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  1. #1
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    Zeiss vs. Hoya vs. Essilor vs. Shamir

    Can anyone tell me in terms of progressives, which ones are the best especially those complaining of peripheral distorsions? I've heard Shamir autograph II and Hoya id are great lenses, any good lenses in Zeiss?

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    Rochester Optical WFruit's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume that you are talking Free Form progressives.

    Zeiss = Individual

    Hoya = Hoya ID

    Shamir = Autograph II

    Essilor = Ideal

    Seiko = Succeed/Supercede

    I have heard very good things about all of them. We sell both the Seiko and Shamir designs and there seems to be a slight preference towards the Seiko's. However, you should have no trouble finding people who will say that one or the other is the best.

    Especially see post #12 in this thread for some good comparative information: http://www.optiboard.com/forums/thre...125#post343125
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

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    OptiWizard Yeap's Avatar
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    i agree that Hoya ID is a great lens. just another option for you, SolaOne HD.. Zeiss we have some feedback that the reading portion is a little narrower especially they have short corridor PAL before but far vision is great..
    Yeap


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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Depends entirely on: The patient, patient's lifestyle, the patients Rx, the patients expectations, the frame dimensions, frequently POW when required, lens material/features, and of course cost both to the practice and the patient.

    Apart from that, they're pretty much the same. ;):p:shiner::cheers::hammer:

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    Tried em all..and nothing comes close to Indo lifesyle Expert for edge to edge far vision. I can tell because I have compared them while watching my 92 inch home theater screen. I like the wide intermediate on the Hoya, Pentax perfas and Shamir autograph let you shorten the coridor to make reading and laptop use easier (like the little letters on the inside of the temples..). Physio 360 was up there too, even though its not truly freeform. Zeiss has had responses about a narrower intermediate..but as was said..when its freeform, every job will be different!

    I truly like the Indo expert for myopes, and its about the same price as regular varilux.(its not truly freeform either, but it works REALLY WELL)

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    Quote Originally Posted by snotbagel View Post
    I truly like the Indo expert for myopes, and its about the same price as regular varilux.(its not truly freeform either, but it works REALLY WELL)
    It is not?
    Why not?
    What makes it not *truly freeform*?

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    The software does not have inputs for panto, wrap , and vertex, ..no position of wear correctios. The surface ticket reads exactly as your ordered RX. A freeform lens will have at last SOME pow corrections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snotbagel View Post
    A freeform lens will have at last SOME pow corrections.
    Really?

    Is that what "freeform" really means?

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    Eyes eastward... Uilleann's Avatar
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    Sounds like some pretty heavy Zeiss/Shamir/Hoya brainwash to me! hehe :hammer::shiner::p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uilleann View Post
    Sounds like some pretty heavy Zeiss/Shamir/Hoya brainwash to me! hehe :hammer::shiner::p
    ** Edited **

    Uilleann,

    For someone who is so tired of all the company bashing you seem to be a professional at the craft. In my neck of the woods we have a name for that.
    Last edited by YrahG; 05-25-2010 at 10:15 AM.

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    Cape Codger OptiBoard Gold Supporter hcjilson's Avatar
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    Note: the rest of the original post has been deleted by me, to be continued by PM where it should have been to begin with.
    Last edited by hcjilson; 05-25-2010 at 08:41 AM. Reason: I felt like it.
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    OptiBoard Professional RT's Avatar
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    How would you categorize HOYALUX ID (free form generation on both sides) or HOYALUX ID Lifestyle (vertical progression on molded front, free form back surface includes horizontal elements of progressive, including inset)?
    RT

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    Quote Originally Posted by RT View Post
    How would you categorize HOYALUX ID (free form generation on both sides) or HOYALUX ID Lifestyle (vertical progression on molded front, free form back surface includes horizontal elements of progressive, including inset)?
    You ever have something that you just don't know what to do with, so you basically just ignore it? Yeah, that's what this is.....

    However, after some thought, I think I have an actual answer:

    First, the debate: By the definitions I posted above, these lenses really fit into neither catagory. They are not really molded lenses, but they also do not have a spherical front surface..... so what are they?

