk, because they knew that they could get away with it.

We can even see it right here on OptiBoard, members shy away from any serious discussion what could happen to the profession and its suppliers within the next few years.

When a high quality manufacturer goes into direct competition with the professional retailer = their customers, on the lowest level of the professional scale, they must be out to kill for their own good.

Remembering times in the optical Europe when opticians had cartels and just about could force their suppliers to behave the way they wanted or else. These days are over and gone.



Yes they are not your customers, but maybe could have been, for sure they were somebodies customers. Maybe they have lost their jobs or lost half a fortune on the stock market, and now their pension is cut in half.
So they are searching for low prices out of necessity.

The recession is not over yet and a monetary collapse is coming closer with Europe in all these financial problems. Things will never go back to what we call normal, the way it was. The US has 30 million un-employed people and in Canada it also hovers around 10%.

So why not find a way that will let the professional make some money for his services instead of giving them away, or find a way of making the danger of the on-line opticals go away into the internet heaven.

regards
Chris R

Ok Chris tell me this, "Would you dispense information about the products that you sell for a small fee knowing that the person was about to order from a competitor of yours that sold similar products you had at prices you couldn't touch?"

Regards,
Golfnorth

[ManitobaOD]

The REAL problem you face is that the general public has no idea who or what an optician does and why you as a profession are relevant to vision care and the public. True we OD's are in the same boat, however our national and provincial associations have done a moderately good job of informing the public of what our profession does and why it's the public needs us. Some of you may choose to bash myself and other OD's but the fact remains that opticians have not done anything in the way of public awareness to elevate your status as health professionals.
An example, although a poor one is the comparison of a real estate agent, with no restricted acts to their name, real estate agents have made the public aware of the services they provide and the advantages of using their expertise, instead of "selling on your own." Again, some may want to bash what I say, but those same individuals need to nut-up and realize without public awareness you're doomed.

[uncut]

@ManitobaOD:

I am trying to figure out where in this thread any "bashing" of yourself or other ODs is.

The recent campaigns that your national and provincial associations implemented have gone a long way to raise public awareness. I personally applaud the effort.

[cleyes]

We face the most serious threat to our livelihood to date, and still beating ourselves up about how to give away our valuable professional services! Gee, maybe these freeloaders won't love us anymore! Boy will they be ****** when they can't waltz in for free advice, free parts, and free services ad infinitum!!!!!!! These people are USERS, in search of something for nothing. Ask any of them if they expect to be paid for their time. Very few are ever "converted" to clients, they just know this sucker optical person they can go to for help with their bargains.
I'd like to boot the first optician who gave away our valuable professional services, establishing a tradition that will be the death of us. I've said it before, post a menu of FEE FOR SERVICE, CLEARLY STATING THAT IT DOES NOT APPLY TO GLASSES PURCHASED AT YOUR ESTABLISHMENT. Your own patients will have a new insight and respect for their purchase when they see what is included as part of the cost of their GREAT new specs. Stress need for periodic adjustments and consultation for any problems with their eyewear over time. Explain to your patients if asked, you've been inundated by people purchasing "bargain, problem eyewear" who expect you to "fix" them for free.....after all, that's what opticians do! You can still quietly do charitable pro bono for select individuals as you choose, but this wholesale insecurity has to stop or we'll never be taken seriously' :hammer::hammer::hammer:

[Now I See]

Just out of curiosity, for those of you who charge for a PD, what do you do when a person that is buying glasses from you asks for their PD?

[Striderswife]

I've never thought about that. I guess, if I've ordered glasses for a patient, I've already performed the service of measuring their PD. I'm going to verify the Rx, and provide adjustments whenever they need it. Technically, that is absorbed in the cost of the glasses? When they pay the Dr. for the refraction, they (should) get a copy of their Rx. If they've paid for me to take a necessary measurement, I suppose they're entitled to it. If they ask for it, I'll give it. Albeit, with a funny look, like, "why????" ;)

[bpmowatson]

Heather A, Do you know were I can find what the Indiana Law is on the liabilities of giving P.D. to online buyers? Thanks for you help.

[elaneo]

Just out of curiosity, for those of you who charge for a PD, what do you do when a person that is buying glasses from you asks for their PD?

That's tough. You're still responsible if they ask for it, since it is your measurement. I would charge for service on that product if they buy (frame + lenses). Obviously you would have to know your product or just review a receipt to verify.
Have a form drawn up saying they're aware of what can happen and that there is a fee for other product serviced at your store. Then again in the long run you lose many future sales when they need glasses every year/2 years/when they think they need them.


My best idea to fight it is to figure out how I can say PDs are different for each job. Or say they are custom for each job and must be done (even if it is by the same person) each time for a frame (even if it is the same frame). It's easier for seg heights or OC height if anyone does them out there, but PDs are a little different.

