Zeiss vs. Hoya vs. Essilor vs. Shamir

[drk]

Sheriff Jilson rides again.

[WFruit]

How would you categorize HOYALUX ID (free form generation on both sides) or HOYALUX ID Lifestyle (vertical progression on molded front, free form back surface includes horizontal elements of progressive, including inset)?

You ever have something that you just don't know what to do with, so you basically just ignore it? Yeah, that's what this is.....

However, after some thought, I think I have an actual answer:

First, the debate: By the definitions I posted above, these lenses really fit into neither catagory. They are not really molded lenses, but they also do not have a spherical front surface..... so what are they?

I'm going to go with the opinion (my alone, not endorsed by anyone, though feel free to join in) that because each lens is custom made for each individual patient, and not massed produced, they are Free Form. I'm sure everyone at Hoya is thrilled to hear this:hammer:.

Or perhaps to go with Hoya's Phoenix brand, they should be Phree Phorm.:cheers:

[hcjilson]

Hey Sancho.....you got me! :)

Sheriff Jilson rides again.

I semi retire at the close of business tomorrow. No more tilting at windmills Sancho- it's high time to let the inmates run the asylum for a while. I plan to continue to moderate but am taking hands off when it comes to anything less than a violation of posting guidelines, and even then I probably will leave it for others to clean up.The other moderators and I have spent the better part of a lot of spare time trying to shape what appears as Optiboard today.Steve takes care of the techie stuff which is fine for a former hippie!:bbg::bbg: and the rest of us try to set the tone and keep a level playing field for you folks to play on. You will notice I never wore a badge as you can plainly see under my name, so I have nothing to hang up anyway!

Some day perhaps, when the time is right, I will give you all the story behind the story of my defense of some of the companies that grew up with me. Some of them were built by friends of mine, now long gone.Those companies are sort of old friends and i have been offended by some of the half truths and outright lies that have appeared on these pages by those who attack without regard to the facts or the truth. This violated my sense of fair play and I wasn't afraid to let anyone know that. I call them the way I see them and that's just the way I am. I have no apology for that, but that will cease tomorrow....as a matter of fact, tonight because I've got to move my stuff tomorrow.

I also would like everyone to know that I don't hold grudges either except in two instances and they've both been banned long ago. I have the utmost respect for all who continue to post here....even though I may not agree with you. I have long suspected that even DrK has turned the corner...because lately he's been sounding like ME! YIKES!

[AWTECH]

By what should be (but isn't yet) the standard definitions:

Free Form = ALL progresssive power generated on the back surface of the lens. (ex: Shamir Autograph II, Seiko Succeed, Essilor Ideal (this is NOT a complete list of all Free Form lenses, just examples))

Digitally Surfaced = lens run through special software designed to more accurately calculate back curves and generated with said curves, usually front surface molded progressive (ex: Varilux 360 and Enhanced series, Definity (yes, I know the Definity has some of the power on the back, but the front is still molded)). In theory I could run any progressive (Image, VIP, Natural, etc.) through such software and call it "Digitally Surfaced."

You identified the problem many participants have with freeform and digital surfaced lenses. There are no clear definitions or accepted industry buzz words yet. Some are close but then the marketing minds at one company get the definitions to be something different.

"The lens the patient can see best with, is the best lens for that patient"

[saltcitywizkid]

Accolade Freedom(Essilor) is a fantastic digitally surfaced lens.
Patient's report almost no/minimul distortions.
Good results, good feedback.

[scriptfiller]

So far so good with a limited introduction of the Kodak Unique into the practice. Ice Tech does some truly amazing things in the realm of SV and PAL's in wrap frame designs.

[Sphinxsmith]

We currently use the standard Physio as our bread and butter PAL. The occasional enhanced but thats far and few between. One of our docs is the office guinea pig and has tried the Individual, Physio 360, Hoya ID, and VSPs Reveal. As a mild myop with almost no astigmatism he doesn't see a dramatic difference between them. Noticeable, yes, but $100-$200 worth? Not really.
Increase the Rx, cyl, etc. I'm sure the differences are greater but for the majority ... *hands in air*

Sphinx

[SailorEd]

Sphinxsmith:
The Physio used to be the bread and butter lens for us too. However, I think you should try the Seiko Supercede. We get it from our lab at LESS than the Physio AND it's an Internal Free Form lens - totally surfaced on the back. It delivers the WOW to patients with Rx's above 2.00 Sphere and/or above 1.00 cyl. It's a good way to improve your patient base and put quality lenses on a person for about the same price as the physio. Also try the free form SV lenses with the same criteria as above for those patients (we use Shamir Autograph II SV). It also gives the WOW factor.