    I'm going to go with the opinion (my alone, not endorsed by anyone, though feel free to join in) that because each lens is custom made for each individual patient, and not massed produced, they are Free Form. I'm sure everyone at Hoya is thrilled to hear this:hammer:.

    Or perhaps to go with Hoya's Phoenix brand, they should be Phree Phorm.:cheers:
    There are rules. Knowing those are easy. There are exceptions to the rules. Knowing those are easy. Knowing when to use them is slightly less easy. There are exceptions to the exceptions. Knowing those is a little more tricky, and know when to use those is even more so. Our industry is FULL of all of the above.

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    OptiBoard Apprentice OptiMon's Avatar
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    Hoya has defined free-form on their website as such:"HOYA’s Free-Form design approach is based on the understanding that no two eyes are the same. Our patented Integrated Double Surface Design (IDSD) technology maps the specific rotation of each eye, creating the blueprint for lens construction. HOYA Free-Form Fabrication then uses diamond point tools to shape both sides of the lens to the exact specifications of your eye rotation." This obviously describes the Hoyalux ID which through dispensing, I have found to be the best, although the most expensive, fully free-form lens. The only other lens in this category is the Zeiss Individual, which I have Not dispensed. Every other "free-form" lens design are hybrid molded or spherical fronts with digital back side designs.
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    Hey Sancho.....you got me! :)

    Quote Originally Posted by drk View Post
    Sheriff Jilson rides again.
    I semi retire at the close of business tomorrow. No more tilting at windmills Sancho- it's high time to let the inmates run the asylum for a while. I plan to continue to moderate but am taking hands off when it comes to anything less than a violation of posting guidelines, and even then I probably will leave it for others to clean up.The other moderators and I have spent the better part of a lot of spare time trying to shape what appears as Optiboard today.Steve takes care of the techie stuff which is fine for a former hippie!:bbg::bbg: and the rest of us try to set the tone and keep a level playing field for you folks to play on. You will notice I never wore a badge as you can plainly see under my name, so I have nothing to hang up anyway!

    Some day perhaps, when the time is right, I will give you all the story behind the story of my defense of some of the companies that grew up with me. Some of them were built by friends of mine, now long gone.Those companies are sort of old friends and i have been offended by some of the half truths and outright lies that have appeared on these pages by those who attack without regard to the facts or the truth. This violated my sense of fair play and I wasn't afraid to let anyone know that. I call them the way I see them and that's just the way I am. I have no apology for that, but that will cease tomorrow....as a matter of fact, tonight because I've got to move my stuff tomorrow.

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    Last edited by hcjilson; 05-26-2010 at 09:41 PM. Reason: PS added
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    So far so good with a limited introduction of the Kodak Unique into the practice. Ice Tech does some truly amazing things in the realm of SV and PAL's in wrap frame designs.
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    We currently use the standard Physio as our bread and butter PAL. The occasional enhanced but thats far and few between. One of our docs is the office guinea pig and has tried the Individual, Physio 360, Hoya ID, and VSPs Reveal. As a mild myop with almost no astigmatism he doesn't see a dramatic difference between them. Noticeable, yes, but $100-$200 worth? Not really.
    Increase the Rx, cyl, etc. I'm sure the differences are greater but for the majority ... *hands in air*

    Sphinx

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    Sphinxsmith:
    The Physio used to be the bread and butter lens for us too. However, I think you should try the Seiko Supercede. We get it from our lab at LESS than the Physio AND it's an Internal Free Form lens - totally surfaced on the back. It delivers the WOW to patients with Rx's above 2.00 Sphere and/or above 1.00 cyl. It's a good way to improve your patient base and put quality lenses on a person for about the same price as the physio. Also try the free form SV lenses with the same criteria as above for those patients (we use Shamir Autograph II SV). It also gives the WOW factor.