Or has anyone had Pxs sign a consent form assigning their information (PD) to you when purchasing glasses saying it is custom for each job? I would find that odd if I were the Px, but it makes sense to do something like this if possible/legal if we want still be considered "health care professionals". Right now I have more people thinking I only sell glasses than I am a troubleshooting "obstatrician"...



On a side note, has anyone been faced with people that try on a frame in your shop, buy it cheaper online and then come back for lenses? I mean a sale is a sale, but does anyone have any feelings about this?

[Now I See]

Heather A, Do you know were I can find what the Indiana Law is on the liabilities of giving P.D. to online buyers? Thanks for you help.

Hi, bpmowatson!

I'm not sure...I'd have to do some checking...you might want to start with the insurance company that you purchase your liability insurance through, they may be able to direct you better/quicker than I can.

[Now I See]

....
My best idea to fight it is to figure out how I can say PDs are different for each job. Or say they are custom for each job and must be done (even if it is by the same person) each time for a frame (even if it is the same frame). It's easier for seg heights or OC height if anyone does them out there, but PDs are a little different.....

FWIW...
During continuing education, someone asked a similar question, something like this...if you have taken a PD on a patient in the past, is it necessary to take it again in the future? The answer was yes, you should take the measurement everytime, because subtle changes can take place over time.

[Chris Ryser]

FWIW...
During continuing education, someone asked a similar question, something like this...if you have taken a PD on a patient in the past, is it necessary to take it again in the future? The answer was yes, you should take the measurement everytime, because subtle changes can take place over time.

I did some checking on PD and found the simplest answer that is accessible to just about anybody in this world:

Pupillary distance

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Pupillary Distance (PD) or interpupillary distance (IPD) is the distance (the industry standard is to measure in millimeters) between the centers of the pupils in each eye. This measurement is used when preparing to make prescription eyeglasses. Positioning lenses correctly in relation to the centre of the pupils is especially important for higher powered lenses due to the location of the optical centre of the lenses. It can also be relevant to binoculars: they must be adjusted to suit the user's IPD; and the minimum allowed by some binoculars is still too great for people with a small IPD.

Measuring pupillary distance

Someone with training in the field of optics can accurately measure your pupillary distance, or you can make an approximate measurement yourself using a ruler, with someone’s assistance or a mirror. The measurement will usually be taken twice: 1st with the patient focusing at a distance, and 2nd with the patient focusing at something close. The second measurement is used for reading glasses, and bifocals however the rule of thumb is that the so-called "near PD" will be 4 millimetres less than the "far PD" when the far PD is over 60mm, or 3 millimetres less than the far PD when the far PD is undre 60mm. It is recommended, due to accuracy, to measure the PD with a pupilometer, however some practitioners take preliminary measurements with a millimeter ruler placed across the bridge of the nose. You can also measure your PD using a suitable photo and an online pupilometer.
In very young children and babies, where the patient is unlikely to stay still, the optical professional will typically measure from one medial canthus to the other lateral canthus. In this case, measurements are often inaccurate by a few millimetres.

.............and lots more about the issue

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pupillary_distance

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you can get all the information on the web for free. However you do not have the expirience to maybe do it properly.

Neither does the consumer have the expierience to properly fit the frame when it comes back from the lab.

I wonder when the first of the newest chains or franchises will pop up, called WG Service Station. (Web Glasses Servise Station) and do it all for a fee. Maybe they might even be eqiupped with samples of the frames the on liner sells and you suddenly have BM stores financed by the on liners, when they are ready to become physical and work on quantity.

[uncut]

Interestingly, as this thread was evolving, we had a situation where a long-time customer confronted a staff member about assisting her to purchase a pair on line. She suggested that she would buy a pair IF she was helped with information to also buy on line. She was told to take a hike.....

Yesterday she came back to order...............stand your ground people. Without your kind and generous assistance, and possibly liability, internutters cannot thrive.


"Here for a good time, not a long time...so have a good time. The sun can't shine every day."---Trooper.

[Chris Ryser]

Chris,

If you give a PD to a patient you might as well start your own online optical shop. If your going to advocate it in the patients eye's and you see it as a true inevitability then why settle for a dispensing fee when you can have the whole nut.

At least use a fee schedule of whatever each decides for work done out of the regular routine.

I don't believe that a regular B&M optician has the funds or the desire to have a real online shop.

Furthermore I do not think that the onliners are going to go away, so you will have to re-think the situation. Do like many optometrists across the country have done for many years, charge a dispensing fee for the specialized work you do instead of a flat all included price for the whole glasses..

The onliners sell a semi-finished product, which needs adjustments and care. Furthhermore most of them purchase and have all lab work done in China, so frames or lenses have never touched this continent before final delivery.

[uncut]

A "real" online shop.......???? I assume you mean a virtual shop, Chris?

[Chris Ryser]

Call it what you think is right..................to me if the actually sell, they are real...............if they pretend to sell the are virtual