[IC-UC]

So we have no "real" definition of what a "FreeForm" lens is or should be. My question is this though, why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)
Would it not be simple to just select freeform lenses as the norm, because they can vary the corridors and eliminate a lot of distortion? And then fit these into whatever frame suits the patient (within limits)?
Just asking for opinions on this way of thinking about lenses and options.

[Fezz]

Physio Schmisio

Sphinxsmith:
The Physio used to be the bread and butter lens for us too. However, I think you should try the Seiko Supercede. We get it from our lab at LESS than the Physio AND it's an Internal Free Form lens - totally surfaced on the back. It delivers the WOW to patients with Rx's above 2.00 Sphere and/or above 1.00 cyl. It's a good way to improve your patient base and put quality lenses on a person for about the same price as the physio. Also try the free form SV lenses with the same criteria as above for those patients (we use Shamir Autograph II SV). It also gives the WOW factor.

I am glad that you finally saw the light!

:cheers::cheers::cheers:

[SailorEd]

why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)

Cost. There is still a market for lower priced progressives.

[xiaowei]

My question is this though, why would the lens companies continue to design new conventional progressive lenses when FF or DS are supposed to be the future (or are they?)
Would it not be simple to just select freeform lenses as the norm, because they can vary the corridors and eliminate a lot of distortion? And then fit these into whatever frame suits the patient (within limits)?

IMHO simply because the manufacturing technology for conventional PALs has been optimized so much over the years that the net profit per company expense if huge. Also I would assume that there are really not any NEW conventional PALs, but you choose a new shiny name for an old product with - at max - new different curve selection strategy - and you can claim that´s it´s a totally new product.
Add some silly argument that "for the 1st time" it takes the details of the eye rotation ito account and you have it.

ALSO, because the companies themselves know that the true advantages of "individual" lenses / free form over a good traditional design in many cases is only slightly more than marginal. (Will likely also apply to "true back surface design", but this would belong to a different thread.....)

[IC-UC]

So then it all boils down to marketing?
If it was based on cost, just imagine if they did away with their warehouses full of ready made conventional PAL moulds and provided only those for FreeForm?
You think they would pass they saving on to the customers??:finger:

[Uilleann]

So then it all boils down to marketing?

Pretty much.




Look, as much as the vitrol tends to spew forth on these boards against the "Big E", *every* company will spin their product to be in some way, shape or form better than everything else out there. It's marketing 101, and it's done with great effect by just about every one the world's lens manufacturers large and small. What may on the surface appear to be a "better" or "cheaper" or "more accurate" way to you and I, may in fact be very different to a given company. We all have to remember that despite what we know about or profession, and what we would like to think we know about a given company, their level of R&D, technical skill and knowledge, product performance, and even marketing may vary widely - even within a single company over time.

If you ask me - ALL lenses from EVERY manufacturer are over hyped and over priced to a degree. But, this is the market we all choose to work within. My suggestion is that we all try to find the way we can best fit the model...because folks, it ain't changin anytime soon.

[HarryChiling]

My personal opinion and take it for what it's worth. The technology to create a free form lens is still in it's infancy compared to the traditionally molded technology. Their are limitations to the powers, cyls, prism, etc that can be surfaced. I believe that once these parameters are expanded to cover the large majority of the population you will see free form lenses replace most of the molded designs. Some manufacturers are continuing to invest money into molded designs still to date and the equipment still exists in the marketplace to justify the traditionally molded route, but time will tell. Their used to be a time when you ordered a plus cyl and the cyl was ground on the front, this was the norm, nowadays they transpose and grind it on the back, this was due to a reduced number of tools that had to be stocked and the ease of picking those tools. Free form offers the same advantages to the lens inventory, except the entire inventory can not be replaced yet.