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    So we have no "real" definition of what a "FreeForm" lens is or should be. My question is this though, why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)
    Would it not be simple to just select freeform lenses as the norm, because they can vary the corridors and eliminate a lot of distortion? And then fit these into whatever frame suits the patient (within limits)?
    Just asking for opinions on this way of thinking about lenses and options.
    It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IC-UC View Post
    why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)
    Cost. There is still a market for lower priced progressives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IC-UC View Post
    My question is this though, why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)
    Would it not be simple to just select freeform lenses as the norm, because they can vary the corridors and eliminate a lot of distortion? And then fit these into whatever frame suits the patient (within limits)?
    IMHO simply because the manufacturing technology for conventional PALs has been optimized so much over the years that the net profit per company expense if huge. Also I would assume that there are really not any NEW conventional PALs, but you choose a new shiny name for an old product with - at max - new different curve selection strategy - and you can claim that´s it´s a totally new product.
    Add some silly argument that "for the 1st time" it takes the details of the eye rotation ito account and you have it.

    ALSO, because the companies themselves know that the true advantages of "individual" lenses / free form over a good traditional design in many cases is only slightly more than marginal. (Will likely also apply to "true back surface design", but this would belong to a different thread.....)

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    So then it all boils down to marketing?
    If it was based on cost, just imagine if they did away with their warehouses full of ready made conventional PAL moulds and provided only those for FreeForm?
    You think they would pass they saving on to the customers??:finger:
    It’s so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don’t say it.

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    Physio Schmisio

    Quote Originally Posted by SailorEd View Post
    Sphinxsmith:
    The Physio used to be the bread and butter lens for us too. However, I think you should try the Seiko Supercede. We get it from our lab at LESS than the Physio AND it's an Internal Free Form lens - totally surfaced on the back. It delivers the WOW to patients with Rx's above 2.00 Sphere and/or above 1.00 cyl. It's a good way to improve your patient base and put quality lenses on a person for about the same price as the physio. Also try the free form SV lenses with the same criteria as above for those patients (we use Shamir Autograph II SV). It also gives the WOW factor.

    I am glad that you finally saw the light!

    :cheers::cheers::cheers:

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    I like Shamir products, but I think their top end PAL is well overhyped and here is my reason why:


    The benefits that make the Autograph premium:
    1. FreeFrame Technology - Adapt the corridor to the frame.
    2. As-Worn Technology - Compensations for vertex, panto, and faceform tilts.
    3. FreeForm - Fully back surface design.
    These three components make the Auto what it is. Well the lower cost FreeForm lenses don't have this technology built in so they are inferior in that respect, but they don't preclude the addition of these technologies. Here's what I mean:


    I like the:
    • Element
    • Element Short
    • Succeed
    • Succees WS
    These lenses have a cost comparable to traditionally surfaced products and they are produced as fully back surface PALs so they include the last technology FreeForm. Now if memory serves me correctly there have been numerous threads on this forum that discuss the formulas for compensating the powers for an As-Worn position. Actually befor eth Autograph was available


    Darryl Meister had:
    1. http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...ional-friendly) - A stand alone compensation program.
    2. http://www.opticampus.com/tools/tilt.php - A web based compensation program.
    HarryChiling had:
    1. http://www.optiboard.com/forums/show...rap-Calculator - A stand alone compensation program.
    Kbco had:
    1. http://www.kbco.net/wrapsolutions/accucalc.html - A stand alone compensation program (documentation seems to have references to Darryls programs so it may be a derivative of Darryl's work or may have been a colaboration.)
    So there are threee different companies provideing 3 different solutions for as worn technology which can be implemented by the optician on there end and as an added bonus the alogorythms in all cases have either been discussed here on this forum or are available in the documentation.


    As for th elast technology FreeFrame this is another way of saying our software put's our different PALs and your frame on a virtual layout chart. A member of this board Tony has a site with the majority of PAL brands cut out charts available:
    For me FreeFrame technology is as simple as making the choice between the Element and Element Short or the Succeed or the Succeed WS. To illustrate even further the new Physio and Comfort platform tout variabel seg heights this is doen by the lab making a choice between the standard or short corridor version. I am competent enough to make that decision myself so I don't need a technology to make that choice for me.

    So every one of the patented technologies that go into the top of the line PAL can be done in house before ordering and can allow any truly free form lens to be upgraded from base line to top of the line. I have been doing this for years and saving almost 50% of the cost of an Auto by utilizing the Element or Element Short while lately I have been into the Seiko designs with great success.
    Last edited by YrahG; 06-18-2010 at 10:45 AM.

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